Abortion

[xhunter]

Maybe these two very particular people should be forcibly banned from having sex until they stop being irresponsible about it and wasting money on medical procedures when they could spend a lot less on contraception. No one ever died from keeping it in their pants. When they prove they are capable of scraping two neurons together, then they can be allowed to do things with real life responsibilities again.

you can't do that because you can't keep your eye on them forever or simply 24/7. the only way to do that is by making them sterile but most clinics, like the ones where i live will only allow a female that is very old or has a lest one child become sterile. i think that males can become sterile with little fuss but that's about it. i think that those cases should have a limit unless it was rape then allow the funding to it. rape is one thing and on purpose is another.

[Aeriaa]

I think you may have taken me the wrong way. My only issue is with irresponsible kids (they may very well be "adults", but until you can act like an adult and make decisions like one, you are a kid) that have sex without any form of birth control. Women have scads of birth controls available to them. Then there are condoms, spermicides, etc. There are ways to go about having sex without being COMPLETELY irresponsible. Why not use them? However, I know there are people out there who DON'T use them. Theres also the "morning after pill" that you can get OVER THE COUNTER in some areas-- meant to be taken within three days of the sexual activity to prevent pregnancy. If you do the deed, then at least be ready for the backlash from it.

 

And, I do know people who are like this... :/ Honestly, I can't look at them as adults... simply can't. Do they need their rights stripped away? Its not my place to say that, but I do wish that it would be exponentially harder for them to get the procedure after the 3rd or 4th abortion, just saying. >>

 

And, yes, I am a rape victim. My child will never know thats how she came to be. The only issue that scares me more than anything is that BECAUSE she was concieved in that manner is that I'm not sure how much help there would be if she needed medical assistance that I was unable to give. (IE: What genetic issues were present in the father's side of the family? What if she needed an organ and my own isn't a viable match??)

 

That said, I do understand how a woman would feel about having a child in that manner. For the first 4 or so months, I was utterly depressed about the child. Was going to give birth and get out of there as fast as possible (and that was ONLY because I viewed it as being not the child's fault, and honestly, a slap in my own grandmother's face if I had aborted knowing she had 5 kids from rape). I can EASILY see how that child could be seen as a living reminder of the hell the mother went through. What worked for me won't work for everyone and I know that, but I am thankful for the child being in my life.

 

Edited for slightly better wording

Edited February 24, 2012 by Aeriaa

[Princess Artemis]

Aeriaa, if you were speaking to me, I didn't take you wrong at all--I knew what you meant exactly. There were those two people that were being that irresponsible, and that's who the very much not-serious suggestion was directed at. It wasn't directed at anyone else.

[diannethegeek]

The proposed anti-abortion bill here in Kansas is still on track. Among other things, it would allow doctors to withhold information that they knew would lead a woman to abort, require the woman to hear the fetal heartbeat, and require doctors to tell women about the (unfounded) link between abortion and breast cancer. Our governor has said he'll sign it if it reaches his desk. It's still several steps away from that at the moment.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/29/k..._n_1307076.html

[philpot123]

Abortion, in my opinion, should be left up to the person with child. I personally don't consider a cluster of cells LIVING until it's self-supportive. Say this person is a rape victim? What would she do? Would she want to live with the haunting memory of that trauma forever?

I realize this is a few days old, but that reasoning doesn't fly. Either killing the fetus is murder or it isn't. The "emotional burden" presented in instances of rape has no bearing on that. Furthermore, if killing a fetus IS murder, it cannot be justified because "I just couldn't live with the haunting memory of that trauma anymore." Can a victim of child molestation kill the one who molested them and get off in front of a judge by saying they just couldn't live with the emotions? No. Doesn't fly. If you believe killing the fetus isn't wrong, there has to be another reason, because that one is not logically valid.

[tyto_alba]

I realize this is a few days old, but that reasoning doesn't fly. Either killing the fetus is murder or it isn't. The "emotional burden" presented in instances of rape has no bearing on that. Furthermore, if killing a fetus IS murder, it cannot be justified because "I just couldn't live with the haunting memory of that trauma anymore." Can a victim of child molestation kill the one who molested them and get off in front of a judge by saying they just couldn't live with the emotions? No. Doesn't fly. If you believe killing the fetus isn't wrong, there has to be another reason, because that one is not logically valid.

That's one of the reasons I'd use if I were to be raped and get pregnant from it. I would flat-out refuse to carry to term a fetus created through rape. I can't stand children, I can't stand the thought of being pregnant, and I wouldn't force a rape victim into carrying to term, no matter what her reasoning behind the abortion was.

 

Not that I'd ever carry a fetus to term anyway, rape or not. I'd either get an abortion or find myself a nice coat hanger.

