Protection for eggs/hatchlings gaining views behind the AP wall.

[Moonlight_Eevee]

39 minutes ago, inghelene said:

As for hunting bred eggs of someone else, it's only by gaining views this can be combated.

I would normally agree with you, however, there are 2 hatcheries that you can add by code: Silvi's Lair and Valley Sherwood. Even if the egg is in the ap, as long as you have the code, it can be added into these two sites.

 

Edit: might have misread this

Edited December 30, 2023 by MoonlightEevee

[inghelene]

15 minutes ago, MoonlightEevee said:

I would normally agree with you, however, there are 2 hatcheries that you can add by code: Silvi's Lair and Valley Sherwood. Even if the egg is in the ap, as long as you have the code, it can be added into these two sites.

 

Edit: might have misread this

No worries, I see how it could be misread. My point is basically that if we hatch and dump caveblocking eggs, you can keep the AP with more than 4 d till death, meaning no egg will have the time to hatch, even if added to a hatchery "too early".

Hope this clarifies and sorry for the poor formulation before.

[Shadowdrake]

I think an increase in hatching requirements is the best middle ground. Something that only protects desirable eggs like salts and Thuweds isn't an ideal mechanic, and dragons growing wild en masse every holiday is a more substantial issue, IMO.

 

View prevention 

Don't allow any dragons to gain views in AP.

Pros:

- prevents all dragons from growing in ap, assuming a view lock similar to stun

- denies any method of views

- could unlock when eggs are too low e.g. 24h left to prevent things dying en masse

 

Cons:

- prevents eggs from making progress and may stall holiday wall/massbred walls longer

- denies the original owner from giving it views for any reason

- less chance of regular ap having cracked or holey eggs

- easy to distinguish eggs in ap vs grabbed eggs

 

 

Hatchery AP lock

Don't allow dragons to be added to hatcheries while in AP.

Pros:

- prevents people's bred eggs from most viewbombing attempts

 

Cons:

- most likely requires updates to both API and hatcheries, so needs the hatchery owners to be available to update things

- has no effect on dragons that are already in AP and still gaining views (e.g. shoveled holiday hatchies) unless hatcheries are updated to check on their AP status as well

- can still be viewbombed if someone is doing it the old-fashioned way

- only affects on hatcheries that can add by code (silvi's, valley sherwood, ddf)

 

Hatchery AP lock + aid permissions

Honestly this is just a more complicated version of the above. Nearly same pros and cons aside from more eggs being able to get holes while in ap, though it allows the original owner to give it views if necessary.

 

 

Hatch/growth prevention

Don't allow any dragons to hatch or grow to adulthood while in AP.

Pros:

- allows dragons to still gain views and progress while in AP

- prevents all dragons from growing in ap

- could unlock when eggs are too low e.g. 24h left to prevent things dying en masse

- picking up cracked ap eggs will let them become instant hatchlings

- egg lore suggests dragons are less willing to hatch when they don't feel safe

 

Cons:

- due to being unable to grow, can be viewbombed by ER hatcheries or bad actors to sickness/death

 

 

Slower growth

Increase the amount of views required to hatch or grow while in AP.

Pros:

- allows dragons to still gain views and progress while in AP

- less risk of death than ERing an egg that can't hatch

- lowers risk of dragons growing in ap unless severely bombed or very low on time

- picking up cracked ap eggs will let them become instant hatchlings when AP slowdown is removed

- egg lore suggests dragons are less willing to hatch when they don't feel safe

 

Cons:

- still allows dragons to hatch and grow wild if AP times are too low or views too high

- can still be viewbombed with effort

Edited December 31, 2023 by Shadowdrake

[inghelene]

I don't think denying hatcheries from adding eggs without scrolls would do any difference; If I truly had ill intent I would just link to the egg as a signature on any high traffic site. (You know, the way this game was intended to be played originally.) Takes a bit of effort, but surely there are many with the access to do such.

