Why aren't DC dragons reptilian?

[Malurosa]

Dragons have been depicted in many forms, but the main unifying feature is their reptilian appearance. So, why do so few dragons on DC look reptilian?

 

To explain, every dragon I have seen is either ambiguous or unambiguously mammalian in almost all parts of its body; the only exceptions I have seen are the pseudo-wyvern's arms and serpentine dragons. Even winged dragons, where you'd assume it'd be easier to draw the legs like reptiles, are fully mammalian across most of the sprites

 

While obviously a few mammalian dragons would be expected in something like DC, it's ridiculous that every sprite would look so mammalian

 

So, why is it like this? Is there some lore reason, or is it just that none of the spriters can draw reptiles?

[reddof-f6]

the dragons are designed by various artists over the years, its just what those people liked while designing their dragon.

[Shokomon]

I meant is you look at recent culture, many more of the current dragons tend to have mammalian or bird body structures with lizardy heads and scales. 

 

I don't actually seem many dragons that straight up look like a lizard.  Dragons tend to be more a mishmash of features like many myths. 

 

We do have a couple that are overtly reptilian in DC, but like you said, it's not the norm,

 

That said, you can help by making requests for them in the DR, or working with an artist(s) for private submissions. 

[Malurosa]

12 minutes ago, Shokomon said:

We do have a couple that are overtly reptilian in DC, but like you said, it's not the norm

Which dragons are reptilian? Are you refering to the serpentine dragons?

[Shokomon]

32 minutes ago, Malurosa said:

Which dragons are reptilian? Are you refering to the serpentine dragons?

Thanks for asking this. I was just compiling a list to add to my old post, but you gave me a reason to make a new one. Please review the spoiler below.

 

How dare you mention reptile dragons and not mention the crocodilian Mutamores! Lol



I don't care what anyone says. Temple Wyrms are straight up snakes. I don't wanna see anyone in the DR complain of snake like dragons again, lol. 



From what I remember, the Hydrophidus are based on sea snakes. At least, I always thought they were.



Laculas represent the Slytherin Snake, so...

 

Baikalas always reminded me of the massive prehistoric marine reptile, the Ichthyosaurs. So it counts.



Diamondwings look like dinosaurs. Dinosaurs are reptiles.

 

Sawtooths are also crocodallian, based off the Gavialidae family of crocs this time.



Sinomorphs look more like a Megazord than a dinosaur. I don't know if they count...



Red Zyumorphs like a T. Rex. T. Rex is a dinosaur. Dinosaurs are reptiles.



Mints are literally called giant lizards. 

 

Lastly, I would also argue for almost all of the wyverns, because they are either birds (which technically fall under reptiles because they came from the dinosaurs) or Pterosaurs, which the Alcedines shown here are based on. The only ones that wouldn't count are the Aether wyverns whose body structure is based on vampire bats (which I only know because I was there when they were being designed.)



Same thing applies to pseudo-wyverns, since their body structure is based on ostriches.
 

And yes, I know you probably didn't mean birds, when you said "reptiles," but birds are reptiles because dinosaurs. 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Shokomon
wording edit

[HeatherMarie]

DC dragons are DC dragons. Breeds of dragons on a made-up world whose appearance and lore has been crafted by pretty awesome artists/creators over the years. They don't *have* to look overly reptilian, though I'd say most of them do have some reptilian features.  If you'd like to get a better idea of what features are often considered reptilian, take a look through the Dragon Request threads and you'll see spriters working on that very thing.

 

(You seem to really dislike DC's morphology/bodies/categories, but it is what it is and I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by continuing to make topics about all the things you personally don't like about things that have been a part of DC for well over a decade.)

[Malurosa]

16 minutes ago, Shokomon said:

Thanks for asking this. I was just compiling a list to add to my old post, but you gave me a reason to make a new one. Please review the spoiler below.

  Hide contents

How dare you mention reptile dragons and not mention the crocodilian Mutamores! Lol



I don't care what anyone says. Temple Wyrms are straight up snakes. I don't wanna see anyone in the DR complain of snake like dragons again, lol. 



