American Politics

[Fuzzbucket]

Have you ever seen a POOR PERSON GIVE SOMEONE A JOB!!!

 

This question throws people, when I ask it. Will anyone asnswer that question.

 

If someone chooses to go and work their tails off to make it big, why should they pay more, sorry. Oh, I work for a company, so I am not rich, lol.

 

I am lucky I have someone to give me a job, or I would starve. You have people out there that would rather be in on welfare than to clean toilets. You have people out there having many babies so they can be on welfare and not have to work. You have people who drop out of school, is that my fault, no it is not. I could go on and on about the lazy people in this country who want handouts and the democrats love to give handouts. Others love for the rich to have to pay their way as well. To me what I earn is mine, not YOURS,

 

I am not happy with Mitt Romney myself, but he is the lesser of two evils in my opinion. I do not like what Obama stands for. I do not care who is in office, I do not always agree with everything they do.

Yes, actually, I have. Someone starting out with almost nothing gave me a job, way back in the late 70s.

 

And why shouldn't people who have HEAPS of money help out others who don't ? Mostly they have heaps of money as a direct result of exploiting those who don't.

 

I am sorry to say that you come over as rather selfish here. I choose to share what I have - which isn't a whole lot - where I can, by supporting children in poor countries, as I live in a rich one where taxes - yes TAXES !!!, paid by those who DO have a decent income - support those who need it - on the whole - though capitalism is trying to put paid to that in the UK, I am sorry to say.

 

I think MOST decent Americans would choose to do the same.

[prairiecrow]

I think MOST decent Americans would choose to do the same.

There seems to be a myth among many Republicans that poor people are rolling in cash (or its equivalent in food stamps) and laughing at those stupid people who actually WORK for a living.

 

There also seems to be an attitude of "I've got mine, so to heck with the rest of you!"

 

The first is a myth and the second is appallingly mercenary, but I fear that those points of view might end up carrying the day in the USA. If that happens... well, in my opinion the bad situation there is going to get a LOT worse. History is full of examples of what happens when the downtrodden rise up against their overlords, and the Occupy movement was, I predict, just a slight taste of things to come.

Edited August 23, 2012 by prairiecrow

[7Deadly$ins]

I find the whole healthcare debate to be one of the most selfish things I've ever witnessed. Even worse when I find most of the people taking this stance consider themselves Christians.

[prairiecrow]

I find the whole healthcare debate to be one of the most selfish things I've ever witnessed. Even worse when I find most of the people taking this stance consider themselves Christians.

Exactly. Whatever happened to "go forth and heal the sick and clothe the naked" and all that jazz that Christians are actually told to do?

 

When I see Neo-Pagans and atheists being more generous in that regard than some Christians, it's just plain sad.

[Rosedamai]

President Obama is gradually transforming America into a socialist authoritarian state.

Trust me, I've an authoritarian state up there in the North, and Obama is nothing like them. Well technically it's communist, but at this point I'd think the whole social infrastructure is warped in a way that's very strange and doesn't deserve to be called communist. I really don't get the "Obama is socialist" thing. I wish there were people from Nordic countries who can answer this.

 

And yes I've seen poor people give somebody a job.

Edited August 23, 2012 by ylangylang

[Alpha1]

No - to vote the way you WANT to is a real choice. Choosing one that is the least worst isn't voting for what you want. It is tactical voting, perhaps, but isn't what you WANT.

 

This seems kind of childish. I can't get what I want, so I won't vote for my second pick. Nobody cares if people write in Mickey Mouse or Vermin Supreme. In the U.S., this can make some sense if you're not in a swing state, but otherwise it really doesn't. Not to mention, a lot of these same people probably complain about Bush's policies or whatever candidate that could have lost had they voted differently.

 

But if that's what makes you feel better. *shrugs*

 

[snip] Which would elect party B - but they would have a PRETTY good idea how careful they would have to be to stay in power....

 

What would you do ?

 

They'll just hope you'll still exercise declining your ballot if polls indicate these voters are dissatisfied.

 

Congressional job approval hit 10 percent recently. You can't go much lower.

 

As someone who is quote 'wasting her vote' by not voteing republican or democrat I resent that! The people who think that way to me don't seem to understand that if we can't vote for who we want and are limited to two parties and that's the way it is don't seem to realize that the elections are rigged that way!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasted_vote

 

I'm a fan of instant run-off voting and proportional representation as well.