[Fuzzbucket]

As has been said in another thread - creatures dying in the AP (which VERY rarely happens) is part of the game: 

 

8 hours ago, Whirlaway said:

I don't see how it is a problem for eggs or dragons to die in the Abandoned Page, during Holidays or not. What is the inherent wrong to dragons dying because people can't grab them? That is what the game itself says will happen and is a part of the game that is mentioned in regards to the Abandoned Page. The text for the abandon action on eggs/hatchies says "Abandon the egg to die. Others may claim the abandoned egg and take it as their own", while the link to the Abandoned Page says "Near the entrance to the cave, there are some abandoned eggs. If you don’t want the dragons inside to die, you can take one of those instead". 

 

I don't think this is an issue in the essence that it breaks the game, when the game warns us of what will and can happen in the Abandoned Page. 

 

 

And yes - it is very easy indeed to viewbomb without using a hatchery. I do it to my own stuff when I'm in a hurry.

[Myoukin]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:23 PM, inghelene said:

As for hunting bred eggs of someone else, it's only by gaining views this can be combated.

If hatchlings growing up outside of scroll is such a concern, picking up eggs, adding them to hatcheries and dumping them back is actually a pretty decent way to keep the AP over 4d, to ensure all hatclings are seen. Xeno breeding has been nerfed, but prior, this was the only way to ensure every xeno wall didn't end up sending the AP to the graveyard.

This sounds good in theory, but I've had many instances where I did exactly this, spending hours catching/adding/releasing eggs and it barely made a dent in the wall, sometimes only slowing down how fast the AP's timer ticked down.  A handful of times, it worked, but most of the time it's just a war of attrition; sometimes the wall is just too big, even when I do have time to sit down and grind away at it.

[inghelene]

9 hours ago, Myoukin said:

This sounds good in theory, but I've had many instances where I did exactly this, spending hours catching/adding/releasing eggs and it barely made a dent in the wall, sometimes only slowing down how fast the AP's timer ticked down.  A handful of times, it worked, but most of the time it's just a war of attrition; sometimes the wall is just too big, even when I do have time to sit down and grind away at it.

That is true, and believe me when I say I have been there myself.

However, removing the ability to hatch walls off scrolls will replace the chance of egg’s growing wild with a high chance of egg death.

Because we have to sit on every egg till hatch, the time spent will be so much more that a poorly timed massbreed can potentially kill eggs before they even can be caught. That or you pick it up with a few minutes left before it dies.

 

Whilst I don’t really mind a death wall on Halloween, I certainly mind a suggestion that will make it possible to re-create it outside of these holidays. 
To me, blocking views from accumulating outside the scroll will replace the issue it presents with a slightly better option for those highly desired eggs, but in return give potential users a lot of power to make every ap hunt pretty miserable on an almost daily basis.

 

Thus I am against this idea. Not because I think it’s easy to hatch and rescue eggs placed in Hatcheries, but because I believe the suggested solution is a bigger problem in and of itself.

Edited January 3 by inghelene

[Myoukin]

14 hours ago, inghelene said:

That is true, and believe me when I say I have been there myself.

However, removing the ability to hatch walls off scrolls will replace the chance of egg’s growing wild with a high chance of egg death.

Because we have to sit on every egg till hatch, the time spent will be so much more that a poorly timed massbreed can potentially kill eggs before they even can be caught. That or you pick it up with a few minutes left before it dies.

 

Whilst I don’t really mind a death wall on Halloween, I certainly mind a suggestion that will make it possible to re-create it outside of these holidays. 
To me, blocking views from accumulating outside the scroll will replace the issue it presents with a slightly better option for those highly desired eggs, but in return give potential users a lot of power to make every ap hunt pretty miserable on an almost daily basis.

 

Thus I am against this idea. Not because I think it’s easy to hatch and rescue eggs placed in Hatcheries, but because I believe the suggested solution is a bigger problem in and of itself.

A growth lock wouldn't prevent view accumulation, though, it would simply prevent the egg/hatchling from proceeding to the next stage until it's grabbed from the AP; someone also suggested a cap on unique views while eggs/hatchlings are sitting in the AP waiting to clear the wall, which could also be a good preventative measure to prevent malicious people viewbombing eggs/hatchlings to death.

