Protection for eggs/hatchlings gaining views behind the AP wall.

[Fuzzbucket]

I would like some hard info on deaths in the AP. I don't particularly care about this one way or another, but I do wonder if it is the problem people in this thread think.

[Platykwak]

Welp, bad news guys, it's happening again.

I have been keeping an eye on eggs that I've discovered, to see for myself. They were added to single-code hatch sites sometime yesterday and quickly hatched.

We aren't going to get any event Thuweds in circulation again if this keeps up.

[Starscream]

On 12/31/2023 at 6:07 AM, Fuzzbucket said:

As has been said in another thread - creatures dying in the AP (which VERY rarely happens) is part of the game:

You aren't wrong with your first point. It is part of the game, and pretty much states it in the blurb at the top of the abandon page. I give no support to this.

[Platykwak]

The suggestion isn't about protecting the AP eggs from dying, though - it's about means to protect them from growing up wild, without ever getting a chance to show up on the AP, before ever getting picked up by anyone.

 

I know that several people disagree with this on this thread... But I'd be okay with the view feeding being more of a challenge, precisely because the dying threat is supposed to be a part of the game: I don't really like that hatching sites can function on wild AP dragons without scroll owners. You can't even get them out.

Sure, views could still be fed by other (old-fashioned) means, but then for doing so it'd become a question of "ease of access" or something like that, somewhat of an effort barrier.

 

I also liked the ideas of AP-"flag", restricting growth to a new stage, flag being removed upon first pickup or at 1d1h.

[TJ09]

On 12/25/2023 at 7:12 PM, Myoukin said:

• Eggs/Hatchlings get a frozen status of sorts and don't gain views/unique view/clicks while they're in the AP, or at least not until it gets down to a certain time (maybe 1d 1h left?). 
• Eggs/Hatchlings are coded so they can't be added to hatcheries unless they're on a user's scroll.
• 'Accept aid from others' option in the Account Settings can be reworked; having the option checked allows eggs/hatchlings to be freely added to hatcheries whether on a scroll or in the AP while having the option unchecked locks eggs/hatchling bred to the AP from being addable until they hit someone else's scroll (the wording may be a bit funky, let me know if someone has a better way to word this).
• Eggs/Hatchlings are locked from growing to the next stage while they're in the AP, but are still able to gain views. Picking it up out of the AP (if it has enough views/unique views/clicks) will let it grow to the next stage.

 

Anything that "reveals" that an egg is abandoned is off the table. There should be no visible way to tell if/when an abandoned egg has been grabbed if the new owner doesn't want to share that information (e.g. via the "Display username on dragon info page" setting). As a side effect, this means that special behaviors being applied specifically to abandoned eggs/hatchlings is very unlikely.

 

As a related note, the second and third suggestions should be unnecessary since hatcheries should already not be allowing eggs to be added without the owner's consent/permission unless the "Accept aid" is turned on. Some of this was poorly-documented for a long time, so it's not surprising that many long-standing sites don't do it. And of course, anything involving hatcheries doesn't stop other sources of views.

[Platykwak]

1 hour ago, TJ09 said:

Anything that "reveals" that an egg is abandoned is off the table. There should be no visible way to tell if/when an abandoned egg has been grabbed if the new owner doesn't want to share that information (e.g. via the "Display username on dragon info page" setting). As a side effect, this means that special behaviors being applied specifically to abandoned eggs/hatchlings is very unlikely.

Thanks for your reply TJ!

 

So currently it is possible to track unfogged eggs and hatchies as long as we know the code, regardless if it is abandoned or on a scroll. Doesn't matter if the owner had the name or even their whole scroll hidden. I know I can still find adult dragons from hidden scrolls if I find their sole page, and I've also tested with my own scroll + incognito for my own hatchling. Only manual fogging would actually obscure the babies from people who know the link.

 

I could imagine that compared to an owned baby with a hidden owner, an abandoned one with a growth lock would distinguish itself only by having a "suspicious" amount of views at <4d while still not grown. If I understand this correctly, would it be still too much "damning evidence" of its abandoned status somehow? Although it kinda requires some more extensive knowledge about the site.