 

Also, fetus =/= a full-grown being that would have been responsible for molesting someone. So... I find that argument to be invalid, unless there's something about it I'm not getting.

[Obscure_Trash]

I realize this is a few days old, but that reasoning doesn't fly. Either killing the fetus is murder or it isn't. The "emotional burden" presented in instances of rape has no bearing on that. Furthermore, if killing a fetus IS murder, it cannot be justified because "I just couldn't live with the haunting memory of that trauma anymore." Can a victim of child molestation kill the one who molested them and get off in front of a judge by saying they just couldn't live with the emotions? No. Doesn't fly. If you believe killing the fetus isn't wrong, there has to be another reason, because that one is not logically valid.

I agree with you in the sense that I don't see why one women deserves an abortion more than another. I don't think it's fair to just look at abortion and say 'well what if she was raped?'

 

There are many reasons people get abortions and, to me, they are equally are valid, as long as they are making the right choice for themselves.

[philpot123]

That's one of the reasons I'd use if I were to be raped and get pregnant from it. I would flat-out refuse to carry to term a fetus created through rape. I can't stand children, I can't stand the thought of being pregnant, and I wouldn't force a rape victim into carrying to term, no matter what her reasoning behind the abortion was. Not that I'd ever carry a fetus to term anyway, rape or not. I'd either get an abortion or find myself a nice coat hanger. Also, fetus =/= a full-grown being that would have been responsible for molesting someone. So... I find that argument to be invalid, unless there's something about it I'm not getting.

 

But does being raped make it any more right? Or was abortion simply right in the first place? Being raped doesn't change the overarching rightness or wrongness of abortion.

 

I'm saying IF, follow my hypothetical here, IF abortion is "murder" by some definition... it cannot be explained away by an "emotional burden" caused by the one you murdered. So you cannot use an emotional burden as a counter argument to the statement "abortion is murder." there has to be an alternative reason that abortion is okay.

 

 

*edit* I'm probably not explaining this well. Okay, assume I come in here and say "abortion is murder." Right, you disagree with that. You say "abortion is not murder, and is okay, because rape babies cause emotional burden." Does the fact that rape babies carry an emotional burden make all abortions okay? Does an emotional burden make ANY abortion "okay" JUST because of that? Well, you're arguing against my claim of "murder", so is emotional burden enough of a reason for any other murder to NOT be "murder"? No. So your reasoning for abortion NOT being murder and being okay has to be beyond rape babies and emotions.

I agree with you in the sense that I don't see why one women deserves an abortion more than another. I don't think it's fair to just look at abortion and say 'well what if she was raped?'

 

There are many reasons people get abortions and, to me, they are equally are valid, as long as they are making the right choice for themselves.

And I appreciate your consistency. People who say "abortion is wrong except for rape and incest" make me more mad than anyone, because that's the most inconsistent position one can take. If abortions are okay, it is not made any more "right" because of rape. If abortions are WRONG, it is not made any more "right" because of rape. It's not a legitimate reason that abortions are wrong or right. I don't agree with your conclusions, but I appreciate the consistency.

Edited March 2, 2012 by philpot123

[RheaZen]

An instance where it's morally okay to kill a human?

 

Because I'm sick of all the muckity muck about "when does it get rights? Isn't it also a human?"

 

Would also tie in better with my own thoughts about euthenasia, the death penalty, etc.

 

Just something random I felt like putting out there.

[philpot123]

An instance where it's morally okay to kill a human?

 

Because I'm sick of all the muckity muck about "when does it get rights? Isn't it also a human?"

 

Would also tie in better with my own thoughts about euthenasia, the death penalty, etc.

 

Just something random I felt like putting out there.

Again, I appreciate the consistency. THAT is what I mean by a reason beyond "rape means abortion is okay." As far as particulars, I don't feel like arguing against euthanasia and such because I'm in a pissy mood and I wouldn't argue very well right now

[Brite]

Would also tie in better with my own thoughts about euthenasia, the death penalty, etc.

 

But euthenasia is usually humane. There's no suffering involved. That's how it is with abortion in early weeks. No pain is felt. The only difference is that with euthenasia, there already WAS life. The fetus feels no pain in early weeks, but some people like to insist to make a person feel like they took a knife and stabbed a baby to death if they had an abortion.

[RheaZen]

I guess we have to get more used to the idea of killing people? idk, muckity-muck.

 

:|

 

I probably shouldn't be in here if I don't really feel like elaborating on things much.

[Brite]

Ah, death penalty is for another thread.