 

Put all of this together with the growth lock being set as a one-time flag (similar to how a dragon can't be stunned if stun has already been used on it) that gets removed permanently once someone grabs it and I think that combination would work out well.

[Moriaty]

Still would like to suggest that the growth lock goes away when the egg reaches a certain age even without being picked up (as low as like 0d1h). if a death wall does happen and the precious & nice eggs that people want to look for is locked completely behind that wall and unable to be ever picked up, that egg is going to die and that kinda defeats the purpose stated in OP. Other than that I think a growth lock with a view upper limit lock that applies when the egg first get abandoned and wears off when first picked up again (thus ensuring that the egg *can * be picked up according to AP times) sounds like a very fleshed out combination.

Edited January 4 by Moriaty

[KageSora]

2 hours ago, Myoukin said:

A growth lock wouldn't prevent view accumulation, though, it would simply prevent the egg/hatchling from proceeding to the next stage until it's grabbed from the AP

 

I would have to vote against that, because it seems to me that risks the egg/hatchling proceeding to the next stage immediately upon being picked up.  What if it were a hatchling and the person didn't want it?  Couldn't throw it back so it just ends up dead or wild anyway.  I personally would absolutely not hesitate to release or kill a dragon I grabbed off the AP that matured on me before I had a chance to decide if I wanted it and throw it back if not.  So not sure that would, itself, solve the whole "people upset that dragons they willingly gave up all control over are ending up dead or wild" thing.

[Myoukin]

2 hours ago, KageSora said:

 

I would have to vote against that, because it seems to me that risks the egg/hatchling proceeding to the next stage immediately upon being picked up.  What if it were a hatchling and the person didn't want it?  Couldn't throw it back so it just ends up dead or wild anyway.  I personally would absolutely not hesitate to release or kill a dragon I grabbed off the AP that matured on me before I had a chance to decide if I wanted it and throw it back if not.  So not sure that would, itself, solve the whole "people upset that dragons they willingly gave up all control over are ending up dead or wild" thing.

Alright, so what if the unique view cap gets lowered, say to somewhere around 100-150 UVs (since I've found most stuff at 4 days left usually needs around 200-300 UVs to hatch without maximum view investment)? That way, eggs are at least part of the way hatched but are still able to be influenced or tossed back for someone else to grab, and the lock is already lifted since it got picked up, so it can continue growing until it hatches if no one's interested in keeping it.

 

3 hours ago, Moriaty said:

Still would like to suggest that the growth lock goes away when the egg reaches a certain age even without being picked up (as low as like 0d1h). if a death wall does happen and the precious & nice eggs that people want to look for is locked completely behind that wall and unable to be ever picked up, that egg is going to die and that kinda defeats the purpose stated in OP. Other than that I think a growth lock with a view upper limit lock that applies when the egg first get abandoned and wears off when first picked up again (thus ensuring that the egg *can * be picked up according to AP times) sounds like a very fleshed out combination.

Yeah, I'd say if eggs/hatchlings in the AP hit the 5-10 hr mark, the lock lifts and the egg can advance to the next stage; if my previous suggestion of a UV cap is in place, that would allow them to hatch right away since most eggs around that time don't need much to hatch while still giving time for any possible hiccups.

 

 

Edited January 4 by Myoukin
typo

[KageSora]

1 minute ago, Myoukin said:

Alright, so what if the unique view cap gets lowered, say to somewhere around 100-150 UVs (since I've found most stuff at 4 days left usually needs around 200-300 UVs to hatch without maximum view investment)? That way, eggs are at least part of the way hatched but are still able to be influenced or tossed back for someone else to grab, and the lock is already lifted since it got picked up, so it can continue growing until it hatches if no one's interested in keeping it.

 

That would be a lot more useful, I think!  It better avoids the issue of "dragon matured on pick-up and wasn't actually wanted so now it's dead/wild anyway" thing while still giving people a chance to try and save their abandoned stuff before it gets picked up.

