Abortion

[Vhale]

How is this a cruel and unusual punishment?

The problem is what do we do when it is? Who gets to decide that? Pregnancy doesn't wait for juries and courts.

 

One of the cases cited is a Polish woman who had eye trouble and was told she'd likely go blind if she gave birth to a third child. So, she tried to opt for an abortion. She was denied. She won a human's right case against what happened to her. But her eyes are still damaged.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6470403.stm

 

Personally I used to do daycare. We had a little boy and girl whose father basically blackmailed their mother into having children. He threatened to divorce her after she had told him very clearly, before marrying, she did not want them. And in the US, women can't just get their tubes tied.

 

She would vocally, matter-of-factly, calmly and consistently tell other parents, in front of her son, how his father had done this. How she hated kids and didn't want them. We found marks on his arms that looked suspiciously like cigarette burns. His parents also told us that he had started doing things like opening the produce drawer in the fridge and peeing in it. This kid was 5. His mother was determined to turn him into a future serial killer. We contacted child services. They did... nothing.

[AngelKitty]

You have to ask why forcing people to carry foetuses is cruel and unusual punishment?

This. How is forcing someone to carry an unwanted parasite for nine months and then forcing them to painfully squeeze it out of their body or endure an invasive surgery to get it out NOT cruel and unusual?

[ginevra]

Personally I used to do daycare. We had a little boy and girl whose father basically blackmailed their mother into having children. He threatened to divorce her after she had told him very clearly, before marrying, she did not want them. And in the US, women can't just get their tubes tied.

 

She would vocally, matter-of-factly, calmly and consistently tell other parents, in front of her son, how his father had done this. How she hated kids and didn't want them. We found marks on his arms that looked suspiciously like cigarette burns. His parents also told us that he had started doing things like opening the produce drawer in the fridge and peeing in it. This kid was 5. His mother was determined to turn him into a future serial killer. We contacted child services. They did... nothing.

This is Horrible! But sadly not as uncommon as one would think. But it does not get talked about it because people would rather be blind and live in their little perfect world.

 

I have a friend who has found out that she is carrying a severely handicapped, child. Before my health got bad, I worked with handicapped children and I saw how it can either bring a family closer or tear them apart. If you can't physically or financially take care of the child, it becomes very hard. And what happens if the parents die? Then the child, if it doesn't have relatives able to take care of it, ends up in the state system. Which is already over burdened. Many states do not even have programs to help people with special needs children.

 

My friend will have to make a very difficult decision soon. What ever she decides I hope it will be her choice and not a government mandate. Whatever her choice I hope that if she chooses to end the pregnancy, that she can do so safely and with out added shame and guilt from our legal system. This is not a choice one makes lightly. It is a choice that should be left up to the mother, with help from her husband and full cooperation of her Doctor. The government has no place in this decision.

Edited March 21, 2012 by ginevra

[babybluefire]

How is this a cruel and unusual punishment?

I am catholic, however if I was pregnant with a child that had died or would die painfully shortly after birth I would be horrified to be forced to carry that pregnancy to term. Plus with the added danger of carrying a dead or dyeing baby to my current health and further reproductive health I would be extraordinarily angry.

 

 

 

[gravity404]

Apologies for the drive-by linking. But I've been harassing my sister, who is a registered Republican, about Santorum for awhile. Needless to say, she and her husband are rather horrified about the current state of the primaries. But, they still want to vote Republican or not at all. That's a big part of the problem here. It's very similar to what happened with Prohibition. An extremist group got their candidates into the primaries and won them, because not so many people vote. Then everyone else votes straight party ticket. And bam, you get something completely crazy, like Prohibition. The same thing is playing out now with abortion, birth control, health care, immigration. And there does seem to be a correlation about how all this is happening at once.

 

I also think it's important for people to understand that this anti-abortion legislation does NOT just affect abortion. It's affecting health care, education, insurance, privacy laws.

 

Also, don't try too hard to make this into a men vrs women issue. It's not. It's a Evangelical/Catholic vrs Not issue. There are plenty of men that are happy to see their ladies get good health care.

 

Anyways, the email and links.

 

First link deals with ALEC. Apparently it's an elite conservative organization that is 40 years old, that specializes in writing legislation for state to pass. Which seems to be where a lot of these bills are coming from. They are similar because the same group wrote them.

Who and What is ALEC?

 

One of the more worrying Anti-Abortion bills. I remember the clinic shootings when I was in school. It was ugly.