[Obscure_Trash]

There is actually a death penalty topic around still, if anybody is interested: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=127952

[skinst]

Does anyone have a copy of ShinyTomato's statistics and sources please? I need to cite some on another site.

[Nine]

Recently came across a case that made me question my stances on abortion and the like, and I've come to the conclusion that I am a willing hypocrite =o

 

If an individual is involved in the murder of a pregnant women, I support the decision to prosecute along the lines of a double-murder (if the option is viable)*. However, I've no qualms about abortion, stem cell research, any of that. I figure this is because the fetus in a homicide case is not in direct conflict to the mother and her rights, and is instead a factor working in her "favor". If it makes it more difficult for murderers to get out and prowl the streets, I'm willing to push aside my beliefs that a fetus is not technically a 'life'. I know not everyone is capable of doing that, but it does make me wonder if this way of thinking is more common than I think. Certainly when you come across such cases, you don't normally see hordes outside of courtrooms arguing that the fetus of the murdered woman was never 'alive'.

 

*Just to clarify, the homicide of a pregnant woman is of course treated differently than if it were two adults, and varies drastically depending on state, country, age of the fetus, intent, etc.

 

Uh, nor am I insinuating that abortion and murder are anything alike.

[TheDarkCynder]

Florida (the state I live in) wants to make a law saying women looking to have an abortion should have to wait 24 hours before having it. Public feelings are about 50/50 in the matter. Thoughts?

[skinst]

Depends entirely on circumstance. If said woman's life is in danger, then no. If she's having an abortion when her life isn't in danger however... well, I suppose a grace period would be a good idea so that she can evaluate her decision completely.

 

I'm not sure why there needs to be a law saying so though. Seems like a waste of time to me.

[Obscure_Trash]

Florida (the state I live in) wants to make a law saying women looking to have an abortion should have to wait 24 hours before having it. Public feelings are about 50/50 in the matter. Thoughts?

What's their reasoning about having to wait 24 hours? Sounds like something based off the myth that all women decide to have abortion on a whim, without looking it up. I thought that, to get an abortion, women had to meet with some health provider first, anyway, to learn about it and talk about their options. As far as I thought, you didn't just go in and get rushed in and out for an abortion. So the women are already thinking about it and learning about it?

 

Please correct me if I'm confused on any procedure or forgot something.

[diannethegeek]

Florida (the state I live in) wants to make a law saying women looking to have an abortion should have to wait 24 hours before having it. Public feelings are about 50/50 in the matter. Thoughts?

I think it punishes low income women who have to arrange for extra time off work, extra transportaion, child care, etc.

 

Do you happen to know if your state is building in any leeway for those who live more than a certain distance from an abortion provider? For some women it's quite a trip to arrange for twice and some states are allowing them to wait less than a day if they're an hour or more away.

[Fuzzbucket]

I'd have thought - unless it is very different from anywhere else I know of - that the doctors and the counselling you usually have to go through would take that long anyway ? Other than the morning after pill (so called) - is there somewhere you can just walk in and say you want an abortion and you want it NOW and they will do that ?

 

(I ask this purely out of interest, as I had no idea !)

[TheDarkCynder]

Here's the article, to clear some things up.

 

Posted: 03/02/2012

By: Kristal Roberts

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. - Women seeking abortions would be required to wait it out for 24 hours under a bill passed by the Florida House on Thursday.

The waiting period would begin after the woman sees a physician, and patients would have to be informed that a fetus feels pain at 20 weeks, according to a Reuters report.

The Republican supported bill won with a 78-33 vote after a long and passionate debate.

If the bill does go through, doctors who perform abortions would be required to take an annual ethics course.

But opponents believe the bill is far less likely to get the Florida Senate’s support. They say the measures have less to do with educating women and instead are focused on planting barriers for women who chose abortion.

 

 

Read more: http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/heal...g#ixzz1o4XPzbfX

[Goslander]

Has anyone ever posted this before? It's kinda fun. http://www.philosophyexperiments.com/whosebody/Default.aspx

 

 

[skinst]

54% of Christians taking this survey think the killing of children is morally justified.

 

Iiiiiiiiiiiinteresting.

[AngelKitty]

Has anyone ever posted this before? It's kinda fun. http://www.philosophyexperiments.com/whosebody/Default.aspx

I took the quiz and got this:

 

Your moral judgement of abortion  Pass

Internal consistency of your views  Pass

 

Your responses during this activity indicate that you should think abortion is morally justified except perhaps in the late stages of a pregnancy. Moreover, assuming it isn't a late-term termination, you should not have any significant moral qualms about it. This is in line with your stated position on abortion, which is precisely that it is normally justified. In general, your position on abortion seems coherent and well thought out (which, of course, is not the same as saying it is right).