Allow more diversity and freedom in Drake morphology

[Falorni]

BEFORE YOU COMMENT PLEASE NOTE:

 

1. Yes, I'm aware these guidelines have been loosened slightly from the original ones

2. I am not advocating for removing the breeding group for drakes entirely at all

 

DC defines drakes with the following description:

 

- Have four limbs/legs with bat-like wings.

- Have antlers.

- Are smaller than the average dragon.

- Have a similar intelligence level to dogs.

- Only have an innate/natural level of magic.

- Lack a thumb.

 

Most of these I'm fine and dandy with, but as someone who has been dabbling in spritework and who has some work in the backburner the fact that drakes are "locked" into the standard western/wingless western body type honestly makes me not want to work with them - I have so many drake ideas but them essentially having to be western thwarts all of them!

 

I say this in the nicest way with no disrespect to Dovealove, but the current guidelines feel very arbitrary and aren't really based on any pre-existing dragon morphology the way, say, easterns or wyverns are.  Additionally, many have complained that drakes don't have much going for them the way other special breeding groups (pygmies and two-headeds) do - allowing for more diversity (eastern style drakes!  drake lindwyrms!) could help bring more interest to them without changing too much what makes them, well, drakes!

 

Apologies for any typos in advance - my keyboard has been acting up hardcore and some keys straight up do not function properly ;;  Do not hesitate to ask for clarification if anything in this post is worded in an unclear manner, English isn't my first language and some of the stuff might be a bit confusing aha

[Murkydepths]

15 minutes ago, Falorni said:

2. I am not advocating for removing the breeding group for drakes entirely at all

 

 

I am.

 

I'm not against loosened guidelines for drakes, but with that they lose even more of their (arbitrary) 'uniqueness', and have even less of a reason to be a separate breeding group. Loosening guidelines seems like putting a band-aid on a missing limb to me, but at least it is something. To me the main things that define a drake are: antlers + animal level intelligence. Especially the 2nd one, being wholly unique to drakes - and which while invisible to the art side of the game, can have some big impacts on lore. I often wish we could get more info about how Sornieth works with drakes and such so that we could capitalize on it, can they be pets? 

 

So general support of this. 

[Moonlightelf]

Well... given what the previous guidelines were like before (just to take bit of reference from wiki for those who don't know), the current ones feel more lax in regard of rules.

Spoiler

Drake: Drakes (draks, as some users have proposed they be called) are a species created by Dovealove. They have a certain set of characteristics and can only breed with other drakes.

Drakes always:

1. Possess no opposable digits on any limb (no thumbs)
2. Have antlers which are shed bi-annually
3. Are extremely good natured, obedient and eager to please
4. Are no smarter than your average dog, have short attention spans, and tend to never forget training, despite the fact that it takes a long time to cement it in their minds.
5. Are small, ranging in size between the size of a cat and as big as a husky.
6. Are found in the same basic body plan as the ocredrake varieties, which are the most basal forms.

Drakes usually:

1. Have branched antlers.
2. Have only one wing finger and a sail of struts that make the membrane of the wing follow along the tail
3. Have black eyes.
4. Have three toes.

 

But I have to admit that different body types for Drakes could do some good for them (honestly, I'm not sure how eastern drake would work out without their signature wings), as long as other requirements are there still.

 

As for Drakes not having a lot going on in their group... can we really blame the breeding group for it? There are people who want drakes, then there are people who go "oh, drakes got released, I'm not even gonna collect them" due to it not catering to their needs of pairing to... you guessed it, to dragons in the base breeding group (most often coughpopularonescough), which once again isn't guarantee that the drakes would get any more attention than they already do.

Pygmies and Two-Headed have not only hybrids going on in them, but Pygmies have the rare luxury of having Halloween sprite. We already have some drakes that could make spectacular hybrids when combined... but lack of colors in Drakes themselves is abysmal unfortunately. We have green, brown, yellow, bit of gold, and couple blues... We hardly have any overly bold colors like pink, red or purples going on at the moment.

 

People like to make the safer bet of making their concepts be more towards the other groups... just because of the louder people being disappointed that the new release is a drake. Thus, often it comes to question of why one should waste their good concept on a drake? Who knows, maybe if we had more interest, there could be these adjustments to body types as well, further stretching the guidelines and making it more inviting to have them around? Though with how things are going at the moment, it is a shame that a lot of people aren't taking the initiative to fix those problems by actually voicing the demand louder anywhere else aside one or two sentences in forums. I was personally disappointed that the birthday release didn't have any drakes included in it, not that Two-headed had it any better... but at this point, drakes are just basically starving for the attention.