 

PR-STV is a proportional representation form of IRV. IRV still allows two parties to dominate. Delayed run-off voting is the uncompressed form of IRV. Most people think one round must obviously be better, but in delayed runoff, it's honest voting after the first round. In IRV, people will rank the major parties strategically.

 

Range voting and reweighted range voting (the PR form) are better.

 

 

 

Have you ever seen a POOR PERSON GIVE SOMEONE A JOB!!!

 

This question throws people, when I ask it. Will anyone asnswer that question.

 

Consumers help create jobs by consuming goods and services.

 

If someone chooses to go and work their tails off to make it big, why should they pay more, sorry.

 

Why does a college president make more than Obama?

 

What do you think of John Edwards' earnings as an ambulance chaser?

 

 

 

 

 

[Rosedamai]

Meh. I still think that voting is a legitimate way of expressing your views, if your votes are "wasted" in the long run by not having an effect on the outcome, you still expressed yourself, which I think is the point others are trying to get across.

 

You have people out there that would rather be in on welfare than to clean toilets. You have people out there having many babies so they can be on welfare and not have to work.

Statistically, that amounts to about a big fat zero, so they don't really have any effect on society.

 

If someone chooses to go and work their tails off to make it big, why should they pay more, sorry. Oh, I work for a company, so I am not rich, lol.

But this isn't what happens anymore. We have those "success stories" there for a reason. It's on the news for a reason. It's because they're very very very rare nowadays. Most people nowadays are either born rich or born relatively rich, and they work their way up from there.

 

lazy people in this country who want handouts

That's a bit biased against the poor people who exist in any country. Are you saying that they're all lazy? They're not. Some of them genuinely work hard and get nowhere. I see all these examples that people throw at me of "lazy people having so many kids" but I can't find them anywhere in real life.

 

Yes, what I earn is mine. But, as a productive member of a society, you've got to recognize the benefits the society has given you and pay back to stabilize the society so it can keep giving benefits to everyone else. You used public roads that were built by taxes. You used public education. You used workers, who are educated by the same education process that the society gave out. These people are all there by the virtue of the public. And I think it's my duty to pay back.

[Alpha1]

I also might add that at a certain point, you're rather secured. Romney can make millions of dollars doing nothing because of investments. Apple sells new product to consumers. Consumers buy it. Stock goes up. Rob-me's net worth increases.

 

Another big one is real estate and land values. Donald Trump squats and makes billions. Society adds value to the land, yet they profit.

 

That's a bit biased against the poor people who exist in any country. Are you saying that they're all lazy? They're not. Some of them genuinely work hard and get nowhere. I see all these examples that people throw at me of "lazy people having so many kids" but I can't find them anywhere in real life.

 

Well, this is one example of how believing in free will makes people less compassionate. Laziness is a condition. There's a reason why someone isn't motivated.

 

Some of them genuinely work hard and get nowhere.

 

I think some people don't realize that not everyone can have a high paying job, and reducing the barriers of entry (e.g. reducing standards in educational attainment, for example) would bring down the pay of whatever job it is in regards to.

 

A good example is how the U.S. doesn't accept a lot of qualified students into nursing programs each year. Or how hundreds of applicants can be applying for the same position as a firefighter, but only one person gets it. In CA and many other parts of the country, this is having an effect on future employment. Several cities have decided to keep the ridiculous pensions that are worth more than $3 million, so now less people will be hired.

 

Or

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_%28economics%29

 

Wages remain "sticky", so unemployment increases.

[MysticTiger]

American Politics makes me really angry. I personally think the entire system should be looked over, cut the no longer need functions of the government and reestablish a government based on MODERN society. I don't mean toss out everything, I mean update it. Our government really hasn't changed that much over the years but look how much the world has changed. For example, Technology is a very big part of our everyday lives. Yet, barely anyone in the governmental system knows anything about technology. That's why these silly speeches about the internet being a series of tubes keep happening. If you're in the government, you should be knowledgeable. You shouldn't just be there because you can pay to be hired in.