 

1 hour ago, TJ09 said:

-- hatcheries should already not be allowing eggs to be added without the owner's consent/permission unless the "Accept aid" is turned on.

 

Well, since the popular sites don't require logins or care who writes down the scroll name or dragon code, it's obviously not tracked. That's the price to pay for significantly easier access of use for non-affiliated sites.

 

If we're unable to get special code for abandoned babies on-site, I suppose the next best thing would be to BEG for the fansite owners to remove the single code function. Wouldn't solve this issue completely, but would at least remove some of the easiest view-trolling methods. I'd be in support of that...

Edited February 19 by Platykwak

[Fuzzbucket]

Even so - when we abandon sometime - and auto-abandoning is something most of us do understand - we do have to accept that we no longer have any control over the creature. Also that even if it's picked up, we have absolutely no right to demand that the new owner does what we wanted with it.

 

Sorry - still no support.

[Platykwak]

56 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Even so - when we abandon sometime - and auto-abandoning is something most of us do understand - we do have to accept that we no longer have any control over the creature. Also that even if it's picked up, we have absolutely no right to demand that the new owner does what we wanted with it.

 

Sorry - still no support.

The argument - the gist of which I agree with, mind you - still does not really address the actual topic of AP babies which never get a chance to be picked up by anyone, before they're viewbombed into wilderness. They never had any owners at any point after first abandonment. They can currently be put to hatcheries by complete randos, but they never get out without a scroll.

 

I don't care what'd happen to the abandoned if they get picked up. Would just like them to be able to show up at all... Although if something like the halloween death wall, as in a clogged AP happens, well, I don't really care either... I guess I just really dislike the growing up wild thing.

[KageSora]

36 minutes ago, Platykwak said:

The argument - the gist of which I agree with, mind you - still does not really address the actual topic of AP babies which never get a chance to be picked up by anyone, before they're viewbombed into wilderness. They never had any owners at any point after first abandonment. They can currently be put to hatcheries by complete randos, but they never get out without a scroll.

 

I don't care what'd happen to the abandoned if they get picked up. Would just like them to be able to show up at all... Although if something like the halloween death wall, as in a clogged AP happens, well, I don't really care either... I guess I just really dislike the growing up wild thing.

 

The reality is once they're off your scroll you lose any and all rights to have a say in their fate, including the possibilities of dying or growing up wild.  If either of those bothers you, then just like people who get upset at having frozen hatchlings in the progeny page or people killing or neglecting or vamping the eggs tbey breed, you simply need to not breed to the AP.

 

Also, what's the functional difference between "grew up wild" and "was released after maturing by whoever caught it"?  Because I absolutely release or even kill dragons from the AP if I forget to freeze them or if somebody tries to "help" them once they're on my scroll and interferes with my plans for them.

[Platykwak]

14 minutes ago, KageSora said:

The reality is once they're off your scroll you lose any and all rights to have a say in their fate, including the possibilities of dying or growing up wild.  If either of those bothers you, then just like people who get upset at having frozen hatchlings in the progeny page or people killing or neglecting or vamping the eggs tbey breed, you simply need to not breed to the AP.

You know... I haven't even been talking about my own eggs. I've been addressing the main suggestion this whole time for the hopeless collectors. 

 

Now, if TJ doesn't care, or anyone managing hatcheries... That'd be it then, I guess. The viewbombers shall win. And we won't see 2g event Thuweds in the AP again, until maybe they get bored within the next five years or something.

 

15 minutes ago, KageSora said:

Also, what's the functional difference between "grew up wild" and "was released after maturing by whoever caught it"?  Because I absolutely release or even kill dragons from the AP if I forget to freeze them or if somebody tries to "help" them once they're on my scroll and interferes with my plans for them.

So they reached the AP and got picked up from there at least once, yeah? Cool

[inghelene]

I understand your frustration. I just don’t see that whoever trolls by hatching thuweds won’t troll by breeding death walls if hatching walls was made harder. 😕

[Platykwak]

22 minutes ago, inghelene said:

I understand your frustration. I just don’t see that whoever trolls by hatching thuweds won’t troll by breeding death walls if hatching walls was made harder. 😕

That'd be pretty impressive tbh. A more hands-on trolling approach. And at least AP walls can be combated with community effort. 