[Myoukin]

17 minutes ago, KageSora said:

 

That would be a lot more useful, I think!  It better avoids the issue of "dragon matured on pick-up and wasn't actually wanted so now it's dead/wild anyway" thing while still giving people a chance to try and save their abandoned stuff before it gets picked up.

Now that I think about it, the UV cap itself could work as a growth lock; I'm not sure of the specific numbers, but if we could figure out what the average egg needs to hatch at roughly a day left and adjust the cap a bit lower than that (while still making it something that lifts once the egg's picked up the first time), I think that might be viable. 

[MissK.]

8 hours ago, KageSora said:

 

I would have to vote against that, because it seems to me that risks the egg/hatchling proceeding to the next stage immediately upon being picked up.  What if it were a hatchling and the person didn't want it?  Couldn't throw it back so it just ends up dead or wild anyway.  I personally would absolutely not hesitate to release or kill a dragon I grabbed off the AP that matured on me before I had a chance to decide if I wanted it and throw it back if not.  So not sure that would, itself, solve the whole "people upset that dragons they willingly gave up all control over are ending up dead or wild" thing.

 

For the record, that's no different to what we already have, is it? Removing the lock just means it can hatch/grow up, not that it will instantly. If you pick up an ER egg/hatchling right now and it has enough views, it can still do that. If it's not ER or doesn't have enough views, it won't. That would remain the same...a growth lock would only affect the behaviour while it's in the AP. 

 

Just wanted to clarify that point, but personally I'm not convinced there is really an issue here. AP eggs are literally abandoned to die in DC lore so I don't know if it would feel right to add protective measures to them.

Edited January 4 by MissK.

[KageSora]

5 minutes ago, MissK. said:

For the record, that's no different to what we already have, is it? Removing the lock just means it can hatch/grow up, not that it will instantly. If you pick up an ER egg/hatchling right now and it has enough views, it can still do that. If it's not ER or doesn't have enough views, it won't. That would remain the same...a growth lock would only affect the behaviour while it's in the AP.

 

If I'm understanding the issue correctly, right now if it has enough views to hatch or grow up while it's in the AP it can do so before it ever gets picked up?  Therefore it's reasonable to assume that the average dragon you pick up that's close to being able to grow will not do so the instant that you pick it up off the AP, and you'd have a few moments at the very least to check if you wanted it and chuck it back if not.  However, if there's a growth lock but no view lock then in theory a dragon could accumulate enough stats to grow to the next stage instantly upon being picked up.

[MissK.]

2 minutes ago, KageSora said:

 

If I'm understanding the issue correctly, right now if it has enough views to hatch or grow up while it's in the AP it can do so before it ever gets picked up?  Therefore it's reasonable to assume that the average dragon you pick up that's close to being able to grow will not do so the instant that you pick it up off the AP, and you'd have a few moments at the very least to check if you wanted it and chuck it back if not.  However, if there's a growth lock but no view lock then in theory a dragon could accumulate enough stats to grow to the next stage instantly upon being picked up.

 

There would probably be more of them with enough views, yes. I just mean that it is already possible. If a hatchling has been ERed while in the AP (which can happen right now) and you pick it up, adding one more view to it, and it is also still gaining views from the ERs, it can grow up before you toss it back. If it ends up growing up, well, releasing it leads to the same result as growing up wild I guess. For eggs it's obviously less of a problem to begin with since you can still toss back the hatchling. 

[Fuzzbucket]

2 hours ago, MissK. said:

 

There would probably be more of them with enough views, yes. I just mean that it is already possible. If a hatchling has been ERed while in the AP (which can happen right now) and you pick it up, adding one more view to it, and it is also still gaining views from the ERs, it can grow up before you toss it back. If it ends up growing up, well, releasing it leads to the same result as growing up wild I guess. For eggs it's obviously less of a problem to begin with since you can still toss back the hatchling. 

 

Exactly. Had it happen in the past !