 

And don't even get me started about the political ads. They are a complete joke. Not a single one of them tells me anything about the actual person who's trying to be president. They tell me what they believe the other person is doing wrong (more then half of it made up or stretched in a way that makes something innocent look deadly) or what they did in their past.

 

Mitt Romney is a complete joke. I seen an interview with him in which he outright said "there's no difference between middle america and rich america" when talking about living... Excuse me? What are you doing trying to be president if you don't know there is a MAJOR difference between the two largest social economic groups? Not that I would have voted for him regardless. You may come from Michigan, but you sure as heck are NOT a Michigander.

 

I like Obama more as a PERSON. Plus, without his "Obamacare", I would have been uninsured around the time I had a brain aneurysm and would have died had I not had insurance. Do I think he's a perfect candidate? Heck no. He's better then Romney but he still is out of touch. I can see what he's TRYING to do but I think he's going about it wrong. And besides, this stupid idiotic old people rumor that Obama is the Anti-Christ or Obama is Hitler or whatever moronic thing they're saying now just makes me want to root for the guy more. Would I vote for him? No. But, if I had a gun to my head and HAD to vote, then yes.

 

I don't think there are any good candidates, so I won't vote. I hate how run by money our government is. That is one of the biggest problems. Just thinking about it makes my head hurt. It's just so angering.

 

I feel like the only way I would ever vote for a president is if they made me a candidate. Because I know exactly where I stand, what I would do first and what my priorities are. Something candidates never seem to want to disclose.

 

Also, slightly off topic, but I think government "hand outs" should be more monitored. You'd be surprised at the amount of abuse that goes on with systems like Unemployment Insurance and Food Stamps. I see the Food Stamp abuse everyday at work. It's sickening.

Edited August 24, 2012 by MysticTiger

[7Deadly$ins]

I would still vote even if I thought there were no good options. If you don't vote, it isn't like no one will win. You might as well chose the best among them.

[Fuzzbucket]

This seems kind of childish. I can't get what I want, so I won't vote for my second pick. Nobody cares if people write in Mickey Mouse or Vermin Supreme. In the U.S., this can make some sense if you're not in a swing state, but otherwise it really doesn't.

I didn't say I WOULDN'T vote. I said I had no REAL choice, as my REAL vote, the one I would like to give, wouldn't count for diddlysquat. I ALWAYS vote. I have ONCE declined a ballot. Parties were not involved; it was for a mayor, and all three candidates were totally corrupt (everyone knew this; their misdeeds and kickbacks were all over the press.) I didn't care which of them won. Whichever did, it would have been a bad idea for the city.

 

I have a vague recollection that whoever did was SO bad there was another election within the year - but it was ages ago, and I forget.

 

If someone chooses to go and work their tails off to make it big, why should they pay more, sorry.

Because they have more - which they got off the rest of us.... Either by our buying whatever they make, or by exploiting us to make or sell it. OR by inheriting it from others who had done that - for instance, those ultra rich Americans whose original family wealth came from the slave trade..

 

For the record, I have spent long periods unemployed. NOT from choice, but because even with three college degrees and a slew of other qualifications - there simply were no jobs. I did get one for a while stacking shelves in a supermarket - I rather liked it actually - but I was fired when they realised I had more qualifications than the boss, and he didn't like that. MOST times when I went for interview I was told I was overqualified.

 

Don't assume that everyone on benefits wants to be on benefits.

 

Yes, what I earn is mine. But, as a productive member of a society, you've got to recognize the benefits the society has given you and pay back to stabilize the society so it can keep giving benefits to everyone else. You used public roads that were built by taxes. You used public education. You used workers, who are educated by the same education process that the society gave out. These people are all there by the virtue of the public. And I think it's my duty to pay back.

 

YES !

 

edited for typefail.

Edited August 24, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[brairtrainer]

Just to clairfy, there are some people who abuse the welfare system, but they seem few and far between. I only know of one instance, and it wasn't abuse it was plain poor choices.

 

My mom was doing a story (she was a newspaper reporter) about how people on welfare could not afford to get smoke decetors and batteries to keep them updated. One couple she talked too had three kids who were dressed in thin t-shirts and light jackets during the winter. Both parents smoked and there was a big screen tv in the living room that the couple had just bought, but they said they could not afford smoke dectecters.