Tennessee's Bill

From the article:

"The Life Defense Act of 2012, sponsored by state Rep. Matthew Hill (R-Jonesboro), mandates that the Tennessee Department of Health make detailed demographic information about every woman who has an abortion available to the public, including her age, race, county, marital status, education level, number of children, the location of the procedure and how many times she has been pregnant. Each report would also have to include the name of the doctor who performed the procedure."

 

Georgia's Bill that would require a women to carry a dead baby to term because, Cows and Pigs have to do that.

Georgia's Bill

 

Arizona's bill that would require a woman seeking birth control to provide detailed medical information to her employer. The same bill repeals a law making it illegal for an employer to fire a woman for taking birth control. Yes, this includes married women.

Arizona's Bill

 

Idaho's Bill, which does not include an exemption for victims of rape and incest. The lawmaker pushing the bill is concerned women will lie about being raped and use that as an excuse to get an abortion.

Idaho's Bill

 

New Hampshire's Bill that forces Doctor's to hand out information that is not medically sound, IE linking abortion to breast cancer

New Hampshire's Bill

 

Pennsylvania's Bill requiring a transvaginal ultrasound: The lawmaker explains that if women don't like it, "they should just close their eyes".

Pennsylvania's Bill

 

Wisconson's legislature, speaks about being against divorce in all cases, even spousal abuse.

Wisconsin Foolishness

And his colleague has a bill in the running to make being a Single Parent a cause of child abuse.

Wisconsin Part Deux

I included these bits about Wisconsin because I think it shows how... freakish these bills are. On the one hand, we've got a group moving against birth control and abortion. And at the same time, they want to stigmatize, if not criminalize, single mothers and divorce.

 

Explanation over the current partisan divide over renewing the Violence Against Women Act. A bill that never had a partisan divide before.

http://www.salon.com/2012/03/20/the_coming..._against_women/

 

Did I even mention Texas robbing 70 million out of it's women's health funding? Then losing all their federal funding?

 

And Romney has been very clear, he will kill all funding to Planned Parenthood. So there is more of that to come.

Romney, vote for the other guy

 

4.28.12

There is a plan for a nationwide rally against the current crop of laws. Much like the Million Mom March. The organizing is at http://www.wearewomenmarch.net/

 

And just for fun, Rick Santorum. What's horrifying is how high this man is in the polls.

Who cares about unemployment?

Rick doesn't care about unemployment. Because he feels it's more important to combat porn and make that illegal. That does rather follow the current crop of bills doesn't it? I'd say he's the most honest candidate on the trail.

Rick Vrs Porn

 

I suspect that's more reading than most want to do. Just remember, voting in local elections is important! This includes primaries!

Register to Vote!

 

Voter registration link provided by http://www.lwv.org/

 

Banners about the march can also be found here:

http://www.wearewoman.us/2012/02/unite-aga...omen-press.html

If only I were old enough to vote...

*runs off to email contacts who are 18+*

[Kestra15]

With the "It's unnatural!" arguments, this Sir Terry Pratchett quote comes to mind...

'Not natural, in my view, sah. Not in favor of unnatural things.'

Vetinari looked perplexed. 'You mean, you eat your meat raw and sleep in a tree?'

Have an Epic Point for slipping in the Terry Prachett quote.

See, things like mandating gestation sounds an awful lot like cruel and unusual punishment.  Enforced gestation and delivery sounds like a tool of nazi germany.  >:  I am very very afraid about imposing restrictions on abortion if it means people will be forced to bear children in certain circumstances.

Being half-German I would like to point out not only is this incredibly offensive a comparison, but also a classic Godwin's Law ;~)

I honestly didn't (still kinda don't) like the idea of abortion. It really took me awhile to get used to the idea of technically killing someone.

No, it's not. A fetus is not yet defined as to being life or not, so it is not yet defined as being a person - therefore a termination cannot be defined as 'killing.' If we could define whether or not a fetus is a life in and of itself then this debate would be much simpler.

 

1. trees are more important than the human race. their the reason there is a livable atmosphere for oxygen breathing creatures.

Actually, algae do more than trees ;~)

 

And seriously guys, make your mind up about males. If we're supposed to take equal blame for creating the mess, then don't turn around in the same breath and make the argument that we have no say in what happens after. I agree the ultimate decision should lie with the woman, and that it does take two to tango in this case. But don't turn around and say we have *no* right to make the decision. You wonder why some guys wipe their hands clean of this topic, is because we are the bad guys *and* we don't get a say in the matter - talk about a one-sided contest.

 

Case-by-case, the woman should have ultimate choice. I will never argue against that. But in the overall topic why should my opinion be worthless? What about my feelings on the matter? What about the fact that you might be murdering a man's child in his eyes by having an abortion? Why should male scientists, doctors, midwives etc with all the benefit of medical research and long study not have a say, when they may be the ones bringing important or ground-breaking evidence to the table?