 

So yeah, I'm absolutely in for adjusting guidelines for body type at least, as long as the can still be recognized as drakes. Just to encourage more beautiful breeds for them.

[Murkydepths]

18 minutes ago, Moonlightelf said:

 

 

People like to make the safer bet of making their concepts be more towards the other groups... just because of the louder people being disappointed that the new release is a drake. Thus, often it comes to question of why one should waste their good concept on a drake? Who knows, maybe if we had more interest, there could be these adjustments to body types as well, further stretching the guidelines and making it more inviting to have them around? Though with how things are going at the moment, it is a shame that a lot of people aren't taking the initiative to fix those problems by actually voicing the demand louder anywhere else aside one or two sentences in forums. I was personally disappointed that the birthday release didn't have any drakes included in it, not that Two-headed had it any better... but at this point, drakes are just basically starving for the attention.

 

 

Yeah this really hits the nail on the head with why we get so few drake concepts. Unlike two-headed or pygmies, you can just re-label a drake into a dragon. I was workin on a holiday submission designed as a drake, but likely will be submitted as a dragon. And I don't blame TJ for not wanting to release special breeding group holidays because despite the vocal minority that likes the other breeding groups, I think overall people would be disappointed ESPECIALLY if it were a drake. 

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, Murkydepths said:

 

I am.

 

I'm not against loosened guidelines for drakes, but with that they lose even more of their (arbitrary) 'uniqueness', and have even less of a reason to be a separate breeding group

I'm not that concerned about their morphology, but I love their being a separate breeding group.

[Murkydepths]

1 minute ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I'm not that concerned about their morphology, but I love their being a separate breeding group.

 

I mean honestly them being an unpopular group is what makes me like them too, but I still don't think arbitrary groups are a good idea. I wish regular dragons hadn't been allowed antlers, or we knew more about the lore so we could really come up with some creative ideas for drakes without fearing they'll be denied because they don't fit in the world. 

 

Not what this suggestion is about though so I will shush now. 

[Paradisiske]

If we cant get rid of their separate breeding group then allowing variety into drakes is the next best thing. 

[UnicornMaiden]

I actually feel like the current drake limitations offer a lot of possibilities that are not available for dragons. Dragons are supposed to be sapient and (usually) large. Drakes are supposed to be small, similar intelligence to dogs, and trainable. It would make sense, lore wise, to have drakes that are bred and trained for certain purposes with body features that reflect this.

 

You could have a large, heavy-bodied drake that's bred to help with farm labor. You could have a sharp-taloned drake that's bred for hunting. You could have a pigeon-like drake that's bred for carrying messages. You could have a drake with very sharp senses of smell and hearing that's bred to guard property.

 

All of these could work perfectly well within the current drake parameters. It seems to me like people just aren't taking advantage of these possibilities when they make new species.

[schenanigans]

Drakes as it stands really don't have all that much going for them. Removing what few restrictions they have is only going to make the "but why are they a separate breeding group?" crowd worse. 

 

Their restrictions are pretty much just 4 limbs, bat like wings, and antlers. There's still quite a bit you can do with that - you just have to get creative. Follow the suit of the Pseudowyverns. You can make an eastern drake with a smaller but longer winged sail, or a primarily aquatic drake that relies on the sail for swimming. In fact, you could make quite wyrm-like drakes with little nubbins for feet - all they call for is 4 limbs. Imagine a Glystere with tideweaver limbs. 

 

I'm hesitant to agree that we should remove their restrictions. I understand it may be frustrating for some, but I don't see making them even more like regular dragons being good for their breeding group. And I also don't think tj is going to remove their breeding group altogether. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by schenanigans

[Fuzzbucket]

We have 12 drakes

1. Glaucus Drake
2. Greater Spotted Drake
3. Honey Drake
4. Howler Drake
5. Moonglow Drake
6. Morphodrake
7. Ochredrake
8. Pseudo-wyvern Drake
9. Sunbeam Drake
10. Tarantula Hawk Drake
11. Tatterdrake
12. Vremya Drake

with which one can make some lovely lineages.

 

A whole 12 things people who MIND so much can't add in with regular dragons.

 

We also have papers (which I would LOVE to breed) and some pygmies would look good with minds...

 

IRL there are species which can't interbreed. I can't see any reason to take the drakes out of their own breed group. There are people like me who LOVE breeding lineages with them.