 

There are some who abuse the system, but there is a good way to ferret them out and most people, in my expirence, are too proud to take advantage of the system, which is flawed in other ways.

 

[MysticTiger]

Just to clairfy, there are some people who abuse the welfare system, but they seem few and far between. I only know of one instance, and it wasn't abuse it was plain poor choices.

 

My mom was doing a story (she was a newspaper reporter) about how people on welfare could not afford to get smoke decetors and batteries to keep them updated. One couple she talked too had three kids who were dressed in thin t-shirts and light jackets during the winter. Both parents smoked and there was a big screen tv in the living room that the couple had just bought, but they said they could not afford smoke dectecters.

 

There are some who abuse the system, but there is a good way to ferret them out and most people, in my expirence, are too proud to take advantage of the system, which is flawed in other ways.

Not sure if you were referring to me but Welfare is different then Food Stamps. In retail I see food stamps all the time but I know nothing about Welfare. Although, I know abuse of the system is well known in my state of Michigan.

 

If the parents could afford to buy Cigarettes but not clothing for their children, then they have a substance abuse problem and should seek medical help. Not sure how much Cigarettes are where you live, but here they're around 8-12 dollars for a pack. You could easily buy a heavy coat with the money you save from not buying ONE pack of cigarettes. The Big screen TV is also ridiculous. It took my family several years to save up money to buy our first big screen TV and we're not on welfare. These people should have welfare taken away from them and their kids placed with other relatives. It sounds to me like child negligence. Also, not buying a coat is no excuse. THEY GIVE FREE COATS AWAY TO CHILDREN WITHOUT COATS. Charities are all over the place here. They'll give you a ton of free clothing if you're really in need of it.

 

My family was on Food Stamps at one point. It was great because we could actually afford to buy Groceries AND pay the bills (instead of one or the other). It really helped my family a lot. However, they took it away because I was on unemployment at the time (lost my job because where I worked went out of business) and we're not allowed to get it back, which is dumb because now we're stuck in the "We have to budget" thing again which means half the time, there's not enough food in the house to last until next grocery day. Yet, I see families who use the EBT card to buy Beer and Junk Food. I think EBT should be limited to basic foods like Bread, Milk, Cereal, etc.

 

It really makes me wish I had a say in our government. I would get so much stuff fixed up in my state. Of course, i'd be taking on the top two murder capitals of the US (Flint and Detroit) so not sure if I really want to tackle that mess.

Edited August 24, 2012 by MysticTiger

[brairtrainer]

Not sure if you were referring to me but Welfare is different then Food Stamps. In retail I see food stamps all the time but I know nothing about Welfare. Although, I know abuse of the system is well known in my state of Michigan.

 

If the parents could afford to buy Cigarettes but not clothing for their children, then they have a substance abuse problem and should seek medical help. Not sure how much Cigarettes are where you live, but here they're around 8-12 dollars for a pack. You could easily buy a heavy coat with the money you save from not buying ONE pack of cigarettes. The Big screen TV is also ridiculous. It took my family several years to save up money to buy our first big screen TV and we're not on welfare. These people should have welfare taken away from them and their kids placed with other relatives. It sounds to me like child negligence. Also, not buying a coat is no excuse. THEY GIVE FREE COATS AWAY TO CHILDREN WITHOUT COATS. Charities are all over the place here. They'll give you a ton of free clothing if you're really in need of it.

 

My family was on Food Stamps at one point. It was great because we could actually afford to buy Groceries AND pay the bills (instead of one or the other). It really helped my family a lot. However, they took it away because I was on unemployment at the time (lost my job because where I worked went out of business) and we're not allowed to get it back, which is dumb because now we're stuck in the "We have to budget" thing again which means half the time, there's not enough food in the house to last until next grocery day. Yet, I see families who use the EBT card to buy Beer and Junk Food. I think EBT should be limited to basic foods like Bread, Milk, Cereal, etc.

 

It really makes me wish I had a say in our government. I would get so much stuff fixed up in my state. Of course, i'd be taking on the top two murder capitals of the US (Flint and Detroit) so not sure if I really want to tackle that mess.

I'm aware what welfare is and what it is not (not all the intrecicies but after some problems with my uncle I have become more aware)

 

My town as several areas of government houseing, and this was where the family my mom was talking to was living. I don't know if there is such a way to abuse the system anymore as food stamps have moved to cards (and you are only allowed to get x amount of x brand).