 

If you want men to take responsibility, also give them their say. Otherwise you will find that they shrug and ignore it - after all, if we're always in the wrong and our feelings won't be considered, why should we give a carp about you?

Edited March 22, 2012 by Kestra15

[xhunter]

Actually, algae do more than trees ;~)

 

And seriously guys, make your mind up about males. If we're supposed to take equal blame for creating the mess, then don't turn around in the same breath and make the argument that we have no say in what happens after. I agree the ultimate decision should lie with the woman, and that it does take two to tango in this case. But don't turn around and say we have *no* right to make the decision. You wonder why some guys wipe their hands clean of this topic, is because we are the bad guys *and* we don't get a say in the matter - talk about a one-sided contest.

 

Case-by-case, the woman should have ultimate choice. I will never argue against that. But in the overall topic why should my opinion be worthless? What about my feelings on the matter? What about the fact that you might be murdering a man's child in his eyes by having an abortion? Why should male scientists, doctors, midwives etc with all the benefit of medical research and long study not have a say, when they may be the ones bringing important or ground-breaking evidence to the table?

 

If you want men to take responsibility, also give them their say. Otherwise you will find that they shrug and ignore it - after all, if we're always in the wrong and our feelings won't be considered, why should we give a carp about you?

I know i was just going with the question. which is more important human or tree. if we go there though we could say water is more important than all those too. LOL

 

1. for the male part. i think it is important but not as important because, within the USA, the constitution states that we have freedoms over our own bodies. even though the first part was only made for white males i just go with the newest ones and go by the old one to include others than the just for white male rules. that is what kinda got everything in a knot if you ask me. though it still irks me when people try to call the founding fathers all christian because it does not make sense sense that is the reason they fled their homes in the first place, i have nothing again the founding fathers sense the past is the past and they were who they were.

 

males can't have the babies so it only affect them mentally, yes it might affect them that way but it does them no bodily damage. both should be forced to take responsibly if one person is forced to keep the child. but even when they try and force the male to take responsibly by child support, most don't do it and go to jail and they still don't pay child support or even help rear the child, and now day jails are Paradise compared to anything else from the past.

 

so in all the justice system does not help the female even by sending the male to jail. we should take equal blame but by the Constitution we are not to cause another harm so do we need to let someone make a choice that can hurt another and when the child is born what then? the male is not harmed physically in the process of carrying the child. i am assuming you know what the development cycle of a fetus does to a woman so i will skip ex. but it does do damage.

 

my line other thought is males have zero chance of physical pain or damage from birthing so how can they vote for it? it would like having someone that identifies all plant types and have them identify animal markings on a corpse the person has no idea what to look for. yes its good to have a males thought on it but i don't like that the ones that know nothing of what women go threw have to handle when there forced to keep something that they can't care for and the system can't care for either. most of them, and some females, don't pay attentions to the harm caused to a mother and the child if the child is kept and how it affects everyone else.

 

but i am mostly irked by those that don't know, don't care to know, and ignore the problems they cause others and the suffering, mental and physical, and the country systems. the constatution would say males have no right to that choice because there not the ones that suffer physical damage its the female that has to carry the child. i care more for what is and not what can be, "never count your chickens before they hatch."

 

and of the present males get all the say in the matter. who do you think makes all those laws to make it hard for a poor woman to get an abortion? male reps. and law makes. females are the ones how has to fight for the right to preserve their futures and the futures of there healths, i know i what the abortion choice if anything ever happens to me and i can level with those than need them now or have the same concerns. i don't want to attack anyone but it is a proven fact, males have all the say on what a woman can do about a abortion even if its not meant that way. i value a males though even if it irks me 'if' they know what there talking about and not that stuff that is watered down that misses everything that is sensitive. that sensitive part is important and that is what people need to be concerned with the most. yes in forms it sometimes might be one way but in law making the favor is all to the males that make the laws and not the females, we females can only hope their are enough voters against the laws by keeping them informed on the true nature of what will happen if their past.

 

it all comes down to what is important in votes is that people know everything they can know on the subject and not go by how the questions are worded to decide, yes people do that.

 

i value your thoughts as long as there thought out and you can support them with something other than religion. no ones comment is ever worthless but its just a word for thought type of thing, we can't make a assumption that a bear did the killing if we ask a plant expert to identify it. if the man worry that it is murder of his own child he can talk with the woman and see if there is another willing to carry the child, i think that is possible now days. and the man should have considered the possibility of abortion if he knows that the woman he had sex with was to poor, and if he did not what to be responsible of caring for the kid, and unwilling to carry a child for him to not have sex with her if there was any chance he had a bad brand of protection or had doubts about trusting her. might sound mean but men need to consider that just as much as a woman. we all need to understand what a woman and man needs to consider and what they don't need to consider to reduce abortion taken. you always have to be careful of your partner and considerate.

