Abortion

[Alpha1]

Pro-choice is...pro-choice. It's supportive of...choice. That's not the same as supporting abortion though the two do quite frequently coincide.

 

You're pro-abortion in the same sense that a non-slave owner who favored men owning slaves is pro-slavery. What is being referred to is legalization. An example is how sides of the drug debate are referred to as pro-marijuana/anti-marijuana/anti-drug etc..

 

I am not a Republican, but the best I can gather, what those cuts in social spending are about is attempting to reduce the amount of mandatory spending the US does. That isn't exactly equal to not caring what happens to people after they are born.

 

Look at U.S. "defense" spending. Romney and the other Republican candidates (except Paul) criticized the automatic cuts in defense. Why? There was no blow to national security over it. Eisenhower warned about the military-industrial complex, and that's what we got. The U.S. essentially subsidizes other countries by providing a conventional force for them. There's 900+- U.S. bases abroad, and many of them provide questionable value.

 

 

The biggest elephant in the room is Medicare. There should be means testing. Less benefits. It's unsustainable.

 

Is the question I asked a really hard one to answer? I'm asking it mostly of the people who use the words because they are the ones who use the words, but maybe they don't know the source of them and I need to look elsewhere for an answer.

 

It's rather innocuous until you realize people are trying to differentiate it from "pro-life". I think a more fitting word would be "birther".

Edited February 11, 2012 by Alpha1

[Brite]

You're pro-abortion in the same sense that a non-slave owner who favored men owning slaves is pro-slavery. What is being referred to is legalization. An example is how sides of the drug debate are referred to as pro-marijuana/anti-marijuana/anti-drug etc..

 

Slavery has nothing to do with choosing whether a fetus that doesn't consciously exist yet should be aborted or kept. Why do people throw in arguments of a whole different card...

[Fuzzbucket]

You're pro-abortion in the same sense that a non-slave owner who favored men owning slaves is pro-slavery. What is being referred to is legalization. An example is how sides of the drug debate are referred to as pro-marijuana/anti-marijuana/anti-drug etc..

 

 

That doesn't make sense. Being pro-choice just means letting people make their own decisions. A non-slave-owner who favoured people owning slaves is effectively pro-slavery - sure.

 

But someone who favours a woman being allowed to choose what happens to her body is in no way pro her actual choice as such.

 

AS to medicare - if you had universal medicare and state insurance with an end to the massively wasteful and expensive private insurance, the whole system would be HUGELY cheaper than it is now. In the UK, as the system began to be dismantled by Thatcher - operational (not actual costs of treatment) costs rose astronomically. When I started to work in the NHS in the early 80s, admin costs (which are effectively the costs of insurance) ran at 4%. Now they are almost up to a quarter of the NHS budget. That's appalling.

 

But that is not relevant to this thread and nor is defence spending. Except that both are wasteful.

Edited February 11, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[DarkLadyNyara]

Okay, i'm just wondering, but what are your thoughts on making a mother see an ultrasound before she gets an abortion? I think I saw something earlier where some one was dissagreeing with a bill that stated a woman should have to get an ultrasound before an abortion and I was just wondering why every one seemed to object to this.

Because it is insulting. Because the requirement is based on the idea that women who are seeking abortions are stupid, and that they haven't given any thought at all to their decision.

 

Oh, and because ultrasounds cost money and guess who gets stuck with the bill? But that's really a footnote compared to the massive paternalism and contempt inherent in these laws.

 

I still am wondering why it would create guilt if a fetus is nothing more than a "clump of cells". Why would it stir up maternal feelings? Tumors sure wouldn't stir anything of the sort in me! I'm not saying it would change her mind and I'm not for loading guilt trips on women. If it is her choice, though, as you claim it is, then why not show her the whole picture? Why should she not see this parasitic clump of cells that is holding her in slavery?

 

Yes. Because all women respond the same way to pregnancy. I mean it's not like many women who get abortions actually have children. Or plan on having children at a later time. And that certainly wouldn't have any impact on how she views a potential child.

 

The decision to abort is a deeply personal and emotional one. The state has no business telling women how they should deal with those emotions. So please do not misuse "choice" like that. There is no choice with these laws- that's the whole problem.

