American Politics

[hazeh]

Having to pay a certain constant of tax for Health insurance (based on your current income so that it IS affordable) is a hell of a lot cheaper than having taxes be run up because the government has to try and give hospitals the money to keep working because people go the ER and get outrageous medical bills that they can't pay and ultimately the hospital had to write off.

 

 

Edit: I'm glad to pay taxes because, ya know, I actually want my country to function.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[Fuzzbucket]

Incidently we ran a comparison (several years back now, I admit) on what the NHS (via National Insurance) was costing those of us in the UK vs what private medical insurance was costing some of the people in the US.... we worked out that our National Insurance actually costs us *less*, and still manages to cover everyone.

 

I'm not saying the NHS is perfect, it isn't, but it's a damned sight better than the system you guys seem to have. And it doesn't cost as much as a lot of you seem to think it would.

Absolutely. (I was in the NHS at the time, and I remember that study very well.) Even now - with the stupid things that have been set up, admin is running at something like 17% - WAY less than in countries where insurance is used instead. And there is no price gouging because there is no-one to gouge - a government sets the budgets - end of. You operate within them - and with no doctors who LOVE to bill high because it's on the insurance etc, the costs stay sensible.

 

From another area - a few years ago my car was in an accident. I phoned my road recovery service, who told me I wasn't covered for an accident, and my insurance company who told me to call my recovery service and...

 

..well, you know how it all goes...

 

I was sure this was wrong and I knew I would sort it later - but I was blocking the road, so I called my friendly neighbourhood tow truck, who took me where I wanted to be for a reasonable - but NOT a personal favour ! - sum. I later got the money back and happened to mention when I was passing that the insurance had in the end paid up. "Hell, if I'd known it was covered by insurance I'd have charged 4 times as much" he said.

 

That says it all, and that is what is so wrong with insurance based healthcare - healthcare that should be an absolute right for all, and paid for from taxes. Everyone bills up - because they can, because big companies pay out these ludicrous sums (unless they can find a reason in their policy to get out of paying up...) And these companies, by the way have to make PROFITS for SHAREHOLDERS - which is another total waste of money that could pay more nurses....

 

Sure buy insurance for extras if you like - but don't leave someone in need of an amputation sitting there unable to pay for it. Some day that person who dies for want of coverage may be your own child.

Edited August 31, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[Kestra15]

So, Mitt Romney may have an actual chance. I pity the United States - and feel afraid for the safety of the Middle East - should he make it in.

Free health care is not a RIGHT it is a privilege.  One thing I've noticed is that the Democrats are too liberal and the Republicans are too conservative.

 

Why do people always have to take everything to extremes.

No, it is a basic human right, and any country that cannot provide - or, more precisely, can provide it but chooses not to because everyone is too busy chasing dollar signs - does not have the right to view itself as any major first-world power.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Kestra15

[Wantdew]

So, Mitt Romney may have an actual chance. I pity the United States - and feel afraid for the safety of the Middle East - should he make it in.

 

No, it is a basic human right, and any country that cannot provide - or, more precisely, can provide it but chooses not to because everyone is too busy chasing dollar signs - does not have the right to view itself as any major first-world power.

1: Why do WE care about the Middle East?

 

2: HOW is it a basic human right?

[inlaterdays]

1: Why do WE care about the Middle East?

 

2: HOW is it a basic human right?

1. You're kidding, right? They are human beings. We, as human beings, should care about other human beings.

 

2. You do realize that we are the ONLY first-world nation WITHOUT government health care? The reason Republicans don't want it is because privatized health care brings in the private bucks. They want to be able to keep bragging about "my son the doctor" who makes millions and spends every Friday on the golf course. It's not about choice at all. It's about selfish, selfish, greedy people who don't care that other people are DYING because they can't afford medications/treatments that are readily available in this country but which are too expensive for them.

 

Last winter, a friend's neighbor died in her home because her insurance suddenly dropped coverage for her heart medication and it was extremely expensive. Her son discovered her body when he came to visit. Things like this should not happen in a country that calls itself civilized.