 

Was wondering why death walls don't bother me nearly as much - but that's it: Effort. Massbreed trolling would require quite impressively large projects compared to just adding a couple stuff to hatcheries. AND, the community can try to do something about it with our own effort. 

Right now since the hatcheries don't have a "remove by code" option alongside addition, we're all helpless against it. Feels bad.

 

I've even read that some people are intrigued to see another death wall, and tried to massbreed for it this valentine. I'm personally impartial about it, but yeah some people even want it. But that's me digressing. 

[inghelene]

Yeah, though my point is that disabling views accumulating in ap will ultimately cripple the ability to hatch those walls.

[Fuzzbucket]

4 hours ago, Platykwak said:

The argument - the gist of which I agree with, mind you - still does not really address the actual topic of AP babies which never get a chance to be picked up by anyone, before they're viewbombed into wilderness. They never had any owners at any point after first abandonment. They can currently be put to hatcheries by complete randos, but they never get out without a scroll.

They were seen for long enough for someone to get the code. I imagine the played who abandoned them didn't put them in hatcheries - I am pretty sure TJ doesn't put his thuweds in befroe dropping them - so how would any troll get the code.

 

4 hours ago, Platykwak said:

 

I don't care what'd happen to the abandoned if they get picked up. Would just like them to be able to show up at all... Although if something like the halloween death wall, as in a clogged AP happens, well, I don't really care either... I guess I just really dislike the growing up wild thing.

 

There will always be ways for this to happen.

2 hours ago, inghelene said:

I understand your frustration. I just don’t see that whoever trolls by hatching thuweds won’t troll by breeding death walls if hatching walls was made harder. 😕

 

How is this even possible if they didn't make it into the AP. TJ doesn't' publish their codes and his scroll is hidden.

 

45 minutes ago, inghelene said:

Yeah, though my point is that disabling views accumulating in ap will ultimately cripple the ability to hatch those walls.

 

This too.

[D-wing]

7 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 I am pretty sure TJ doesn't put his thuweds in befroe dropping them - so how would any troll get the code.

view children?

[KageSora]

3 hours ago, Platykwak said:

Now, if TJ doesn't care, or anyone managing hatcheries... That'd be it then, I guess. The viewbombers shall win. And we won't see 2g event Thuweds in the AP again, until maybe they get bored within the next five years or something.

 

I mean, TJ could decide to stop breeding his Thuweds at any point and we'd also never see 2nd gen event Thuweds (or any) in the AP again.  It would have the same outcome.  We users aren't entitled to 2nd gens of any special dragons.

 

Are you also sure they're viewbombers and not users who were worried the eggs would die on the AP and didn't realize they were also condemning them to grow up wild from the amount of views they ended up with?  Because users shove eggs from the AP into hatchsites out of well-meaning concern all the time despite not being supposed to.  (I've learned the hard way to fog anything I get from a trade or the AP to stop the original/previous owner from being "helpful".)

 

12 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

They were seen for long enough for someone to get the code. I imagine the played who abandoned them didn't put them in hatcheries - I am pretty sure TJ doesn't put his thuweds in befroe dropping them - so how would any troll get the code.

12 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

How is this even possible if they didn't make it into the AP. TJ doesn't' publish their codes and his scroll is hidden.

 

Well, I assume that anybody who knows the codes of his Thuweds (and many of those are easy enough to find if you check the forums for past releases or if you go to the verified Thuweds page) just went to the dragon page and checked their progeny list to see.  From there just shove it into a site that allows you to enter single codes or use non-hatchsite methods, same as other vieebombers or concerned users overstepping their rights towards abandoned eggs.

 

Since the eggs would be off his scroll it doesn't matter that it's hidden, the egg/hatchling would show in progeny, right?  Especially since you can view his individual Thuweds anyway as long as you know the code or have a link and can thus see their progeny.

Edited February 19 by KageSora

[D-wing]

 

59 minutes ago, KageSora said:

Are you also sure they're viewbombers and not users who were worried the eggs would die on the AP and didn't realize they were also condemning them to grow up wild from the amount of views they ended up with?  Because users shove eggs from the AP into hatchsites out of well-meaning concern all the time despite not being supposed to.  (I've learned the hard way to fog anything I get from a trade or the AP to stop the original/previous owner from being "helpful".)