 

From my POV- getting an ultrasound prior to an abortion wouldn't make me feel guilty or upset (though having to listen to that asinine "look! it's a BABY" spiel would piss me off beyond belief) in part because I do not want to be pregnant, and never will, and fetuses quite frankly creep me out. So, yeah. I would find it rather like listening to a description of a tumor (except with more inherent intellectual dishonesty.) But I suspect most women aren't like me- y'know, seeing as humanity hasn't died out yet.

[Alpha1]

Slavery has nothing to do with choosing whether a fetus that doesn't consciously exist yet should be aborted or kept. Why do people throw in arguments of a whole different card...

 

That doesn't make sense. Being pro-choice just means letting people make their own decisions. A non-slave-owner who favoured people owning slaves is effectively pro-slavery - sure.

 

But someone who favours a woman being allowed to choose what happens to her body is in no way pro her actual choice as such.

 

Typical responses.

 

Why didn't both of you respond to my point that it's referring to legalization?

 

Note: I also find it humorous that virtually everyone that is pro-choice ends up saying they wouldn't get an abortion themselves. I bet many of those would end up singing a different tune just like many "pro-life" women have.

 

 

But that is not relevant to this thread and nor is defence spending. Except that both are wasteful.

 

It was relevant. I was pointing out how the pro-life side seems to only care about themselves. Artemis responded with this:

 

"I am not a Republican, but the best I can gather, what those cuts in social spending are about is attempting to reduce the amount of mandatory spending the US does. That isn't exactly equal to not caring what happens to people after they are born."

 

I countered showing huge, unsustainable entitlements going to seniors.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

I am prochoice and have had one.

 

And YES I know that you refer to legalisation. But you brought up the slavery card in non-legalisation terms.

 

And money going to seniors is NOT unsustainable. Universal medicare removing the need for the VAST amount of money that is wasted on insurance admin would pay for that easily. (Not to mention that this generation has been living on the fat of the money paid IN by those seniors. This generation are NOT paying into pensions in the way that older people used to; they have been relying on the banking balloon that finally burst (and high time too.)

 

And - again this has NOTHING to do with whether or not abortion a} is OK b} should be legal.

 

(damn those sunnies !)

Edited February 11, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[Alpha1]

I am prochoice and have had one.

 

What does "pro-abortion" mean to you?

 

And YES I know that you refer to legalisation. But you brought up the slavery card in non-legalisation terms.

 

I brought it in for the lulz.

 

And money going to seniors is NOT unsustainable. Universal medicare removing the need for the VAST amount of money that is wasted on insurance admin would pay for that easily. (Not to mention that this generation has been living on the fat of the money paid IN by those seniors. This generation are NOT paying into pensions in the way that older people used to; they have been relying on the banking balloon that finally burst (and high time too.)

 

Living on the fat paid in by those seniors? Seniors have already elected officials that blew their SS benefits on crony capitalism, pork barrel spending, "defense" spending, etc. LOL Newt Gingrich wants a $1 trillion dollar moon base! Talk about priorities.

 

28%-37% of voters (vast majority over 50 years old) in exit polls of Republican primaries made $100-200K+ a year. They could handle means testing for SS.

 

I think universal health care would help reduce costs, so you're only preaching to the choir here.

 

And - again this has NOTHING to do with whether or not abortion a} is OK b} should be legal.

 

(damn those sunnies !)

 

Then stop posting about it.

[Deudalephon]

So sad to think about. ;_;

 

I'm 100% against the concept of abortion, but I also feel sorry for the abortion doctors who get shot/killed because of what they do. ;;

Edited February 11, 2012 by Deudalephon

[7Deadly$ins]

So sad to think about. ;_;

 

I'm 100% against the concept of abortion, but I also feel sorry for the abortion doctors who get shot/killed because of what they do. ;;

Elaborate.

[Deudalephon]

Elaborate.

Wiki has a few names mentioned. Anti-abortion activists mostly. There are many articles about those people throughout the internet. You gotta admit, it's pretty sad.

[7Deadly$ins]

Wiki has a few names mentioned. Anti-abortion activists mostly. There are many articles about those people throughout the internet. You gotta admit, it's pretty sad.