[Kestra15]

1:  Why do WE care about the Middle East?

 

2:  HOW is it a basic human right?

...I am not going to dignify either of those with an answer. If I actually have to explain why world politics and the stability of the Middle East affect you as a person, or why that providing the basic ability to care and sustain the lives of others is an important, basic right, then clearly there are too many failings in your education for me to be able to successfully explain this to you over the internet - either that, or you are still far too young/immature to understand.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Kestra15

[demonicvampiregirl]

1:  Why do WE care about the Middle East?

 

2:  HOW is it a basic human right?

Are you that closed minded? Do you only seriously care for yourself and your country? If that's the case why are you even on this thread if you don't care about others at all. People are dying and getting hurt by the day and nothing is being done.

 

It's a basic human right to have the proper health care. Would you like it if any of your basic rights were taken away?

 

 

Last winter, a friend's neighbor died in her home because her insurance suddenly dropped coverage for her heart medication and it was extremely expensive. Her son discovered her body when he came to visit. Things like this should not happen in a country that calls itself civilized.

 

Omg this is horrible!

Edited September 1, 2012 by demonicvampiregirl

[Wantdew]

That is horrible. But you all seem to be avoiding my questions instead of answering them.

 

I don't have health insurance, I'm a republican I'm not on welfare, BECAUSE I'm not lazy. Don't fight that last statement with all these "people are in poverty" crap, I know that. A lot of the fat or lazy people are on welfare too.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Wantdew

[demonicvampiregirl]

That is horrible.   But you all seem to be avoiding my questions instead of answering them.

 

I don't have health insurance, I'm a republican I'm not on welfare, BECAUSE I'm not lazy.  Don't fight that last statement with all these "people are in poverty" crap, I know that.  A lot of the fat or lazy people are on welfare too.

 

My family was on welfare for a bit because my father tried to get his leg removed and couldn't and we couldn't get SSI because we got turned down on the first try. Not everyone has enough money to be able to afford it. By the sounds of it you haven't been poor a day in your life so you don't have a clue what it's like to live in it. The fear of losing your own house because your parents can't afford the mortgage and have to borrow from your grandparents a few times is scary as hell and not something I want anyone to go through.

Edited September 1, 2012 by demonicvampiregirl

[Wantdew]

I've gone on welfare on multiple occasions, but we always pull out and right now we are about "average" in wealth.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Wantdew

[demonicvampiregirl]

It's not fun now is it? Do you think it's fun to watch your own father have to suffer with a bad leg because no one wants to remove it?

 

People are poor anymore. The ones who wont work and are on Welfare I get that they shouldn't be on it but I'm not going to tell them that they can't. That's up to someone else and not me. I don't agree that they should be but I'm not going to argue it either.

 

I don't care if you are republican but not caring about the people around you is just cruel in my opinion. American or not these people matter and not everyone who is foreign is bad. One person doesn't make up for a whole country.

 

They do need help themselves. I don't agree with America stepping in each and every time someone cries for help because we got our own issues to solve before hand. But that does not mean I don't care about them.

 

I can say here and now I'm not a very proud American. The crap we pull on our own people is disgusting enough let alone what we do to other people.

 

People need health care and they are not getting it. Not everyone is rolling in money and can afford to buy it.

[inlaterdays]

How are people avoiding your questions? You've received direct answers to the questions you asked. Maybe try rephrasing.

 

And welfare is not for the "fat and lazy". Those two adjectives don't really go together; you realize - that's a stereotype. You seem to be stereotyping quite a lot.

 

I'm thin and lazy. I know overweight people who are dynamos of energy and work two jobs.

 

There are also fat and/or lazy people who live on inherited wealth.