Although I feel the things happen in Thuweds are attack on purpose, but I agree that sometime it's hard to judge are people attempt to help them too. I've a trade that let my scroll got added into a click site 6 times in halloween, but I guess if their goal were kill it, it won't be adding to one click site only. (they can just add the whole scroll into every sites.(can't sure they're the same people, too.) So... : /

 

----

okay I just checking their TOD, 5D4H right? I guess we still have around 24 hour to save them (clear the egg wall). Luckly the ap wall is now on 14Feb and I don't think we have a huge NR wall, so I call out everyone who would like to get them started to clear the wall now. Don't give up too early!

 

Edit: Another lucky thing is, they don't need a lot of UV to hatch (around 100 uv) so it won't takes up too much time!

Edited February 19 by D-wing

[Platykwak]

2 hours ago, inghelene said:

Yeah, though my point is that disabling views accumulating in ap will ultimately cripple the ability to hatch those walls.

I guess that was one of the reasons there's been several different suggestions in this thread, such as the growth-lock idea instead. (Growth-locked babies would grow after pickup tout de suite and could possibly work alongside shoveling.) Otherwise we should've just taken this to hatch site discussions for requests straight up. But people like how effective shoveling can be. I personally don't support *view* lock.

But I also mentioned earlier that, I wouldn't even mind viewfeeding being more difficult. Maybe that's just me.

 

1 hour ago, KageSora said:

I mean, TJ could decide to stop breeding his Thuweds at any point and we'd also never see 2nd gen event Thuweds (or any) in the AP again.  It would have the same outcome.  We users aren't entitled to 2nd gens of any special dragons.

Might as well, at this point. The wild children are making the progeny page somewhat more boring and ugly anyway. Welp, if nobody's getting a certain type ever again then the veterans have some free 3g real estate. Good for them. Black Sweets again and all that.

.Is what my cynical behind has already thought about while writing before, but then my posts looked a tad bit too obnoxious and dramatic for even my tastes at that time. aaAaAight, since this felt unnecessarily condescending to my soft brain and ticked me off it's time to disappoint myself and write it aanyway--

Hmm.

Might as well call this entire suggestion thread *entitlement* then.

I know the joy of giving tho, pretty sure that's why AP 2gs are a thing in the first place. It's even more fun than receiving. All this is just such a shame.

 

I literally just figured out like two weeks ago how some people are monitoring and hunting AP treasures, my mind was blown, it seems so exciting and renewed some of my enthusiasm for DC honestly. Neat. 

It's just... such, a shame. Ehh I'm too regulated to even feel much more strongly about it even though I'm here lookign like I'm foaming at the keyboar---

 

Maan I was just earlier here interested to ask more info and clarification about what sorta ways the abandoned vs picked up status would be extra revealed to people... (I could only think of one example at this point...) And then it's like weird words are put in my mouth like I'm somehow demanding more control over my own abandoneds or whatever? Like where did that even come from? I never needed reminding that abandoneds are none of my business, because funnily enough I, a g r e e d?? Am I seriously that bad of a writer??

Now this is what actually induces a response in my nervous system, huh. I just couldn't let this go.

 

1 hour ago, KageSora said:

Are you also sure they're viewbombers and not users who were worried the eggs would die on the AP and didn't realize they were also condemning them to grow up wild from the amount of views they ended up with?  Because users shove eggs from the AP into hatchsites out of well-meaning concern all the time despite not being supposed to.  (I've learned the hard way to fog anything I get from a trade or the AP to stop the original/previous owner from being "helpful".)

I often like to give people the benefit of the doubt. And I know those things happen too. But considering how it's repeating, and just how deliberate one must be to look for every single Thuwed progeny (which isn't like tutorial level knowledge) and write them into hatcheries one by one, always right before they'd appear in the AP...? 🤔

[KageSora]

24 minutes ago, Platykwak said:

Might as well, at this point. The wild children are making the progeny page somewhat more boring and ugly anyway. 

 

That's your opinion though and not fact, I personally don't have any issues seeing wild children on the progeny page or clicking through and seeing it on their individual pages.  Doesn't make it look more boring or ugly at all.