[HeatherMarie]

59 minutes ago, schenanigans said:

Drakes as it stands really don't have all that much going for them. Removing what few restrictions they have is only going to make the "but why are they a separate breeding group?" crowd worse. 

 

 

I very much agree here. There are already people (and entire topic) wondering why drakes are even their own group, they aren't 'unique enough' to be their own group, etc etc. Removing what little distinctions/restrictions they have will only strengthen that view. 

 

I honestly feel that simply loosening their morphology guidelines isn't really going to do much when it comes to their actual popularity. As others have pointed out, when we *do* get new drake releases there is often a lukewarm response. Many users don't like drakes for one reason or another, is a slight *possible* change in body type really going to change that? Remember that 'allowing' different things for drakes is not the same as actually getting those things in-cave, and holds no guarantee that the userbase would like the 'new' drakes anymore than they currently do. 

 

I think there are things that might help the drake group in general, like introducing alts or even a drake with a useful BSA, and if we could get a few really good *colorful* drake concepts in-cave that would be awesome!! (Really, why are drakes usually confined to the same general tones?) And simply releasing more drakes in general, giving the userbase more options to work with when it comes to lineages and such. But *just* relaxing the group-restrictions isn't really going to do much. 

[Mewtie]

While I understand the sentiment, I‘m inclined to agree that taking any of the existing specifications away from drakes makes them even less unique. As a concept drakes are certainly different from dragons, but the visual hint is in their restrictions. Personally, I actually still try to stick to the stricter guidelines and I think they allow plenty diversity already.

[Falorni]

47 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

IRL there are species which can't interbreed. I can't see any reason to take the drakes out of their own breed group. There are people like me who LOVE breeding lineages with them.

If you read the OP you'd see that literally the 2nd thing I said was that I am not implying we should remove the drake breeding group, and that is not what the thread is about in the slightest.  I'd appreciate if people in general did not derail the thread to talk about that when I clarified from the start that wasn't what this was meant to be about.

 

As for the rest of the comments, I understand where y'all are coming from and agree that drakes should still have SOME guidelines (I personally am a fan of the antlers, smaller size and lesser intelligence thing overall!) - however, this is coming more from a standpoint of LOOSER guidelines or even just rewording them as atm to me they read very much "drakes should be limited to western body types".  I don't wanna advocate for just making drakes Dragons 2.0 but I would greatly enjoy the concept of just.  more variety in body type and stature if that makes sense!  @UnicornMaiden mentioned the idea of different body type drakes to imply potential domestic purposes and I would LOVE that, I just get discouraged by the current guidelines because "what if this isn't Drake enough"

Edited May 31, 2021 by Falorni

[Fuzzbucket]

46 minutes ago, Falorni said:

If you read the OP you'd see that literally the 2nd thing I said was that I am not implying we should remove the drake breeding group, and that is not what the thread is about in the slightest.  I'd appreciate if people in general did not derail the thread to talk about that when I clarified from the start that wasn't what this was meant to be about.

I know you aren't - but it has come up, so ...

 

46 minutes ago, Falorni said:

As for the rest of the comments, I understand where y'all are coming from and agree that drakes should still have SOME guidelines (I personally am a fan of the antlers, smaller size and lesser intelligence thing overall!) - however, this is coming more from a standpoint of LOOSER guidelines or even just rewording them as atm to me they read very much "drakes should be limited to western body types".  I don't wanna advocate for just making drakes Dragons 2.0 but I would greatly enjoy the concept of just.  more variety in body type and stature if that makes sense!  @UnicornMaiden mentioned the idea of different body type drakes to imply potential domestic purposes and I would LOVE that, I just get discouraged by the current guidelines because "what if this isn't Drake enough"

 

I don't have that much issue with their morphology, to be honest., I just love them.

[High Lord November]

I think there's plenty you can do with Drakes. You can have vestigial limbs and stretch proportions if you really want to. And restrictions are what make them unique - unlike the broader dragon category that has no restrictions. Honestly I think one of the problems with Drakes could be partially addressed by reserving a certain proportion of DR for Drake concepts. You can also do a lot of unique lore for them because they're more on par with a trainable animal than a fully sentient species. Selective breeding leading to domestication? If allowed, then yes please. There's a lot that hasn't been explored yet!

[HeatherMarie]

2 hours ago, UnicornMaiden said:

It seems to me like people just aren't taking advantage of these possibilities when they make new species.

 

16 minutes ago, High Lord November said:

 There's a lot that hasn't been explored yet!