 

But getting back to welfare - it's there for people who need it, and it should be. Example: a friend of mine, who has two college degrees, was on welfare for a short time. She was a new mother who had just gone through an expensive divorce and had no family to help her out financially. She had a baby to take care of and an ex who had decided he didn't care. He was supposed to pay child support but didn't. She had to declare bankruptcy. (Divorce is INCREDIBLY expensive in some states.)

 

She was on welfare temporarily while she got back on her feet, just so she could feed herself and her child.

 

She's long off welfare by now, got an excellent job, worked hard to restore her credit rating, and has recently remarried and had a second child. She worked hard and I mean HARD. Welfare is not a free and easy handout. It's there to help people who just plain need help.

 

There are abusers of every system, unfortunately. Look at all the white collar workers who go to jail or pay heavy fines for tax fraud or insider trading.

[prairiecrow]

I don't have health insurance, I'm a republican I'm not on welfare, BECAUSE I'm not lazy.

Wow, the old "poor people are lazy and therefore don't deserve any help" argument. Which completely ignores the fact that many hard-working people can't find jobs to sustain themselves or their families in your presently very badly messed-up economy.

 

By the way, Wantdew, you didn't answer my questions earlier. Could you take a moment to address them? Here they are again:

 

So, you're saying that you're perfectly fine with people dying for no reason other than that they're poor? That you're fine with people losing their mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, wives and husbands, and daughters and sons because they don't have enough money to save their lives?

 

I just want to be clear on that point. 

[Wantdew]

I DO care about the people around me, but I really don't want to be using an expensive plan. Wait, who HAS been helped by Obama care yet, specifics?

Edited September 1, 2012 by Wantdew

[inlaterdays]

I DO care about the people around me, but I really don't want to be using an expensive plan.  Wait, who HAS been helped by Obama care yet, specifics?

 

"Obamacare Helped Me: Real Stores From Real Americans": http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/06/30/1...-Real-Americans

 

And there are LOTS of stories. Google around a bit.

Edited September 1, 2012 by inlaterdays

[demonicvampiregirl]

Wow, the old "poor people are lazy and therefore don't deserve any help" argument. Which completely ignores the fact that many hard-working people can't find jobs to sustain themselves or their families in your presently very badly messed-up economy.

 

By the way, Wantdew, you didn't answer my questions earlier. Could you take a moment to address them? Here they are again:

 

Prairie I love you for this post!

 

My parents both worked jobs and at one point was still struggling to pay. The place my dad worked at was messing around and cutting pay all the time when they wasn't supposed to and at one point we could afford to visit the mall and watch a movie almost each week. Then they started to cut it and soon we found ourselves at a point where we couldn't pay much on the bills. Mom got a job around this point and it still didn't help much. We was on Welfare and I think a couple other things to get by and still had to borrow from my grandparents.

 

We also was getting free food from this one church to help keep food in the house.

[Wantdew]

"Obamacare Helped Me: Real Stores From Real Americans": http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/06/30/1...-Real-Americans

 

And there are LOTS of stories. Google around a bit.

Ohh... interesting.

[demonicvampiregirl]

I DO care about the people around me, but I really don't want to be using an expensive plan. Wait, who HAS been helped by Obama care yet, specifics?

So wait you don't want to be using an expensive plan? Have you LOOKED at the amount of money most healthcare plans cost now? My dad has a bad leg and has a crappy healthcare plan for it. :/

[LascielsShadow]

So wait you don't want to be using an expensive plan? Have you LOOKED at the amount of money most healthcare plans cost now? My dad has a bad leg and has a crappy healthcare plan for it. :/

Exactly. "Expensive" is what you call the sad excuse for a healthcare system we have now. We waste billions in payouts because costs for treatments and medications get jacked up as high as they're allowed to be, policy prices can be ridiculous and coverage, to say the least, not always terribly good, and the CEOS of the companies make obscene amounts of money off the people they're insuring. Insurance companies drop people when they actually need to use their insurance, meaning they've pretty much just wasted all the money they paid for it, and there's nothing those people can do. People go bankrupt from medical expenses all the time. That's an expensive plan.