 

But welfare here has to deal with getting extra money from the government on top of or in replace of your checks from working. I had a good friend who was on welfare, and his dad's ss because his dad was disabled and his mom had to stay home and take care of him, I've also knew people in school who bragged about being on free lunch and then would turn around and buy 125 dollar shoes.

 

So while there are honest and dishonest people I honestly think that making the system more effective means making the money only avalible for certain things and not taking people off it who need it the most.

[Zaxian]

So while there are honest and dishonest people I honestly think that making the system more effective means making the money only avalible for certain things and not taking people off it who need it the most.

I read an interesting article about the other day about Austrailia's take on some of their welfare: Debate over Australia welfare 'credit card'

The Australian government is rolling out a radical new way of paying welfare benefits that may be instructive for other countries around the world.

Instead of being given cash or cheques, thousands of people are now issued with electronic "credit" cards. The Basics cards, as they are called, can only be used to purchase "priority" items such as food, housing, clothing, education and health care.

The government calls the cards a form of income management. While some use the cards voluntarily, for others they are compulsory.

There are some teething problems - not all shops support them, for example - but I think it's a interesting idea that ensures that people are using their welfare money for basic needs and not for luxuries.

 

I'd like to clarify that I'm not suggesting that all, or even the majority of those on welfare misspend it - but I live down the road from a halfway-house/homeless-shelter and there are residents who apparently do nothing but drink their way through any money given to them. I also used to know a couple of individuals who were on EMA (education maintenance allowance - a UK welfare scheme which is supposed to be monetary help for young people from low income families to attend further education after the age of 16, to help with the cost of things like school dinners and transport) who promptly spent the money on luxuries (a new iPod and console in one case). Clearly some people do abuse the system and this seems to me to be a sensible way of cutting down on that without penalising those people who genuinely need the help.

[brairtrainer]

I read an interesting article about the other day about Austrailia's take on some of their welfare: Debate over Australia welfare 'credit card'

 

There are some teething problems - not all shops support them, for example - but I think it's a interesting idea that ensures that people are using their welfare money for basic needs and not for luxuries.

 

I'd like to clarify that I'm not suggesting that all, or even the majority of those on welfare misspend it - but I live down the road from a halfway-house/homeless-shelter and there are residents who apparently do nothing but drink their way through any money given to them. I also used to know a couple of individuals who were on EMA (education maintenance allowance - a UK welfare scheme which is supposed to be monetary help for young people from low income families to attend further education after the age of 16, to help with the cost of things like school dinners and transport) who promptly spent the money on luxuries (a new iPod and console in one case). Clearly some people do abuse the system and this seems to me to be a sensible way of cutting down on that without penalising those people who genuinely need the help.

That would make the most sense here! though I'm also in the camp that says that if someone is doing drugs/not putting his resume out/can't prove an updated resume, that they should get less money.

 

 

(part of that opinion is formed by how my uncle acts, I know there are situations you can't do that such as cargiver status, but eh...can't make all things perfect just more effective.)

[Vhale]

They did try a debit card thing here after hurricane Katrina. It ended up being something of a mess. But, given that the whole situation was bizarre to start with, maybe Australia will do better. Less rushed, and more planned.

 

My uncle does a charity auction for his town every year. We usually make something for it, my grandmother always made a quilt that they'd hang up in the store and sell tickets on. However much they raise, they divide up for the poor kids at school and that is how much they get to spend. They are required to buy a few things first, like a coat, shoes etc. But after that, they can buy whatever they want if they have money left over. It's usually been about 50$. Many of the kids get Christmas presents for their family if they can. But there is always a small percentage that, the teachers have to keep the coats and shoes at school in the classroom. Because if the kids take them home, their parents will try to take them back to the store for cash so they can buy smokes etc.

 

It's been needier the last few years because Tyson chicken went and brought in a ton of illegal workers for their plants. And while they eventually got slapped over it, a lot of those people stayed. Imo, if they throw the workers in jail, they ought to throw the corporate bosses in too. Or start garnishing their company profits to pay for the problems they caused for the area.

[brairtrainer]

I half-way agree with you there. I think though government needs to shrink first, before we get into more finger pointing.

