Protection for eggs/hatchlings gaining views behind the AP wall.

[KageSora]

58 minutes ago, D-wing said:

As someone who was picky about lineage, I really not interested in Thuwed. So just a little bit supplement about that. Under the current mechanism, seem like they need a view to trigger them grow up. We know that saw them in ap, dragcave.net/dragons, lineage page and action page won't give them a view, so I guess we still have chance to know the lineage and then throw them back to ap without let them grow? But of course it's troublesome and not everyone knows or no one know if growth lock chance some mechanism, I just think that it won't be a fatal flaw if it has a method to solve(?)

 

In theory that would work, but if somebody decided to "help" the dragon (or if the original owner just plain forgot to remove it from hatchsites/where they posted it) then there's the risk that some other user will give it that "view" before whoever picked it up would normally give it that final view--if you were looking at the lineage page and in that time the egg showed on a hatchsite and somebody gave it a view by the time you navigate to "actions" then it's too late.

 

Probably not a big deal for the average egg because, like I said, I don't think this is even a huge issue outside of things like the 2g Thuweds--but if people are deliberately shoving those in hatchsites or click exchanges or higher-traffic forums and such to generate those view then they'd be at even further risk of being given that final view while whoever caught it was checking the lineage to see if they wanted to keep it or not.

 

One could then argue that's just the risk the growth-lock solution incurs, but "risk of an issue that's actually higher for things like the 2g Thuweds" seems at-odds with the continual focus on trying to mitigate existing issues they run into, to me.

 

I suppose one way around it would be that the growth-lock would remain in place for a set period of time after being picked up, say maybe 5-10 minutes or so which would likely be enough time for most players to check the lineage and decide if they want to toss it back or not before it grows up.  But, then if as others have suggested the growth-lock wears off after the first time the dragon is picked up...  If it gets tossed back that means whoever picks it up second faces the same issue of "oops now it grew up before they could see if they wanted it or not".  It would have to be something like "any time an egg or hatchling is in the AP it has a growth-lock which remains for a short time after being picked up and which is renewed if the dragon is abandoned again".  It'd also have to be coupled with some kind of limit to prevent issues like "well, somebody picked up a dragon that had minutes left to live and it died because the growth-lock prevented it from advancing to the next stage", which I know some folks suggested.

 

But that's starting to seem a little more complex for what seems to be, at it's core, "some users are unhappy that they aren't getting a chance at specific lineage dragons they've deemed super special compared to all other eggs so they want something in place to give them a better chance to try for those select dragons".  And, again, I dislike the idea of certain lineages being given in-game special treatment over others and since I don't think this is an issue that's likely to crop up constantly outside of those handful of specific lineages this seems like it's mostly targeted at those small handful of specific "desirable" dragons.

[Platykwak]

3 hours ago, KageSora said:

Honestly, this entire thread should probably move away from Thuweds as a focus because it would have to be applicable across the board (I am dead against special treatment for any given lineage)

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There's also the fact that this wouldn't just be for 2g Thuweds and would apply to any other hatchlings--including those from "messy" or "less desierable" lines which not all users want on their scroll. 

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If somebody were to argue "but this wouldn't really be that much of a big deal outside those special dragons because how often would it really happen to a random dragon with a messy lineage or something?" then that would basically be saying the entire suggestion is based in the idea that certain eggs are deserving of special protections or treatments because they're inherently more special than other dragons.  Outside of a tiny number of 1g dragons, I disagree that this is true.

 

Sure thing then. Because yes - all progeny ought to be treated equal in terms of gameplay, especially in AP. And no, that does not change my mind at all. 

While the main motivator for this entire thread, and the main motivator of my support, is the rare shiny things and their current unfortunate circumstances... It all applies to everything else too. Could be normal stuff, CB drops, 2g treasures, my own eggs, whatever, and yes, messies too. 

 

3 hours ago, KageSora said:

Growth-locking runs into the risk of "dragon grows up on scroll upon pickup before user even has a chance to decide if they want it or not, forcing them to kill or release it if they don't which means that dragon is no better off than if it grew up wild".

 

Personally, 2g Thuwed or no, if I didn't want the dragon's lineage I would absolutely kill or release it if it grew up on me without a chance to decide if I wanted it or not.  I've done it before when I've had people add my things to "help" me, I have no qualms about destroying or releasing a dragon just because it's a low-gen of a lineage some players prize.

 

If you think the risks or downsides associated with the various ideas discussed earlier in the thread are acceptable including when applied to non-special eggs and still makes it worthwhile, we simply have to agree to disagree.

^^^^ I take it that this really is the main downside to growth locks for you. I remember you writing about it before. I replied to it. 

 

The options for these kinds of high-view dragons would be: 

1) Dragon reaches the AP. It gets picked up. Then something something. 

2) Dragon never reaches the AP. It grows up wild, without ever getting picked up by anyone.

 

You think that because in some circumstances you might have to release some dragons you don't like, it's better that they will always just do so automatically with nobody else being given the same chance to be bamboozled surprised, either positively or negatively? Because I'd always pick option 1.

 

Quote

no better off than if they grew up wild

I fundamentally disagree with this. 

 

They are part of an adoptables game. They should get a chance to be adopted by players. Not thrown straight into a database. 

 

Did they reach the AP? Did thy get picked up? WOO, SUCCESS! 

I don't care what happens then. None of our business. I thought we were clear about that. 

You don't like it and oops it grew up immediately? Release it then.  Or kill if you wanna. 