 

bringing a ground-breaking evidence is important but you have to consider others and not yourself, abortion affects everyone and don't think the males are the only ones affected mentally when it comes to having one. a woman has to do what she thinks is right if she can't care for the child and on one else can either, we might be animals but we need to think about everything because what we do affects every human and animal alive. my favorite quote i ever though up is "Humans live fleeting lives though that does not mean that our acts and minds should be just as fleeting."

 

humans nature has us to work together in our groups but we must consider that not one person should have the highest amount of say on a subject if it can't physically hurt them. what is good for the goose is not always what is good for the gander history proves this.

 

but no your thoughts are not always useless and there are many that respect your thoughts, i respect half of your thoughts myself.

 

but we give men their chances to be responsible and its not to pleasant when they don't what to take up there responsibly one bad apple might not ruin the bunch but more than one apple does. its because those bad apples that don't want to take responsiblity that it slides more to the women to decide and it does not help the males case with they are making laws that would hurt the system as well as a number of women and those children the males don't what anything to do with.

 

and if males don't give a carp about us why should we give a carp about them, males are not the 'the top dog' of any race though nether is the female. women will consider males when they consider us and not try to use us just to satisfy their ego about having their legacy past. not saying your bad but you might want to consider the female thoughts before you consider yourself higher on the subject. if we don't considers others, others will never consider us and the mess will just get bigger and bigger. that is a proven fact too.

[Zovesta]

On the topic of it being a cruel and unusual punishment: I adore children and babies and being a woman. I also adore having rights. c: While I might carry a baby and go through birth if I had the choice, I would hate the feeling of oppression if I was being forced to. It's the choice part that matters.

[Kestra15]

As I said, I do think the woman should have the ultimate say, but before you say that it 'doesn't affect men,' consider what a man has to do if the child is born, how much support he has to give to mother and child - and what he stands to loose if it is taken to court. Equally the loss of the child is an emotional strain which you should never, ever write off as being "just." If you have ever lost someone you love - and I mean someone close to you, not some long-lost relative you met once as a baby - then you'll know that when you lose someone it is never "just" mental pain that you go through. It can become all-consuming and you can take years to recover - that's if you ever do.

 

but we give men their chances to be responsible and its not to pleasant when they don't what to take up there responsibly one bad apple might not ruin the bunch but more than one apple does. its because those bad apples that don't want to take responsiblity that it slides more to the women to decide...

Sexist much?

 

There is, in *everything,* more than one bad apple. My previous two girlfriends were utter dogs; one was a parasite that sucked off my dying grandfather, one was a cheating, lying, manipulating cow. So does that mean I should hate and distrust all women just because I met more than one bad apple? No.

 

Yes, you can go on about how many fathers have run off into the night if you want, but for every absent father I've ever not met, I've come across tens, even hundreds of dads who stuck around. You can't make your entire judgement based off one or two bad cases.

 

though it still irks me when people try to call the founding fathers all christian because it does not make sense sense that is the reason they fled their homes in the first place, i have nothing again the founding fathers sense the past is the past and they were who they were.

Wrong, actually. The original English settlers to America left England because England was too lax in their religion and wanted to found a stricter Christian society.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Kestra15

[xhunter]

As I said, I do think the woman should have the ultimate say, but before you say that it 'doesn't affect men,' consider what a man has to do if the child is born, how much support he has to give to mother and child - and what he stands to loose if it is taken to court. Equally the loss of the child is an emotional strain which you should never, ever write off as being "just." If you have ever lost someone you love - and I mean someone close to you, not some long-lost relative you met once as a baby - then you'll know that when you lose someone it is never "just" mental pain that you go through. It can become all-consuming and you can take years to recover - that's if you ever do.

 

 

Sexist much?

 

There is, in *everything,* more than one bad apple. My previous two girlfriends were utter dogs; one was a parasite that sucked off my dying grandfather, one was a cheating, lying, manipulating cow. So does that mean I should hate and distrust all women just because I met more than one bad apple? No.

 

Yes, you can go on about how many fathers have run off into the night if you want, but for every absent father I've ever not met, I've come across tens, even hundreds of dads who stuck around. You can't make your entire judgement based off one or two bad cases.