 

Also I think we need to make it easier to get a green card in then we won't have as many illegals trying to get away from the drug lords, as well as have a safety net for illegals smuggled in as part of human trafficting.

[MysticTiger]

The whole illegal immigrant thing is a giant mess. I think it was stupid move by Obama (smart politically, though) to allow all these illegal immigrants to no longer be illegal. It angers me because I hear stories of homeless men going to jail for returning money they stole, yet people who illegally come over to this country and live without having to pay taxes is OK? Just URG. Why are we rewarding someone doing something illegal?!

[brairtrainer]

It has to do with the argument that someone here illegally is then doing all the jobs American's don't want to do, but then on the flip side it turns out that this allows the drug lords down in Mexico to get across and secure bases. Really this is why I say another solution to help would be to legalize and tax marijuana. Takes away the drug lord's power and gives money to our government.

 

As well as make it easier for people who use it for medical reasons.

[Vhale]

There's a interesting discussion about the term, Illegal Alien that can be found here: Why Illegal Immagrant is a slur

 

Another misconception is that the vast majority of migrant workers currently out of status sneak across our southern border in the middle of the night. Actually, almost half enter the U.S. with a valid tourist or work visa and overstay their allotted time. Many go to school, find a job, get married and start a family. And some even join the Marine Corps, like Lance Cpl. Jose Gutierrez, who was the first combat veteran to die in the Iraq War. While he was granted American citizenship posthumously, there are another 38,000 non-citizens in uniform, including undocumented immigrants, defending our country.

 

I'm a bit surprised that the numbers were so high for enlistees. But we have been in a war for 11 years, so maybe I shouldn't be. Technically, if taxes aren't getting paid by an immigrant it's because their job is skipping out on payroll taxes. If they are legal, their company better be reporting the income. And it's impossible for them to skip out on sales tax, gas tax etc. Income tax is only one of the ways the government gets money, after all.

 

The other issue is how much it costs to jail people for it. And all on the taxpayers dime, going to private business. One of the scandals with the Arizona crackdown was that the governor there got a lot of campaign money from the prison industry. It's similar to the for profit diploma mill problem. The federal government gives out cash per prisoner. So, they lock people up and they get a revenue stream and potentially a workforce. Some prisons hire their prisoners out to companies for 0.50$ an hour. There's a least one lawsuit from a prisoner that they shouldn't be able to force them to work like that.

 

Private Prison Profits Swell

 

"The companies seized this opportunity to fill up their empty prisons, and they've used lobbyists to ensure that it keeps getting pushed in that direction," says Tanya Golash-Boza, a professor of sociology at the University of Kansas who has followed the growth of U.S. immigration enforcement and detention. "You can certainly say that if we stopped the mandatory detention of immigrants, CCA and GEO Group and these other companies would have a major financial crisis."

*snip*

"You build a strong image of fear of these Mexican immigrants, which creates a moral justification for imprisoning them, and at the same time brings in lots of money," Reveles says. "The politicians are not motivated to fix the immigration system. On the contrary, they're benefiting from it politically and economically."

 

Same old same old, follow the money.

[MysticTiger]

"Migrant workers" doesn't fit the title of Illegal immigrants, though. Because not everyone who crosses the border illegally is going to be a worker. Some are children, some are older folks that will never work. Calling them "Migrant" doesn't make much since either since, yes they are moving from one to another, but they are doing so outside the law. Using "Migrant" for both someone moving legally here and someone illegally here is very confusing. Not sure why this would be considered a slur since anyone could be considered an illegal immigrant. It's not exclusive to those coming from Mexico. Canadians can be illegal as well.

 

What I don't like is they get paid under the table (again no taxes) because they can't be hired as a legal US citizen, they get hired in more easily within companies and are granted scholarships to college. That isn't fair to all of us who CAN'T afford to pay taxes, but do. Or those who are unable to attend college.

 

I'm not saying jail everybody. Jail is probably one of the most screwed up, money hogging system in the US for some of the reasons you described (also, they get better health coverage in jail then I do). Deportation and passport flagging is currently the best system. And I use that lightly since it's also a very screwed up system.