I more so meant elaborate on your anti-abortion view. It's good that you feel empathy for the abortion doctor murders.

 

Most of this community is pro-choice, so people are probably going to ask you for a more in-depth look at your views and why you feel that way.

[Deudalephon]

I more so meant elaborate on your anti-abortion view. It's good that you feel empathy for the abortion doctor murders.

 

Most of this community is pro-choice, so people are probably going to ask you for a more in-depth look at your views and why you feel that way.

Oh, I see. Sorry, but I don't like to get into long debates, especially not about this particular subject. ;_; Was just putting it out there.

 

Reading opinions is just enough for me. ^^

[Fuzzbucket]

What does "pro-abortion" mean to you?

Pro-abortion is pretty much meaningless. If it meant anything it would mean thinking that abortion was a really good idea and everyone should try it. I don't believe anyone is in that camp. I certainly am not.

 

I am pro abortion being easily available as an option for women who want one. That is not at all the same thing as being pro abortion as a "general term." To be pro abortion would mean wanting everyone pregnant to have to carefully consider why NOT to have one, I think.

[Alpha1]

Pro-abortion is pretty much meaningless. If it meant anything it would mean thinking that abortion was a really good idea and everyone should try it. I don't believe anyone is in that camp. I certainly am not.

 

I am pro abortion being easily available as an option for women who want one. That is not at all the same thing as being pro abortion as a "general term." To be pro abortion would mean wanting everyone pregnant to have to carefully consider why NOT to have one, I think.

 

"Pro-abortion" means you're for legalizing abortion.

 

You obviously don't view abortion as abhorrent, otherwise there would be no reason to give women that choice.

 

What does that mean? Financial reasons and future prospects might influence women to not have a baby. There's also plenty of other valid reasons why women may choose to abort their fetus. What's wrong with that?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

"Pro-abortion" means you're for legalizing abortion.

 

You obviously don't view abortion as abhorrent, otherwise there would be no reason to give women that choice.

 

What does that mean? Financial reasons and future prospects might influence women to not have a baby. There's also plenty of other valid reasons why women may choose to abort their fetus. What's wrong with that?

In my book, being pro legalising abortion means I am in favour of it being legalised. Which I am. And mercifully in both my countries of residence and nationality, it IS legal.

 

Being pro abortion - linguistically - would mean thinking abortion is a really good idea. It is for some people, yes. But it isn't a good thing in and of itself. It is neither good not bad - it is something that some women need to be able to do.

 

And no, I don't regard it as abhorrent. I'm not saying it is an easy choice to make; I wasn't too thrilled about mine, though it was by far the least worst option - and I would defend anyone's right not to have one as well. But any woman should have the right to make that choice, for whatever reason - financial, medical, emotional or simply because they feel like it (not very likely, but still.). I have never suggested otherwise.

Edited February 11, 2012 by fuzzbucket

[skinst]

Pro-Life = Doesn't support abortion but tries to support the woman and the baby in any way possible.

Pro-Birth = Just want's the baby born and doesn't give a damn about the woman after she's popped out the kid.

Pro-Choice = Supports the choice of woman who want to have abortions regardless of their reasoning. Doesn't nessacarily like abortion.

Pro-Abortion = Usually refers to someone who likes abortion from what I've seen.

 

Hope this answers the question.

[Fuzzbucket]

Pro-Life = Doesn't support abortion but tries to support the woman and the baby in any way possible.

Pro-Birth = Just wants the baby born and doesn't give a damn about the woman after she's popped out the kid.

Pro-Choice = Supports the choice of woman who want to have abortions regardless of their reasoning. Doesn't necessarily like abortion.

Pro-Abortion = Usually refers to someone who likes abortion from what I've seen.

 

Hope this answers the question.

Works for me. Thanks.

[NixAyum]

I'd never seen the pro-birth term used before it started getting tossed on here.

 

/still pro-being-allowed-to-get-an-abortion-and-would-get-one-myself-if-need-be

[Alpha1]

In my book, being pro legalising abortion means I am in favour of it being legalised. Which I am. And mercifully in both my countries of residence and nationality, it IS legal.

 

That's a mouthful.