 

 

Wrong, actually. The original English settlers to America left England because England was too lax in their religion and wanted to found a stricter Christian society.

1. i noted the assumption i was informing you. and for walking that road women have more mental pain than males they have to be the ones to make that ''hard" decision. not all woman use abortion as just as loosely as birth control a lot of them have more than valid reason. ask as one of the people here what they went threw mentally, the ones that had to have a abortion because they knew it was right for them. yes the male suffers some but it passing like it does for women though the physical damage sticks around longer still and sometimes to the grave if the preg. did not send them there. mental damage is never just but both the male 'and' female feel mental damage with making the decision so who's mental damage is more important? humm. think is all that i ask of you and ask some of those around you the ones that had to go threw it on the females side as well as the males side. don't play victim it discredits your statements. plus as you stated the fetus would be a ex. of a long lost relative for a male its the taunting of what could have been in most cases that causing the pain under a lot of conditions.

 

2.Sexist much back to you. funny really you seem to assume i'm sexist the sterotyped sexist maybe? i could say the same to you for your last comment on females. i am a little sexist, no point lying, thought for good reason those sexist normaly have reasons . but back to the subject, i will not let my sexist behavior affect by beliefs on abortion, i am a person that believes in facts and i state them as such as well as open my mind to possibilities. more than one bad apple does affect more than you would imagine humans are not apples. fathers or mothers that abandon a child at birth affect everyone around them and other people see that to. a apple can't see that there is a rotting apple beside it so it can't judge. people can see, smell, ect. a bad person and what they do. this can affect full towns mentally defiantly smaller ones where everyone knows everyone. i don't discredit that a woman can't do anything wrong in a relation but so can a male. plus when these people see this type of stuff they take it other ways. on ones feeling are the same and they react differently to different subjects, just like mice i had enough to know and i did enough of rising and studding diff. behavior in mice to compare it to human behavior i seen in my town. I don't let sexist behavior ever affect my though i use facts, facts are solid and valid, not sexist behavior.

 

3. maybe so but that is not the same for the whole US that you see its just one small part, a less infected part. and its not one or two bad cases if you would read closely that i pin it to only those untrained to expand thinking do that. its data and treated as data.

 

4, back at you. http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

 

"Those people who spread this lie are known as Christian Revisionists. They are attempting to rewrite history, in much the same way as holocaust deniers are. The men responsible for building the foundation of the United States were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christianity. They were Deists who did not believe the bible was true. They were Freethinkers who relied on their reason, not their faith."

 

yes there might have been one or two Christians within the founding fathers but most were atheist and people like that. your christian churches would re wright all of history if they could, please look it up if you may. there is enough evidence to prove the point. this link is only one. England had a stricter christian culture than the settlers when they divided across the Americas, even when they were killing the Indians. this link goes into detail of reasons. i don't know what church told you this of school but you'd be surprised how much religion has tampered with history.

[Kestra15]

Like I stated before, I believe men have no place in abortion.

And yet if you carried the child to term, you'll expect them to support the child and will sue them out of house and home if they don't?

 

Can't have it both ways sister; either we have some say and involvement in both cases, or no say and involvement.

i am a person that believes in facts

...

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

I was the third gunman on the grassy knoll.

 

Sexist much back to you. funny really you seem to assume i'm sexist the sterotyped sexist maybe?

Nope, can't see the sexism. And no point did I say that my exes were parasites because they were women, nor did I say that all women are parasites because of the experiences of my exes. In fact, if you actually read it you'll see I explicitly point out I don't believe that all women are parasites just because of a few bad experiences. Your stance, however, is that a few bad examples means we're all rotten.

. maybe so but that is not the same for the whole US that you see its just one small part, a less infected part. and its not one or two bad cases if you would read closely that i pin it to only those untrained to expand thinking do that. its data and treated as data.

Frankly I have to guess what you're referring to here, amongst all the bad SPAG and not actually stating what you're referring to, but I assume you're talking about the runaway fathers? For one, I'm in the UK and not the US. Secondly, could you please back up with some of that data how many absent fathers there are, and also for what reasons these fathers are absent.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Kestra15

[Fuzzbucket]

Actually I think the "founding fathers" included both extreme Christians AND a fair number of non-Christians. That is a website that has something of an agenda, I think.

[xhunter]

And yet if you carried the child to term, you'll expect them to support the child and will sue them out of house and home if they don't?

 

Can't have it both ways sister; either we have some say and involvement in both cases, or no say and involvement.

 

 

Nope, can't see the sexism. And no point did I say that my exes were parasites because they were women, nor did I say that all women are parasites because of the experiences of my exes. In fact, if you actually read it you'll see I explicitly point out I don't believe that all women are parasites just because of a few bad experiences. Your stance, however, is that a few bad examples means we're all rotten.