 

Besides, at a glance, how do you tell the difference between a wild dragon and an unnamed owned one?  Because there are multiple Thuweds--both holiday and not--that aren't wild but are unnamed and those appear identically to the wild ones in the progeny page as far as I can tell.  How do you tell the difference besides manually clicking through each and every one to see if it's wild or not?  And if you have to click through to tell, how does that make looking at the progeny page itself boring?

[Fuzzbucket]

2 hours ago, KageSora said:

Besides, at a glance, how do you tell the difference between a wild dragon and an unnamed owned one? 

 

They say "wild dragon" on the page.

 

https://dragcave.net/view/Q9eu2

[KageSora]

2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

They say "wild dragon" on the page.

 

https://dragcave.net/view/Q9eu2

 

But that's not on the progeny page, which is what the user I quoted was complaining about looking more "boring"  and "ugly".

 

Unless you're manually clicking into every single /view page you cannot tell at a glance, as far as I can see, if a dragon is wild or merely unnamed.  The /progeny page doesn't seem to have any kind of visual marker to distinguish between the two, much less a visual marker that would drastically change the look of the page if a bunch of the progeny were wild vs unnamed.

[Platykwak]

Honestly... it was the most irrelevant drivel in my comment that you could possibly focus on. Let it go, ignore it.

 

What were we talking about again?

So we've established that codes behind the AP wall is indeed accessible information if you know what you're doing, nothing stops people from making them grow into wilderness if the wall is large enough (in event cases, almost always), and there's nothing we can do about it if even just one person decides it's a stellar idea.

 

A flawed system, and the purpose of this thread was suggesting different approaches to combat this.

But like I wrote before... if on-site we can't have it, then the only thing we could do is take the discussion elsewhere: to ask hatcheries to remove additions without scrolls.

 

I personally was still interested in what's considered too revealing information that an egg/hatchi is either abandoned/owned. Or if anything counts. But anyway.

Edited February 20 by Platykwak

[KageSora]

I didn't think I needed to bother addressing things like the part of your post that brought up suggestions that had already been discussed some previously in the topic (which you yourself mentioned), like the pitfalls of growth-locking.  But if you need to re-hash the same thing on a new page to feel that it isn't "drivel" to focus on:

 

Growth-locking runs into the risk of "dragon grows up on scroll upon pickup before user even has a chance to decide if they want it or not, forcing them to kill or release it if they don't which means that dragon is no better off than if it grew up wild".

 

Some might be tempted to argue "but who WOULDN'T want a 2nd gen Thuwed?!" but not everybody cares about collecting famous lineages and many care explicitly about the pairing (and its not like they can then simply trade the shiny precious special lineage dragon for a pairing they like more if it's an adult immediately).  There's also the fact that this wouldn't just be for 2g Thuweds and would apply to any other hatchlings--including those from "messy" or "less desierable" lines which not all users want on their scroll.  Again, I've seen users try and be "helpful" (and other times people just plain forget to take stuff out of hatchsites) and shove dragons they don't own that have accepting aid disabled into hatchsites.

 

Personally, 2g Thuwed or no, if I didn't want the dragon's lineage I would absolutely kill or release it if it grew up on me without a chance to decide if I wanted it or not.  I've done it before when I've had people add my things to "help" me, I have no qualms about destroying or releasing a dragon just because it's a low-gen of a lineage some players prize.  And I know I'm not the only one, so dragons that end up on scrolls of users who feel that way are no better off than if they grew up wild.

 

There's also the fact that not every user that gets a 2g Thuwed ever bothers to breed it, so again it's not like that's any different than growing up wild in terms of sharing the bounty of 3g Thuweds.

 

If you want to have the discussion about forcing hatchsites to remove the ability to add single codes, you'd probably need to bring that to their individual threads.  It also won't stop a determined troll who has access to other means which have been mentioned before since hatchsites aren't the only way to get plenty of traffic to an egg.  It might discourage them, it might make them double down out of spite--I've seen trolls do both and you can't know which response will occur until you do something about their trolling.