At least it got out there. Some people can sometimes be annoyed, and others could be elated. I'm in support of that gamble. 

 

It does not sit right with me that a chance of some temporary inconvenience for some players would be the reason that adoption chances for some eggs are guaranteed to never happen. 

 

3 hours ago, KageSora said:

There's also the fact that not every user that gets a 2g Thuwed ever bothers to breed it

I don't care. At least they got it. 

 

3 hours ago, KageSora said:

If you want to have the discussion about forcing hatchsites to remove the ability to add single codes, you'd probably need to bring that to their individual threads.  It also won't stop a determined troll who has access to other means which have been mentioned before since hatchsites aren't the only way to get plenty of traffic to an egg.  It might discourage them, it might make them double down out of spite--I've seen trolls do both and you can't know which response will occur until you do something about their trolling.

Well yeah I did address both of these several times. 

If there are no other means to be had, then at least without single-code adds it wouldn't be made so... easy. Now it's simple clicks and it's irreversible. 

 

I can't reply fully to the next comment without risking the deletion of this draft, so I'll just keep it short and stout. Because of the points I addressed here before, it follows that I don't particularly care about the intricacies too much, I don't think there's need for special clauses or cooldown periods or stuff like that - the solution should feel simple to explain. 

[D-wing]

52 minutes ago, KageSora said:

 

In theory that would work, but if somebody decided to "help" the dragon (or if the original owner just plain forgot to remove it from hatchsites/where they posted it) then there's the risk that some other user will give it that "view" before whoever picked it up would normally give it that final view--if you were looking at the lineage page and in that time the egg showed on a hatchsite and somebody gave it a view by the time you navigate to "actions" then it's too late.

 

Probably not a big deal for the average egg because, like I said, I don't think this is even a huge issue outside of things like the 2g Thuweds--but if people are deliberately shoving those in hatchsites or click exchanges or higher-traffic forums and such to generate those view then they'd be at even further risk of being given that final view while whoever caught it was checking the lineage to see if they wanted to keep it or not.

 

One could then argue that's just the risk the growth-lock solution incurs, but "risk of an issue that's actually higher for things like the 2g Thuweds" seems at-odds with the continual focus on trying to mitigate existing issues they run into, to me.

 

I suppose one way around it would be that the growth-lock would remain in place for a set period of time after being picked up, say maybe 5-10 minutes or so which would likely be enough time for most players to check the lineage and decide if they want to toss it back or not before it grows up.  But, then if as others have suggested the growth-lock wears off after the first time the dragon is picked up...  If it gets tossed back that means whoever picks it up second faces the same issue of "oops now it grew up before they could see if they wanted it or not".  It would have to be something like "any time an egg or hatchling is in the AP it has a growth-lock which remains for a short time after being picked up and which is renewed if the dragon is abandoned again".  It'd also have to be coupled with some kind of limit to prevent issues like "well, somebody picked up a dragon that had minutes left to live and it died because the growth-lock prevented it from advancing to the next stage", which I know some folks suggested.

 

But that's starting to seem a little more complex for what seems to be, at it's core, "some users are unhappy that they aren't getting a chance at specific lineage dragons they've deemed super special compared to all other eggs so they want something in place to give them a better chance to try for those select dragons".  And, again, I dislike the idea of certain lineages being given in-game special treatment over others and since I don't think this is an issue that's likely to crop up constantly outside of those handful of specific lineages this seems like it's mostly targeted at those small handful of specific "desirable" dragons.

Hmm that's interesting, I'm not very care about the original reason in this topic because sound like it's not the only reason to support. But it Inspired another possibility. So if the problem is 2G Thuweds/Salt might getting viewboom because someone don't want anyone to get them, is the easiest and least damaging method is "Make 2G Thuweds/Salt's progeny page become private?" or make every progeny pages become private too but I don't know how many users want to show it, maybe a new choice in Account Settings. Instead of everyone no chance to get it, I would rather let it become true random. But I guess it's a new topic.

 

Back to the AP locks. I opposed to lock their view because too many cons. Also better only affect hatchlings. For the growth-lock, you're right. I think it would change some behavior if happen. A growth-lock means it encourage people to give views to the AP things because it remove the cost when error. The effect would be 1. The total number of hatchlings that people see/catch would increase. 2. s1 hatchlings decrease, s2 increase because more people will just add them into clicksites and abandon. 3. For the picky one who like us, the better catching tactics would become skip all the s2 or check their lineage before catch. The paradoxical thing is, the biggest winner would be the people who don't care about lineages. But is it suitable to chance, I guess the key point would be (1) could produce how much benefit, is it able to balance the lost of choosing lineages or is it fit the design intention about AP (?)

[Platykwak]

You know what - we can start with this. For all hatcheries that allow single codes. I kinda get it better now. 

So only single-codes could check the field, and scroll names could still be easy to use. 

As I understand now, things were sorta supposed to function like this anyway. 

 

EDIT: Although, the same acceptaid-check could also be implemented on all hatcheries and for scrolls, too. Sure, it would require players to switch the option on-again-off-again whenever they're adding stuff themselves, but viewbombing through the sites could finally be thwarted.

 

I wonder if AP shoveling would still function through scrolls with this: addition from a scroll and tossing back to AP would still keep it in a hatchery after updating status? 

 

I still like the growth lock suggestion, I'd like it to stay floating out there as an idea.

Edited February 21 by Platykwak