 

American Politics ALWAYS come back to money. That's why the entire system should be reevaluated. Liberty, Freedom and Justice should be the core values of our system NOT Money, Corporations and Media. :|

[Vhale]

I think you may have picked up on the wrong word. It wasn't migrant vrs immigrant, but using illegal and alien. Or at least that it how it appeared to me. Granted, I usually think of migrant workers as people who move farm to farm, picking harvest. But they are technically unauthorized immigrants.

 

I think it's a bit like people using the term, pro-abortion. It's an extreme. And if we frame the debate in extremes, can we make policy that isn't extreme? I'm certainly for people becoming citizens, don't get me wrong. I have several friends from other countries and my step-brother's entire family. They are very pro-citizenship and look down on those that don't get it. I'm afraid that people are so wrapped up in fear over this caricature of a dirty mexican, waiting in an alley with drugs, they use it as an excuse for every policy that gets put out. Granted, this kinda describes my newish coworker so I've been suffering anti-immigrant diatribes for the last 7 months. The guy has a serious hate for mexican immigrants and it's his answer for supporting anything and everything. You could be talking about the NDAA and he'll start ranting about how people coming to the US need to learn english. Voting rights? He'll start going on about how, if THEY can buy liquor then how can THEY not have a valid ID? Serious face-palming over that entire line of conversation.

 

Also, totally agree with the legalizing marijuana thing.

 

Oh, think this might help answer your question, was down at the bottom. I had to reread it.

 

In Luntz's book "Words That Work," Appendix B lists "The 21 Political Words and Phrases You Should Never Say Again." For example, destroy "undocumented worker" and instead say "illegal immigrant," because "the label" you use "determines the attitudes people have toward them."

 

And the poison is effective. Surely it's no coincidence that in 2010, hate crimes against Latinos made up 66% of the violence based on ethnicity, up from 45% in 2009, according to the FBI.

[MysticTiger]

I think you may have picked up on the wrong word. It wasn't migrant vrs immigrant, but using illegal and alien. Or at least that it how it appeared to me. Granted, I usually think of migrant workers as people who move farm to farm, picking harvest. But they are technically unauthorized immigrants.

 

I think it's a bit like people using the term, pro-abortion. It's an extreme. And if we frame the debate in extremes, can we make policy that isn't extreme? I'm certainly for people becoming citizens, don't get me wrong. I have several friends from other countries and my step-brother's entire family. They are very pro-citizenship and look down on those that don't get it. I'm afraid that people are so wrapped up in fear over this caricature of a dirty mexican, waiting in an alley with drugs, they use it as an excuse for every policy that gets put out. Granted, this kinda describes my newish coworker so I've been suffering anti-immigrant diatribes for the last 7 months. The guy has a serious hate for mexican immigrants and it's his answer for supporting anything and everything. You could be talking about the NDAA and he'll start ranting about how people coming to the US need to learn english. Voting rights? He'll start going on about how, if THEY can buy liquor then how can THEY not have a valid ID? Serious face-palming over that entire line of conversation.

 

Also, totally agree with the legalizing marijuana thing.

 

Oh, think this might help answer your question, was down at the bottom. I had to reread it.

 

I was actually referring to what was said in the article. Sorry, I should have mentioned that... n_n;

 

I do agree that if someone is living here, they should learn English, though. No one moves to Japan and expects everyone there to know English so they don't bother learning Japanese. The same should be said about America. I know we don't have an official language, but I find it offensive when people get angry at me because I don't understand their language. Or when people decide to talk in another language and laugh while looking at you. RUDE. I just find the whole act of talking in another language around other people (unless you are visiting the country) is rude. I don't start up conversations in Japanese around my customers at work and I would expect they would show me the same courtesy.

 

Marijuana is a tricky subject because I don't really want stoned people driving around. Doesn't sound safe to me. Of course, we have texters on the road, so I guess I can't win. Also, I already have a hard time when someone who reeks of Cigarettes (or smokes in a public place) is around me, having to smell Marijuana is a whole other problem. I may possibly be allergic to it since i've been around people who have just smoked it and I have a really hard time breathing around them.

 

Words have powerful effects, I agree. And i'm sure the words used are definitely used in political debates and such.

Edited August 25, 2012 by MysticTiger

[Rosedamai]

No one moves to Japan and expects everyone there to know English so they don't bother learning Japanese.

Well, uh.....actually there are people who do....