 

Frankly I have to guess what you're referring to here, amongst all the bad SPAG and not actually stating what you're referring to, but I assume you're talking about the runaway fathers? For one, I'm in the UK and not the US. Secondly, could you please back up with some of that data how many absent fathers there are, and also for what reasons these fathers are absent.

1. if the woman is forced to carry the child then they need to be payed for there diconforts to take care of the child. simple. fair.

 

2.sexism can't always be seen by the one infected by it. like with racism most blacks can't see that their racist when they do what the whites of the past did, its always white or black or this brother is trying to act white. please take this in mind and how your words are conveying to others, it will save a lot of nasty words.

 

3.we all are rotting and rotten, its when on rotten behavior affect others that it becomes a problem. if we go with a christian stance every human is rotting most defiantly the church that sin and ex. to be forgiven because they support their sky god. as any other cultures i'm shore they would not call Christians saints but demons.

 

4.I'm taking about abortion in USA not UK understand this. i am taking in account everything you say but your making me doubt your truthfulness in your words about your beliefs. i am pointing out who i'm taking about and i did on one of my first replys to you. "males that abandon a mother and child when he catches wind that it is his." "the ones they go to jail because they refuse to pay child support" "and the males that what the woman to keep the child even if they don't what to support it." this clear enough for you to see threw the sand in your eyes? i'm not shore if your not considering my key words or just trying to back yourself out of a hole you put yourself. I'M not trying to vitimize anyone. negative facts can be very important pieces of data the truth is not always bunnies and flowers. i disagree on ignoring the negative because if we do that we are bound to make the same mistakes. we learn from the negative more than what is positive people take the positive for granted.

nasty words or phrases don't work. but back on subject.

here are some links if this is what your talking about

(still looking for the % but it seems that it was deemed unimportant by someone)

(typing this into google will get you a few more links. Fathers abandon child after birth + reasons putting "" around each will be a little more precise.)

(comments are mostly negative but good pointers)

http://howdoigetmyexboyfriendback.org/1021...ple-has-a-baby/

(comments from a essay a better pleasant read)

http://chronikler.com/europe/gender-issues/why-do-men-leave/

 

Edit: can't find any charts on just males or females only finding them on both parent abandonment will let you know if i find it though.

Edited March 23, 2012 by xhunter

[kiffren]

Um can we all calm down a bit? There's no reason to call each other names. I get it, this is a personal topic that a lot of people feel strongly about. However, that doesn't excuse calling each other names.

 

----

 

I agree that a man should have to help pay child support if a child is carried to term, though that's not what's being argued. As for his say about the abortion. Well, in a healthy relationship I'd hope that he and his significant other would talk about getting the abortion and that they would support each other through it. However, there are abused women in relationships they can't get out of. If one of these women wanted an abortion she should be able to get it with no say from the man. If any woman for any reason wants to get an abortion, she shouldn't be required to have the father agree. Not all marriages are healthy relationships, so I don't think it is our place to tell anyone that the man needs some say.

 

This does not mean that a man doesn't feel emotional pain about an abortion. This just means that he may not have the right to a say. I would simply hope that those in a healthy relationship would discuss the abortion before it happened.

[Obscure_Trash]

Heading over to religion in a sec, because I'd love to discuss/expand my knowledge on the founding fathers argument. :3

 

~

 

To just post my pure opinion on how I would handle a pregnancy/want it handled:

-I think a man can speak his opinion, but it is the woman's decision

-I actually think that, just as the woman gets a say in what role she wants to play in the child's life (or not) in that it's her decision to abort/give up for adoption/hand rights to the father/raise the child/etc., so should the man. I see why child support can be needed, but I also don't think it's fair. (Assuming everything on the basis that people are responsible creatures and not just going around getting knocked up or knocking people up in some sick power play game of control or something.) In my own personal case, I wouldn't force the man to pay if he didn't want to be involved (if, by some miracle, I have a complete turn around and want a kid, lol). In the end, it's best when people are able to be responsible and decide when they are ready to become a parent, whether single or with another person/s. People shouldn't be forced no matter the gender.

-This. The communication and respect is great, IMO: warning for some language in comments

to about 3:34.

[xhunter]

Heading over to religion in a sec, because I'd love to discuss/expand my knowledge on the founding fathers argument. :3

 

~

 

-This. The communication and respect is great, IMO: warning for some language in comments

to about 3:34.

1. no problem somehow we all ended up there. hopefully we will find our way back.