 

Even pro-choice people will define the other side as "pro-life". The MSM even uses it. Does this mean you're "anti-life"?

 

Being pro abortion - linguistically - would mean thinking abortion is a really good idea. It is for some people, yes. But it isn't a good thing in and of itself. It is neither good not bad - it is something that some women need to be able to do.

 

If that's how you want to interpret it...

 

And no, I don't regard it as abhorrent. I'm not saying it is an easy choice to make; I wasn't too thrilled about mine, though it was by far the least worst option - and I would defend anyone's right not to have one as well. But any woman should have the right to make that choice, for whatever reason - financial, medical, emotional or simply because they feel like it (not very likely, but still.). I have never suggested otherwise.

 

I didn't say you thought it was abhorrent.

 

Works for me. Thanks.

 

"Birther" is better than "pro-birth". Gets them all riled up.

 

I'd never seen the pro-birth term used before it started getting tossed on here.

 

I've seen it only a few times, and it was all from the internet.

[Zephyrgirl]

First off an ultra-sound is NOT gory. It merely shows the woman the whole picture and if the doctors are doing their job right, they won't load a guilt trip on the mother. Most pro-lifers I know do not believe in demonizing women just because they had an abortion or are considering it.

 

Also, you seem to be implying that I don't care about the mother and that I'm some sort of selfish, ignorant, fanatic who enjoys seeing women suffer and I find this extremely insulting. I don't at all. However, there are worse things that can happen, much worse things, than carrying a child to term. I'm not meaning to be insulting or rude, but it seems naive to think that pregnancy is the ultimate of suffering, which is how you all seem to be making it sound. I'm not implying that you all are niave, only that it sounds that way.

Secondly, I'm not ignoring arguments and I asked those questions in all honesty. Your answers merely did nothing to sway or satisfy me. I still don't understand how a clump of cells could create maternal feelings and I have yet to see a clear answer.

And, yes, I do agree that there are other issues that need to be worked on, I've stated this before. The mother needs just as much attention as her child and a fare ans straight foreward presentation of the whole picture without drama or hidden issues.

[skinst]

First off an ultra-sound is NOT gory. It merely shows the woman the whole picture and if the doctors are doing their job right, they won't load a guilt trip on the mother.

According to you it isn't. But you are not every single woman on this planet. You are not every single doctor on this planet. You have no idea what every single person is thinking.

 

Most pro-lifers I know do not believe in demonizing women just because they had an abortion or are considering it.

No, but many of them would likely jump at the chance to see abortion illegalised, not to mention probably vote for pro-birth fundies when its a voting year. That does as much damage as the picketers outside of abortion clinics.

 

~Removed~

 

However, there are worse things that can happen, much worse things, than carrying a child to term. I'm not meaning to be insulting or rude, but it seems naive to think that pregnancy is the ultimate of suffering, which is how you all seem to be making it sound. I'm not implying that you all are niave, only that it sounds that way.

How much, exactly, do you know about pregnancy and childbirth, and what it can do to the body? How much, exactly, do you know and understand about phobia's? Have you ever been pregnant before against your will?

 

Secondly, I'm not ignoring arguments

Zephyrgirl, I have asked you at least five different questions, none of which you have quoted and answered. Nor have you answered any of the other questions other users have asked you. So if you don't want people to assume you are ignoring them, please go back and answer the questions posed at you.

 

and I asked those questions in all honesty.

Good to know.

 

Your answers merely did nothing to sway or satisfy me. I still don't understand how a clump of cells could create maternal feelings and I have yet to see a clear answer.

I answered your question on the previous page. If it doesn't satisfy you, or the other answers, pick apart the posts and ask your questions.

 

And, yes, I do agree that there are other issues that need to be worked on, I've stated this before. The mother needs just as much attention as her child and a fare ans straight foreward presentation of the whole picture without drama or hidden issues.

 

If by hidden issues you mean "lets show the woman everything we are doing to her and force her to listen to a heartbeat and see an ultrasound that she must pay for out of pocket and likely can't afford to traumatise her," then that picture is as twisted as the Pro-Birth agenda is.

Edited February 17, 2012 by SockPuppet Strangler

[xhunter]

First off an ultra-sound is NOT gory. It merely shows the woman the whole picture and if the doctors are doing their job right, they won't load a guilt trip on the mother.