From what I remember, the Hydrophidus are based on sea snakes. At least, I always thought they were.



Laculas represent the Slytherin Snake, so...

 

Baikalas always reminded me of the massive prehistoric marine reptile, the Ichthyosaurs. So it counts.



Diamondwings look like dinosaurs. Dinosaurs are reptiles.

 

Sawtooths are also crocodallian, based off the Gavialidae family of crocs this time.



Sinomorphs look more like a Megazord than a dinosaur. I don't know if they count...



Red Zyumorphs like a T. Rex. T. Rex is a dinosaur. Dinosaurs are reptiles.



Mints are literally called giant lizards. 

 

Lastly, I would also argue for almost all of the wyverns, because they are either birds (which technically fall under reptiles because they came from the dinosaurs) or Pterosaurs, which the Alcedines shown here are based on. The only ones that wouldn't count are the Aether wyverns whose body structure is based on vampire bats (which I only know because I was there when they were being designed.)



Same thing applies to pseudo-wyverns, since their body structure is based on ostriches.
 

And yes, I know you probably didn't mean birds, when you said "reptiles," but birds are reptiles because dinosaurs. 

Not many of those dragons are all that reptilian. Firstly, comparing to birds doesn't make much sense, as their anatomy is quite far from what people think of when they think of reptilian traits. On the specific dragons:

 

  Hide contents

   

I guess these are pretty reptilian

   

Apart from the serpentine body shape, these dragons don't seem all that reptilian

 

Prehistoric marine reptiles, though still reptiles, aren't that reptilian in my opinion. It's similar to how the average person wouldn't say sponges are animalistic

Diamondwings don't really look like dinosaurs to me. The forelegs especially are very mammalian, almost looking humanoid

 

The heads are crocodilian, but the shoulders and hindlegs are clearly mammalian



Sinomorphs are humanoid mammalians. I'm not sure what more I can say



The form is sort of dinosaurian, but it still looks more mammalian in the shoulders



They're still a little mammalian looking. I'd say they look more like rats in their torso

 

Birds and pterosaurs aren't really all that reptilian in my opinion



These are about as reptilian as you could ask for

[Shakura Kazuki]

By the looks of it, most dragons on DC pretty much follow the "standard" western Dragon body plan which is quite consistent between a LOT of art and franchises, a body plan our whole society has mutually agreed on. 

 

Dragons have always been fantasy creatures. Even in old folklore many looked more like scaled dogs or cats with horns, bat/fan wings and snake tails than anything lizard like.

[Moriaty]

I'm kind of confused on what you're trying to achieve with all those posts you made. Who, my dear, said a creature can't be considered a dragon if it's not reptilian?

[Shadowdrake]

What, exactly, is your standard for being reptilian? How is a sea snake not reptilian? Most of these dragons are digitigrade while many real-world reptiles are plantigrade, so of course their structure is different.

[Shokomon]

19 minutes ago, Malurosa said:

Not many of those dragons are all that reptilian. Firstly, comparing to birds doesn't make much sense, as their anatomy is quite far from what people think of when they think of reptilian traits. On the specific dragons:

 

  Hide contents

   

I guess these are pretty reptilian

   

Apart from the serpentine body shape, these dragons don't seem all that reptilian

 

Prehistoric marine reptiles, though still reptiles, aren't that reptilian in my opinion. It's similar to how the average person wouldn't say sponges are animalistic

Diamondwings don't really look like dinosaurs to me. The forelegs especially are very mammalian, almost looking humanoid

 

The heads are crocodilian, but the shoulders and hindlegs are clearly mammalian



Sinomorphs are humanoid mammalians. I'm not sure what more I can say



The form is sort of dinosaurian, but it still looks more mammalian in the shoulders



They're still a little mammalian looking. I'd say they look more like rats in their torso

 

Birds and pterosaurs aren't really all that reptilian in my opinion



These are about as reptilian as you could ask for

You are going to have to define what you mean by reptilian then if you aren't going by the scientific definition. 