 

2. communication is always a important thing but that was a little creepy. LOL but I've seen creepier. people need to understand how to communicate but we have such different reacting it sometimes makes it impossible.

 

kiffren: but sometimes those cases are hard to get wind off because there terrified of the spouse though sometimes woman are the abusive. but that is only one good reason in my personal thought. any health relation would talk about it but that sometimes can kill a healthy relation too.

[Obscure_Trash]

Well, the movie is about Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Dwellers, so it's bound to be a little creepy. =p

 

Movie was in the 80s and the saddest thing that highlights for me is just how unlikely a scene like that is to be in a movie today. We're sending a completely different message on how to handle people, relationships, etc. =|

[xhunter]

Movie was in the 80s and the saddest thing that highlights for me is just how unlikely a scene like that is to be in a movie today. We're sending a completely different message on how to handle people, relationships, etc. =|

agreed, i will have to go watch the whole thing later, i'v never heard of it till today.

 

the meda only wants to appeal to voilance and things they think is cool that gets money. skinny modiles, cute little babies without ex. how it really is, degrading of different castes of people, and the likes. it just doesn't help things when it comes to subjects like abortion, depression, gay rights, woman rights, human rights, and the lot. yes it's intertanment but i don't think that a show about someone being 16 and pregnant is morally good or making out of fat people. what was it called again? The biggest loser? why would someone what to do something that is that humiliating even for money? its surprise me what actually survives in the media. that is a major influence to any country, the different medias that is.

[Kestra15]

I do. Because, y'know what? After that child has left OUR bodies, it becomes your respnsibility, too.

 

That's an extremely black and white statement for a subject that's all gray. In fact, it's more of a very ignorant ultimatum than anything, because that's basically saying that "I can tell you what to do and, if you do it, I'll have no problems supporting you. If you oppose me, though, then you're not worth my time and neither is that child that I helped create." That's the message that came across to me, anyway. However, if that's not what you meant, then, please, iterate yourself more.

It is an ultimatum, yes. If you believe that the woman can have an abortion without ever once consulting the father about how he feels about it, or want to keep the child without telling him, then why on earth should he bother with the outcome either way? It's not his choice after all, so face the consequences?

 

However this is, as Kiff pointed out, in any half-decent, healthy relationship. As I have always argued, it is not only a case-by-case argument, but as I stated earlier it is naturally the woman's final decision regardless of the male's feelings. But don't cut him out altogether, otherwise you will probably find him cutting you out altogether - and don't go running off crying when he does.

 

Hunter, rather than evading the question then please answer it - what sexism did I display? And those links you provided are not exactly balanced, researched, neutral sources.

[Kestra15]

But, do I think that a man should have to pay child support if a woman deems him an unfit father? Yes. It's a deep-rooted belief of mine. That child is half his. He needs to step up to the plate and take responsibility. If he wants to be involved in the child's life, then he should clean up, mature, and get his priorities in order.

 

All in all, I think we see eye to eye here, except on the case of child support. But, hey. Everyone has differing opinions. If they didn't, then abortion wouldn't be an issue.

Don't get me wrong - I do think the father should support the child. I firmly believe that myself. What I oppose is when the decision to keep or get rid of the child is unilateral - in which case that should be taken into account when it comes to child support issues. But fit or not, the father should indeed help out even if it is only to pay up.

[skinst]

I'd also like to wager that the reverse should be true too. I am a supporter of taking children away from their mother if she is a horrible mother and given to the father if he is a good father. I often feel that men get a raw deal in the custody cases, as the man my mother used to live with had to fight tooth and nail to gain custody over his two youngest children (the mother, to put it as politely as possible, was very lazy and very self centred) when frankly the argument should have been a simple one.

 

He had a full time job with my mum also working part time. The mother was on unemployment benefits. He had an 7 bedroom house (renovated hospital wing, my family isn't that rich ) she had a two bedroom place with 4 kids crammed together in one room (three boys and one girl).

 

While both of them sucked as parents, the father was definitely a better option.

 

Yet it still took some 3 years to gain custody, along with a great deal of money in the process. That, to me, is wrong.

 

I will always support men's input into abortion when it comes to their partner so long as said relationship is consensual, and the relationship is stable, loving and non-abusive. However, if the relationship is not those things then I think the man's opinion becomes a case by case thing.

[xhunter]

 

Hunter, rather than evading the question then please answer it - what sexism did I display? And those links you provided are not exactly balanced, researched, neutral sources.

O were was your question asked? but anyway sense its up now i will point out the comments that suggest it.