 

I'm not meaning to be insulting or rude, but it seems naive to think that pregnancy is the ultimate of suffering, which is how you all seem to be making it sound. I'm not implying that you all are niave, only that it sounds that way.

 

Secondly, I'm not ignoring arguments and I asked those questions in all honesty. Your answers merely did nothing to sway or satisfy me.

even if it is not gory it still has no real use other than get extra $$ out of people that are already jumping, or walking can't see anyone pre. jumping threw anything, hoops. mostly it is to make it harder to get abortions as well as get the hospitals more cash, most hospitals are getting there cash threw these things and taking peoples homes as well as taxes every year, but the main point is that it is harder for a poor woman with no medical help in money wise to get them. another reason is because of guilt but that is a extra if they can get it.

 

personalty i can see no productive reason for a ultra sound unless its just curiosity or gender related. it too is naive to think that it is not suffering when there are so many that will tell you that it hurts and is miserable as well as costly. my mother would be an example because she had to get shots in order for her body not to reabsorb my clump of cells as they were becoming a fetus.

i don't think that morning sickness is very convenate for working single females that jobs pay nothing. the reason i replied like this is because i never had offspring though i had a bad scare once because of it because of rape from a family member i will not name. though i doubt you had offspring either or you would know of the discomforts of ones that i heard about for mothers that kept there young. many women that say they would do it age if they could though none of them would say that your not miserable threw the process, they just see the pain worth the price.

 

not all answers are swaying or satisfying all you have done is fished of answers from those that see things your way though that is respectable to a degree. and i shortly hope they were asked in honesty.

[Rosedamai]

However, there are worse things that can happen, much worse things, than carrying a child to term. I'm not meaning to be insulting or rude, but it seems naive to think that pregnancy is the ultimate of suffering, which is how you all seem to be making it sound. I'm not implying that you all are niave, only that it sounds that way. 

Sorry. It would literally be the worst cast scenario if I were to be pregnant as-1. I would have to quit my education 2. My family will disown me 3. I would be socially ostrasized to the point that I would be hardly able to get a job as a waiter at McDonalds and 4. All those fsctors combined would make me and my child that much more poor. I'd literally be dead that faced with handing down poverty down my future descendants.

 

Would be worse if I was in high school, the school would be fully within their rights to kick me out. At least if I were to get pregnant now I'd be a high school graduate.

 

Not everyone has the means or the ability or the social support to raise a baby on his/her own.

 

Secondly, I'm not ignoring arguments

Oh? So what's your take on sex-selective abortions then? Those can only happen if you go through an ultrasound to look at the gender of the fetus.

Edited February 12, 2012 by ylangylang

[tyto_alba]

-snip-

 

However, there are worse things that can happen, much worse things, than carrying a child to term. I'm not meaning to be insulting or rude, but it seems naive to think that pregnancy is the ultimate of suffering, which is how you all seem to be making it sound.

 

-snip-

Women who have a phobia of being pregnant would disagree with you, I think.

[Princess Artemis]

It was relevant.

No it wasn't because attempting to reduce mandatory spending != giving no thought to people after they are born. It's such a completely different thing that it doesn't even compute.

 

There's certainly something to be said about the elephantine behemoth that is known as the political third rail, but this isn't the thread to say it in.

 

"Pro-abortion" means you're for legalizing abortion.

 

No it doesn't. As Fuzz said, pro-legalizing-abortion is for the legalizing of abortion. Pro-abortions means "Oooh abortion, YAY!" and that's why people who disagree with pro-choice stance use it to paint that stance as an "oooh abortion, yay!" stance.

 

There are terms of art, but this is not one of them. To use pro-abortion to mean pro-legalized-abortion is to participate in the undermining and obfuscation of the language.

 

I'm not meaning to be insulting or rude, but it seems naive to think that pregnancy is the ultimate of suffering, which is how you all seem to be making it sound. I'm not implying that you all are niave, only that it sounds that way.

 

"You all"? This thread in total does have a habit of making pregnancy sound like the worst thing ever, but please don't say "you all" are making it sound that way. Not all of us who have responded to you have said anything remotely sounding like that.