 

This sums it up, to me. I do feel like trying to change, or 'loosen' the current visual restrictions is just kind of side-stepping the actual issue. There is a *ton* of possibilities for drake expansion, both in terms of looks and lore, with the current guidelines. It's just not being explored to it's full extent, for whatever reason. I feel like the first step in the 'make drakes more popular or useful' movement should be to explore more of the possibilities of what can be done with the guidelines we currently have: Different/bolder/more diverse coloring, different body types that still fit within the guidelines as UnicornMaiden talked about, expanding their 'animal-like intelligence' lore, using that lore to create useful drake bsas, et etc.... THEN after all of those currently-possible avenues are explored, if drakes *still* aren't as appealing overall, then okay maybe loosening restrictions is the way to go. But why jump to the most drastic action (screwing with what actually makes drakes 'drakes') when the already-available guidelines aren't even being used to their full extent?

[Falorni]

Just now, HeatherMarie said:

But why jump to the most drastic action (screwing with what actually makes drakes 'drakes') when the already-available guidelines aren't even being used to their full extent?

Issue for me is these guidelines aren't... exactly informative on what is and isn't actually allowed - which is why an alternate option would be to reword/elaborate further on what would or wouldn't fly.

[Murkydepths]

53 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

 

This sums it up, to me. I do feel like trying to change, or 'loosen' the current visual restrictions is just kind of side-stepping the actual issue. There is a *ton* of possibilities for drake expansion, both in terms of looks and lore, with the current guidelines. It's just not being explored to it's full extent, for whatever reason. I feel like the first step in the 'make drakes more popular or useful' movement should be to explore more of the possibilities of what can be done with the guidelines we currently have: Different/bolder/more diverse coloring, different body types that still fit within the guidelines as UnicornMaiden talked about, expanding their 'animal-like intelligence' lore, using that lore to create useful drake bsas, et etc.... THEN after all of those currently-possible avenues are explored, if drakes *still* aren't as appealing overall, then okay maybe loosening restrictions is the way to go. But why jump to the most drastic action (screwing with what actually makes drakes 'drakes') when the already-available guidelines aren't even being used to their full extent?

 

I think 'for whatever reason', from a spriters perspective, is that making a sprite set takes a ton of work and we don't know if our submissions are unsuitable, and tj can deny things for not fitting the world. Which is alright, but if we don't know what does and doesn't fit beyond the basics (like items are bad...usually. Sometimes allowed. References to real life stuff is bad...usually....) then that risks putting loads of work into something that will be rejected. I like designing drakes, I'd love to design some domestic drakes that have been bred for specific purposes - but I don't know if TJ would like that, why risk it? The pseduo-drake got in so vestigial limbs are ok...maybe? Would a wyrm like drake with vestigial limbs be too much, be seen as just trying to get around the requirements? Right now when desiging drakes not only do you have pretty strict requirements compared to the other breeding groups, you've also got a pretty vague lore realm to work within. 

 

Eg. Drakes are said to be trainable. Does that mean they're common pets? Or are they more like livestock? Have they been selectively bred to produce traits you wouldn't normally find in nature? Or are they 'trainable' as a tiger irl is? Or are all these true??

[HeatherMarie]

I'm not a spriter, but isn't that kind of true of all DRs to some extent? People can work on a DR for years and it never makes it into the cave. Beyond some fairly simple basic guidelines (that actually seem more geared towards what should go into the DR itself instead of what's actually acceptable lore/body-wise), non-drake concepts don't exactly have tons of info to go on either, except simply knowing what's been accepted into the cave already. I guess 'regular' dragon types like easterns and westerns have a more standard well-known body type and possibly less ambiguous than a DC-only 'drake'. 

 

So then, would it help for drake DRs (and regular ones too maybe) if there were *more* detailed/specific guidelines? Especially when it comes to lore and how far you can stretch the body-type outlines?

[schenanigans]

People pour hours upon hours into so many concepts, both holiday and normal alike, that will never even see the light of day. This isn't unique to drakes - it just comes with the territory.

 

The way I interpret the requirements for any concept, as long as they meet the requirements specified, you're free to be a bit more liberal with other aspects of the concept. Be as brave or as conservative as you wish. We've seen basic and crazy concepts in cave. It's up to YOU to decide how far you want to go within the parameters. TJ can only add what's presented to him - if people flirt with concepts and never bring them to life on the "what if" that they don't get used, then that doesn't fall on TJ. 

 

I don't think we need to get more specific into the requirements again. They've already been relaxed in the past to allow for more flexibility. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by schenanigans

[HeatherMarie]

2 minutes ago, schenanigans said:

 

The way I interpret the requirements for any concept, as long as they meet the requirements specified, you're free to be a bit more liberal with other aspects of the concept. Be as brave or as conservative as you wish. We've seen basic and crazy concepts in cave. It's up to YOU to decide how far you want to go within the parameters. 