 

Honestly, this entire thread should probably move away from Thuweds as a focus because it would have to be applicable across the board (I am dead against special treatment for any given lineage), and the continual focus on "but 2g Thuweds!" ignores the fact that this would be universal and we would have to live with the changes even if TJ decided one day he was never going to breed his dragons ever again (or if he had an event where he simply didn't have a chance because of real-life obligations taking away from his time with the game--I'm sure we've all had that happen to us at least once).

 

If you think the risks or downsides associated with the various ideas discussed earlier in the thread are acceptable including when applied to non-special eggs and still makes it worthwhile, we simply have to agree to disagree.

 

If somebody were to argue "but this wouldn't really be that much of a big deal outside those special dragons because how often would it really happen to a random dragon with a messy lineage or something?" then that would basically be saying the entire suggestion is based in the idea that certain eggs are deserving of special protections or treatments because they're inherently more special than other dragons.  Outside of a tiny number of 1g dragons, I disagree that this is true.

[Fuzzbucket]

8 hours ago, KageSora said:

 

But that's not on the progeny page, which is what the user I quoted was complaining about looking more "boring"  and "ugly".

 

Unless you're manually clicking into every single /view page you cannot tell at a glance, as far as I can see, if a dragon is wild or merely unnamed.  The /progeny page doesn't seem to have any kind of visual marker to distinguish between the two, much less a visual marker that would drastically change the look of the page if a bunch of the progeny were wild vs unnamed.

 

True; sorry; I understood you to mean there was no way to tell at all.

 

27 minutes ago, KageSora said:

If you want to have the discussion about forcing hatchsites to remove the ability to add single codes, you'd probably need to bring that to their individual threads.  It also won't stop a determined troll who has access to other means which have been mentioned before since hatchsites aren't the only way to get plenty of traffic to an egg.  It might discourage them, it might make them double down out of spite--I've seen trolls do both and you can't know which response will occur until you do something about their trolling.

 

This is the killer for all of this. There are so many ways to bomb an egg that don't involve hatcheries, so even forcing them all to bar single codes, it can still be done.

 

27 minutes ago, KageSora said:

Honestly, this entire thread should probably move away from Thuweds as a focus because it would have to be applicable across the board (I am dead against special treatment for any given lineage), and the continual focus on "but 2g Thuweds!" ignores the fact that this would be universal and we would have to live with the changes even if TJ decided one day he was never going to breed his dragons ever again (or if he had an event where he simply didn't have a chance because of real-life obligations taking away from his time with the game--I'm sure we've all had that happen to us at least once).

 

This is so true. If I were TJ I'd stop breeding Thuweds around events anyway.... That would annoy EVERYONE, even including those who are determined to viewbomb them for some weird reason.

 

27 minutes ago, KageSora said:

 

If you think the risks or downsides associated with the various ideas discussed earlier in the thread are acceptable including when applied to non-special eggs and still makes it worthwhile, we simply have to agree to disagree.

 

If somebody were to argue "but this wouldn't really be that much of a big deal outside those special dragons because how often would it really happen to a random dragon with a messy lineage or something?" then that would basically be saying the entire suggestion is based in the idea that certain eggs are deserving of special protections or treatments because they're inherently more special than other dragons.  Outside of a tiny number of 1g dragons, I disagree that this is true.

 

Yes. "All eggs is created equal the end." We don't all feel that way, but at that point we start to differ. A lineage I like will be ugly to someone else; there are DRAGONS I dislike; there are things people have asked me to breed that have made me wonder about the other player';s sanity. Thuweds are no more special to me than many other eggs. And no individual egg deserves to be bombed - not to mention some people do "help".

[D-wing]

43 minutes ago, KageSora said:

Growth-locking runs into the risk of "dragon grows up on scroll upon pickup before user even has a chance to decide if they want it or not, forcing them to kill or release it if they don't which means that dragon is no better off than if it grew up wild".

As someone who was picky about lineage, I really not interested in Thuwed. So just a little bit supplement about that. Under the current mechanism, seem like they need a view to trigger them grow up. We know that saw them in ap, dragcave.net/dragons, lineage page and action page won't give them a view, so I guess we still have chance to know the lineage and then throw them back to ap without let them grow? But of course it's troublesome and not everyone knows or no one know if growth lock chance some mechanism, I just think that it won't be a fatal flaw if it has a method to solve(?)

Edited February 20 by D-wing