 

"after all, if we're always in the wrong and our feelings won't be considered, why should we give a carp about you? " - within the US and Not UK as i pointed out males are less than responsible and here is a link for the US. the suggestion is in bold and why should we give a carp about you? a male should give a carp because its his child that he wants the woman to carry. the only thing in the USA that the males care mostly about is only the offspring that they forced on the mother, or accendently got her preg. threw bad birth control. http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/04/opinion/benn...uble/index.html

 

"Can't have it both ways sister; either we have some say and involvement in both cases, or no say and involvement." -bolded part is the suggestion that you don't think the male should have to worry caring for the child and suggest that it should be kept by the female. with abortion a woman is getting rid of its a males chose that the female keeps it. when the law forces the woman to carry they need to force the male to pull his end because you know the mother doesn't want it in the first place. females aren't just concubines. if you want the mother to carry you have to be willing to pay your end.and if the woman IS forced then the male Should Be forced to Pay for the child. because you know the mother could always give the child to the system where it has very little chance of survival if it don't think about killing itself first. if a male wants the child to live and not pay for it why should the mother be forced to keep it with no help? or theres always leaving the child in a bathroom thing if she can't get rid of it threw a system. and where we live the male has all the say on female reporduction why do you think we a fighting for our rights now? in the UK you probably don't have that problem but in the USA we do.

 

"If you believe that the woman can have an abortion without ever once consulting the father about how he feels about it" the problem is they do in the US and then the male cuts all contacts half the time defiantly if it a one night stand type of thing because there normally not adult enough to face up to the responsibly when i was in school still i knew girls come in crying because there boyfriends have cut all ties so why should they get made when the girls want to get a abortion. girls try to talk to the boys when they get preg. in the US but the boys don't want to talk about it. i would punch half of them in the face and almost did one after i learned what they did to my class mate and had the nerve to think at lunch they could ask me out like nothing happened.

 

but if i'm right me and god.ofthedead are talking about within the USA not where you live. males might act different there than they do here. and why do you always assume we are trying to cut the male out all together we have pointed out that we don't. plus why does it matter that anyone is a little sexiest its natural its just a problem when it gets in the way of things that affects others. that's all. you act like its a snake that bit you when i pointed your question back at you.

 

none of this is meant as offence i'm just answering your question you just placed up. i don't ignore questions that is why i tell people to ask plainly i mean no offence if it offended you.

[Brite]

... how is abortion natural?

 

It's very natural. Animals do it ALL the time, and even kill and sometimes DEVOUR their young when food is scarce. Bears can make themselves miscarry when they think that they won't have enough for themselves. Since they MAKE themselves miscarry, that would be deemed as a natural abortion, where miscarries are usually accidents and unplanned. Sorry for such a late response

[Vhale]

The problem with trying to enforce is father having a say is the same as we've been seeing. How will that work? In an ideal situation, sure. But, that's not reality. So, how do we deal with situations that aren't the norm? And what are the penalties?

 

If a man wants a woman to carry a child and she does not, what do they do? And what are the limits? Are disabilities taken into account? Does the woman get sent to a halfway house of some type and monitored to enforce her good behavior? Does the man have to join her? If she becomes depressed and harms herself and the child, then is she charged with murder?

 

Let's look at fetal homicide laws. They were introduced due to the high profile cases of men murdering pregnant wives. IE, Lacy. 38 states that enacted them. In South Carolina for example, only one man has been prosecuted. The rest have been women that miscarried or had stillborn births. Over 300.

http://crooksandliars.com/karoli/miscarria...forgotten-women

 

Also think of the time factor. These choices have to be made QUICK. Between the cut off limit and discovering one is pregnant. Quicker than say, a rape victim's kit gets tested? Rape kits buried for 2 decades I don't want to put too many links on that subject, google and you'll find the same problem in many cities.

 

Lastly, if women had to give men notice beforehand, what would this mean for the sex trade? Think men want someone knocking on the door or leaving messages on their machine letting them know that the one night stand they paid for needs permission for an abortion? Condoms aren't 100%, neither is the pill. That could get colorful real fast.

[Obscure_Trash]

I often feel that men get a raw deal in the custody cases, as the man my mother used to live with had to fight tooth and nail to gain custody over his two youngest children (the mother, to put it as politely as possible, was very lazy and very self centred) when frankly the argument should have been a simple one.

 

Yep, no doubt about this, unfortunately. I read somewhere a while back that people instinctively think of mothers as nurturing, loving, and fully capable of taking care of of the children, while instinctively thinking of fathers as cold, distant, neglectful, incapable, and more likely to be abusive. It...doesn't make any sense. =\

 

Our system (US, anyway) for handling families, potential families, whatnot definitely has room for heavy improvement.