[Moriaty]

Having hatchling grow immediately when it reaches your scroll is certainly possible right now: when I toss my revived hatchlings at 2d left (with a LOT of views) to AP because I don't intend to keep the lineage, they usually grow up immediately when they land on the scroll of whoever picked them up. I know because I tossed them back, go to their page in habit before closing the tab forever, and bam they're 80% of the time already grown.

 

Also note that something with enough view to grown on your own scroll (ie, dragons page instead of user/your user name) also triggers the growth, but that doesn't add a view so I'm not sure what's going on here 

[KageSora]

13 hours ago, MissK. said:

There would probably be more of them with enough views, yes. I just mean that it is already possible. If a hatchling has been ERed while in the AP (which can happen right now) and you pick it up, adding one more view to it, and it is also still gaining views from the ERs, it can grow up before you toss it back. If it ends up growing up, well, releasing it leads to the same result as growing up wild I guess. For eggs it's obviously less of a problem to begin with since you can still toss back the hatchling. 

 

Yes it's possible now, but it doesn't really happen tons.  A suggestion like this would see an increase in that sort of thing, though, which is something I dislike because it annoys me very much.

[Platykwak]

9 hours ago, KageSora said:

Yes it's possible now, but it doesn't really happen tons.  A suggestion like this would see an increase in that sort of thing, though, which is something I dislike because it annoys me very much.

 

Can't this annoyance be avoided by avoiding picking up mature hatchlings? (Or is it possible for baby hatchlings to skip the mature stage straight into adults with just a few views?) 

 

I would see these as improvements: more opportunities for people to adopt hatchies that would otherwise just grow up wild on their own. Whether the person wants to then release it or keep it, that's their choice, but maybe there'd be other players who'd be happy about instant adult adoptees instead of being annoyed by them.

[inghelene]

I’m still not convinced.

Though if I’m ever slightly inched to support, the idea should only apply to hatchlings, not eggs. 
Since you can’t pick up the same egg twice without another person touching it in between, it would still relatively nerf an unwanted massbreed from progressing. However I can lean towards hatchlings being an exception, since they are more likely to be picked up.

 

Still personally voting against tho. 

[reddof-f6]

On 12/30/2023 at 2:24 PM, DogsRNice_ said:

This makes the most sense, there's no benefit to anyone other than trolls to having dragons grow up in the ap

no? i do it because hatchis get adopted faster and move up the whole line of AP eggs. so im not seeing a massive wall of pink wyverns choking it. or with holiday walls, my eggs are at the back and i don't want them dieing because 12 other hidden pages are blocking them from even being seen.

 

instead of locking views and what not, just dont let newly hatch get autoed to wilderness. if they survive the AP long enough to reach adulthood, then clearly nobody wanted it. then its booted to wilderness.

[MissK.]

8 hours ago, reddof-f6 said:

no? i do it because hatchis get adopted faster and move up the whole line of AP eggs. so im not seeing a massive wall of pink wyverns choking it. or with holiday walls, my eggs are at the back and i don't want them dieing because 12 other hidden pages are blocking them from even being seen.

 

instead of locking views and what not, just dont let newly hatch get autoed to wilderness. if they survive the AP long enough to reach adulthood, then clearly nobody wanted it. then its booted to wilderness.

 

Nothing gets auto's to the wild though? People are talking about things growing up wild because the holiday walls are so long that some things never get to appear in the AP before growing up. When spriter's alts are bred for instance, some people decide to give them views to hatch them on purpose. So if they hatch at 4 days while the AP is lower time, they never appear there as eggs. Then the hatchlings also get booted all the way to the end of the line since they have 7 days, and by the time they could show up they might have already grown up wild. 

[Moriaty]

In regard to the quote ("there's no benefit to anyone other than trolls to having dragons grow up in the ap") though, I'd like to point out that there are people who prefer dragon growing up in the ap than dying. I'm not convinced the death wall is a one off thing that will never happen again in holiday seasons.

[meeps114]

Tbh I'd be fine if specifically just TJ's dragons had this feature -- let his 2gs make it through