 

The ACA (because apparently, I need to repeat myself here) will SAVE billions in the long run. Of course there's a start-up cost to get it going, but after that, we will see massive savings due to the reduction in waste spending, not to mention the reining in of things like price-gouging and that "lifetime coverage cap" nonsense. Taxes will only go up on specific tax brackets (200k a year and above), and in specific situations (like if you use an FSA and put over a certain amount of money in it-the money over that gets taxed).

Edited September 1, 2012 by LascielsShadow

[hazeh]

For people the Obamacare plan has helped:

 

When I lived in Las Vegas, I met this girl in fifth grade (she was in sixth) who quickly became my best friend. We lived in the same neighborhood and always hung out together, playing video games or exploring and chatting on the phone. She was an amazing person. I don't remember what her mom worked as, but her Father was/is an Ozzy Osbourne impersonator and was damn good.

When I went into sixth grade, Lexi and I got busy with school and I didn't see her much because we were in different grades. I remember it was some time in like, March or April when I realized I hadn't talked to her in months, so I grabbed the phone and called her for a chat.

 

Turns out, in January Lexi had contracted a rare form of cancer from a tumor that had wrapped around her spine and rendered her unable to walk. Luckily they caught it early enough that she was treatable and was rehabilitated. But because her parents couldn't afford the expensive treatment for their 12 daughter, both of them had to quit their jobs so that they could qualify for Medicaid. Since then, Lexi's family has not been able to find an insurance that would take them because of Lexi's pre-existing condition.

 

Now, with Obamacare, Lexi can get the insurance she needs and REMAIN on it, alongside all the thousands of other children that need it too.

 

So I find it incredibly deplorable to be against something such as Obamacare.

 

 

Edit:

 

The good majority of people on Welfare are NOT lazy. They are hard working people that struggle to make ends meet. Did no one read what I posted earlier about how around 50% of people on welfare rotate out by the next year? I have an aunt that was born and raised on welfare and although she has gone to school and received her high school diploma and works two jobs for her and her child, still cannot afford the expenses. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a family that is wealthy enough to keep them stable for the majority of their lives.

 

My mom had to be on welfare for a while when I was first born, and she labored day in and day out to provide for the both of us. It was once she met my other mom that she was able to get back on her feet, go to school, and become a kickass nurse.

 

So the whole "people on welfare are just lazy freeloaders" is total crap. Don't punish the many for the actions of a few.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Shiny Hazard Sign

[prairiecrow]

The good majority of people on Welfare are NOT lazy. They are hard working people that struggle to make ends meet. Did no one read what I posted earlier about how around 50% of people on welfare rotate out by the next year? I have an aunt that was born and raised on welfare and although she has gone to school and received her high school diploma and works two jobs for her and her child, still cannot afford the expenses. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a family that is wealthy enough to keep them stable for the majority of their lives.

 

My mom had to be on welfare for a while when I was first born, and she labored day in and day out to provide for the both of us. It was once she met my other mom that she was able to get back on her feet, go to school, and become a kickass nurse.

 

So the whole "people on welfare are just lazy freeloaders" is total crap. Don't punish the many for the actions of a few.

It's a common Republican theme, though: that the "fat, lazy welfare queens" are stealing "good, decent, hard-working 'Murkins" blind and that it shouldn't be tolerated. In my opinion they're whipping up resentment based on lies to sell their political agenda... that, and many of them genuinely believe (in accordance with the horrible ethics of the Prosperity Gospel) that if you don't have money, you're manifestly less blessed by God and therefore more sinful/undeserving/evil than the rich are.

 

It's disgusting and it's sad, but alas, it seems to be selling.

Edited September 1, 2012 by prairiecrow

[LascielsShadow]

It's a common Republican theme, though: that the "fat, lazy welfare queens" are stealing "good, decent, hard-working 'Murkins" blind and that it shouldn't be tolerated. In my opinion they're whipping up resentment based on lies to sell their political agenda... that, and many of them genuinely believe (in accordance with the horrible ethics of the Prosperity Gospel) that if you don't have money, you're manifestly less blessed by God and therefore more sinful/undeserving/evil than the rich are.