 

Because the one thing you said was very reptilian (Pseudo-Wyverns) is the exactly the opposite if you don't consider birds reptiles. The adult body structure is based on ostriches with coloration and social structure based on Harris hawks. The hatchlings' body structure transitions from hadrosaur to velociraptor to ostrich (with tiny forearms).  They are however scaled with leathery wings. I know this because I designed this concept and guided the art direction.

 

I will concede on the Sinomorph because like I said, it was more of Megazord (with all the humanoid influences) than a dinosaur.

 

Diamondwings and Red Zyumorphs, I would disagree, because the hatchlings show the structure as Dinosaur like, and the shoulder mimic the previous featherless depictions of the velociraptor. The artist post for the Diamondwing dragons also helps.

 

Science says birds, pterosaurs, and ichthyosaurs are reptiles. Can't really say anything else. You can think what you wanna think. That' s why I'm asking for definition. As for your sponges comment, people used to think dolphins and whales were fish, when that's definitely not true. If there is a sea serpent based on an Orca, I'm not going to call it fish-like dragon. I'm going to call it a whale or dolphin-like dragon.  (Orcas are in dolphin family.)

 

With Mints, the sprite is old enough that the anatomy can be questioned. We only have that they are called "large lizards."  Too me though, it kinds looks like this gecko, though you can't see the other leg with the head in the way. Though, I could see why you think it looks like a rat if I compare it to this naked mole rat pic I found. 

So yeah, debatable anatomy.

 

I'm not entiely sure what makes you exlude the Hydrophidus and Lacula.  They literal flying snakes. Chop off the wings and horns/frills, and they are snakes. And I didn't include the rest of the wyrms, because they are all snakes with extra bits and slightly more draconic muzzles to sell the dragon aspect. Temples are just so obliviously snake that I included them.

 

Outside of Dragon, Cave though, google "Dragons" and see how many you can find that are actually fully reptilians and not just parts, including splitting them by Eastern and Western style dragons. I mean, even look at the wiki. The example they put for an historic depiction of a dragon is literally a mishmash of animals (including a mammalian body base) that breaths fire. Even the Eastern dragons have bird or mammal structured limbs with their snake like bodies, and tend to heads more akin to lions than lizards.

 

Anyway, that doesn't change the point that if you want more reptiles in Dragon Cave, you can help make more. Many of the overtly reptilian dragons are the newer additions, so the artists are trying.

 

I do agree that there is definitely way more serpentine-bodied, mammalian-bodied or bird/bat-bodied dragons than lizard/crocodilian/newt/geko/turtle-bodied dragons, but that kinda reflects current fiction. 

 

Okay now, I'm going to stop this rant, because I need to work. 

[HeatherMarie]

2 hours ago, Shakura Kazuki said:

 

Dragons have always been fantasy creatures. Even in old folklore many looked more like scaled dogs or cats with horns, bat/fan wings and snake tails than anything lizard like.

 

This is a very good point. It's really just an *opinion* that "dragons should look reptilian", and DC-dragons not looking 'reptilian' enough doesn't really matter. Plenty of creatures in plenty of cultures throughout history have been called 'dragons' without looking like reptiles in any way. Just because something doesn't look 'reptilian' doesn't mean it doesn't look 'dragon'. 

2 hours ago, Malurosa said:

Not many of those dragons are all that reptilian. Firstly, comparing to birds doesn't make much sense, as their anatomy is quite far from what people think of when they think of reptilian traits. On the specific dragons:

 

  Hide contents

Prehistoric marine reptiles, though still reptiles, aren't that reptilian in my opinion. It's similar to how the average person wouldn't say sponges are animalistic

The heads are crocodilian, but the shoulders and hindlegs are clearly mammalian

Birds and pterosaurs aren't really all that reptilian in my opinion

 

 

This seems like a very 'my personal preference' thing. If you are going to argue against prehistoric marine *reptiles*, and say that birds 'aren't really that reptilian' even though they *are* reptiles, while also insisting DC-dragons should be reptilian, what exactly *is* good enough for you? It really seems like you are just arguing for the sake of it at this point.

[Moonlightelf]

1 hour ago, Shadowdrake said:

What, exactly, is your standard for being reptilian? How is a sea snake not reptilian?