 

 

We have indeed seen crazy concepts accepted into the cave! Also, from what I've seen in DR, it's perfectly acceptable and fairly standard to submit a DR with some sort of 'I'd like (this specific thing) but not sure it would be too much' and ask for feedback. I've also seen people asking for specific feedback from in-cave spriters about details they aren't sure would be acceptable, and I've seen in-cave spriters commenting on things about a concept that might make it less likely to be used. That all seems fairly standard for DRs in general, I don't see why drake requests would be any different. You want to do a specific drake with things you maybe aren't 100% sure about, try it out! Ask for feedback! Figure out through trial-and-error what might work and might not, instead of simply avoiding the entire drake group just because you aren't completely sure about every detail of their lore/requirements.

[KrazyKarp]

As someone who is not at all artistic and thus does not have an eye for the finer anatomical details, drakes look like any other Western to me. The combination of

 

a) being more restrictive and in a restricted breeding pool

b) yet at the same time not appearing any more unique than other less restrictive breeds

 

feels like it'd be an unappealing combination to create, because why would you make a drake when you could make it a regular dragon in a much wider breeding pool? Because honestly, drakes look exactly like Westerns to me with very minor differences.

 

And I'm not stating that as fact or anything, I'm stating it as a general source of confusion as someone who is 100% player, 0% artist. The other restricted groups have more obvious appeal in uniqueness of physical differences; two-headeds have, well, two heads. And pygmies are small, which seems like a minor difference but also seems to be quite a popular one.

 

I'm not saying anything in support of or not in support of this suggestion. I'm pretty neutral to it, no matter what I'm going to collect drakes and non-drakes, because I like all the sprites. Sprite requirements is not a topic I'm super involved in, nor do I really deserve to be too involved in because again, not an artist by any stretch of the imagination. That being said, I felt like the perspective of someone who is purely a player and not at all an artist might, I dunno, be helpful or something to drop in here.

Edited May 31, 2021 by KrazyKarp

[Guillotine]

I like making drakes, my problem (besides time) is the same as the one two-headeds had for ages: they are extremely limited in palette and that I think makes people shy away from extending their palette for fear of clashing and it means they keep having The Same Colors released which means people shy away from making them which...

 

I remember when Glaucus Drakes were released, it was a huge deal because they weren't brown. It's why I prioritized my purple-pink concept, even if life keeps kicking me in the teeth when I try to touch them up for shading.

[MiserablePileOfSecrets]

Personally, I think the limitations for drakes are fine as is. There's still lots of wiggle room and plenty of unexplored idea within the restrictions. I also feel that the restrictions help set them apart for dragons outside of lore. After all, dragons are sapient creatures and drakes are like dogs, but thats only stated in description. Having a visual distinction helps set them apart.

 

If anything, we just need to make more drakes of more colours.

[Murkydepths]

1 hour ago, HeatherMarie said:

I'm not a spriter, but isn't that kind of true of all DRs to some extent? People can work on a DR for years and it never makes it into the cave. Beyond some fairly simple basic guidelines (that actually seem more geared towards what should go into the DR itself instead of what's actually acceptable lore/body-wise), non-drake concepts don't exactly have tons of info to go on either, except simply knowing what's been accepted into the cave already. I guess 'regular' dragon types like easterns and westerns have a more standard well-known body type and possibly less ambiguous than a DC-only 'drake'. 

 

So then, would it help for drake DRs (and regular ones too maybe) if there were *more* detailed/specific guidelines? Especially when it comes to lore and how far you can stretch the body-type outlines?

 

This pretty much sums it up to me, dragons have tons of in cave examples to give us an idea of acceptable concepts. Drakes not so much, and things like domestication are a pretty big concept that could leads to tons of ideas. I like my concepts for other breeding groups to link towards what makes them special, the smallness of pygmies, the duality of two-headeds, and the animalistic nature of drakes.

 

You might get accepted with a big idea like domestic drakes, but it could also just go against what TJ wants for the world. That combined with the lukewarm reception to drakes that I doubt will ever be on the same level as pygmies or regular dragons (maybe two headeds though) means they're not very appealing to sprite. To me at least, I generally like doing more ambitious or 'out there' ideas so I often seem to be toeing the line with acceptable concepts. I would like it if there were a little more info on drakes and their 'position' in the world. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Murkydepths