 

It's disgusting and it's sad, but alas, it seems to be selling.

Exactly. It really started with Reagan and the "welfare queen with 80 names and 30 addresses" nonsense and has persisted over the years as a racist RW bogeyman. (Let us not forget exactly what colour this hypothetical "welfare queen" was supposed to be-that's key to the entire thing.) A lot of people resolutely cling to the idea that trickle-down economics work, and if you aren't rich, or at least comfortably middle class, then you just aren't working hard enough/don't deserve it. It's the sort of mindset that frames having to work two jobs as a good and desirable thing-the American Way, you know. (Ew, the Prosperity Gospel-I could rant on *that* stupidity for a good while. It makes me furious.)

 

They're most definitely lying and whipping up resentment to further their political agenda. I keep hearing so many dogwhistles it's not funny.

Edited September 2, 2012 by LascielsShadow

[Rosedamai]

1:  Why do WE care about the Middle East?

 

2:  HOW is it a basic human right?

1. I hate quoting myself but-

Because...people are getting killed and it's really a quagmire of a war?

If you really don't want to care about it, pull your troops out, and stop getting into Mid-east politics. You guys interfered in middle east politics first and now you're asking why we should care? That's like a person knocking over every single vase in a china shop and then asking why they should pay for them.

 

2. WHO says: ""the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health is one of the fundamental rights of every human being..." This shows that the right to health it is a fundamental human right, closely linked to human happiness. Most countries seem to understand that it is a basic human right and that none of its citizens should be deprived of it for having no money, and thus set up a national health care system of some sorts to make sure that no one's right to health gets violated.

 

And please tell us that we have it bad with a health care system, that we have to "wait for months" and such. I do know that in my country, we don't. And it's not like you Americans don't have to wait either.

 

Welfare queens? Please show me some statistics about how many of them exist. I keep hearing this but as this is not the case in most countries I don't think why the U.S should be an exception to the rule and be filled to the brim with lazy people who just "take advantage of the system" because, you know, the system's designed to stop people from doing exactly that. And even if there are people who are lazy and whatnot, then you have to re-design the process of screening people for welfare, not get rid of it altogether.

Edited September 2, 2012 by ylangylang

[SnowSherry]

Obama is not serious about change, the economy's getting worse.

 

And the republicans are an even more terrible nightmare

[Kestra15]

Obama is not serious about change, the economy's getting worse.

He is, and everything he's put in place - or tried to put in place - is to help your economy. The failing of the American economy and the fact that it is not recovering is not Obama's fault, no more than it is Cameron's, Clegg's or Brown's. There is a global recession which means everywhere is feeling it, and everyone is in the crap. Consider Europe; we currently have three countries that are requiring continental support because their economies have full-on collapsed. Most other countries are falling apart - very few are holding together economically. It doesn't help that a large part of the Middle East and North Africa have, in the last eighteen months, been in a state of civil unrest, civil uprising, civil war, or internal/international wars. Every economy is feeling the strain, not just America.

 

Obama has been given a massive crap-sandwich thanks to the Bush administration. Stuck in two very expensive, very unpopular wars, an economy that was nose-diving, in a country that at the best of times is a social mess. He's managed to do a heck of a lot to turn around not only the mess the USA has been in, but to undo the damage done by Bush Jr and Bush Sr in terms of political and social standing in the world. Americans are still laughed at - just like every nation is for their stereotypes - but your political and social popularity has increased dramatically now you have a guy in charge who actually tries to make your country a better place.

 

It does anger me, however, when so many people seem to assume Obama is personally responsible for the mess that your country is still in. It's because you've had a couple of decades of poor decisions and administrations, alongside global problems, that means that he's been given a tough job. And I tell you what - every non-American out here thinks he's the best guy for the job.