I am also very curious about this. We'll see how that one goes and if we see development towards suggestion to change.

 

(Also based on other thread, OP must be having a very delightful field day with Iridichi being very pretty. 🥰 )

[Infinis]

I think they might mean more like lizards with legs oriented horizontally rather than underneath the body?

 

The wide/tall tail of most dragons here is a solidly reptilian trait, tho, so they’re definitely not 100% mammalian. Mammals tend to have thin tails, while reptiles have tails that kind of ‘flow’ out of the body and are the same height/width as the body at the base. 

[Chaos Rider]

The dragons here are for the most part scaly (like reptiles) rather than furry (like mammals). That being said Pillow Dragons have fur, and Eastern Dragons have manes, but those manes are characteristic of the Chinese dragons that they're inspired by

Edited November 5, 2021 by Chaos Rider

[Malurosa]

1 hour ago, Shokomon said:

You are going to have to define what you mean by reptilian then if you aren't going by the scientific definition. 

I'm using 'reptilian' to refer to being like lizards, crocodiles, and other such unambiguously reptilian reptiles

 

1 hour ago, Shokomon said:

Because the one thing you said was very reptilian (Pseudo-Wyverns) is the exactly the opposite if you don't consider birds reptiles. The adult body structure is based on ostriches with coloration and social structure based on Harris hawks. The hatchlings' body structure transitions from hadrosaur to velociraptor to ostrich (with tiny forearms).  They are however scaled with leathery wings. I know this because I designed this concept and guided the art direction.

They are very dinosaurian, but the forelimbs, at least to me, look uniquely reptilian in their positioning on the body. But if they aren't supposed to be reptilian, then so be it

 

1 hour ago, Shokomon said:

Diamondwings and Red Zyumorphs, I would disagree, because the hatchlings show the structure as Dinosaur like, and the shoulder mimic the previous featherless depictions of the velociraptor. The artist post for the Diamondwing dragons also helps.

Velociraptors (and other dromaeosaurids) are not reptilian in any way besides technically being included in Reptilia. And if you want to go by the previous reconstructions, then you may as well say they're reptilian because they're dragons

 

 

 

1 hour ago, HeatherMarie said:

This seems like a very 'my personal preference' thing. If you are going to argue against prehistoric marine *reptiles*, and say that birds 'aren't really that reptilian' even though they *are* reptiles, while also insisting DC-dragons should be reptilian, what exactly *is* good enough for you? It really seems like you are just arguing for the sake of it at this point.

If you saw a bird or prehistoric marine reptile without knowing about evolutionary taxonomy, would you consider either of them to be reptiles? Most likely not, which means appealing to their reptilian ancestry isn't much relevant to a discussion around dragons' anatomy

Edited November 5, 2021 by Malurosa

[dragongrrl]

Having owned and adored bearded dragons, turtles and worked with various agamas, skinks, alligator lizards, garter snakes and western fence lizards, as well as wishing for a frilled lizard of my own, going to herp shows, reading herp books, searching out obscure herpetology info, I have seen a wide variety of reptile types in real life, in books and online, there are many reptile influences in most of our dragons. Fur and feathers? meh. This is a fantasy site!

[Odeen]

I'm not certain what exists to be discussed here. If you are interested in achieving more diverse body styles among dragons, your best bet would be to submit a dragon request with a dragon of the morphology you would like to see. If you are arguing against the species descriptions including the term 'reptilian' when many dragons display traits that are not unique to reptiles - or unique to non-reptiles - then it doesn't seem like you're making a good-faith argument if you are still willing to exclude dragons based on extinct/extant reptiles because they don't appear reptilian enough according to your personal aesthetic yardstick.

At the end of the day, dragons don't actually exist, and DC takes place on a fictitious planet with completely alien ecology. Its fauna not looking like Terran reptiles is...kind of the primary feature of the site. /shrug

[Kaini]

I am closing this, yet again, because it seems less a discussion of DC lore and more a reason to be argumentative and in this case, rude to artists. 

 

Dragons are fantasy. They do not exist and do not have to conform to any standard, much less one individual's personal standards. 

 

If you have any questions feel free to DM me.