Expand drake breeding group

[Murkydepths]

It's been 5 years. I want to know if any opinions have changed.

 

The breeding groups in dc are: Dragons, drakes, two-headed, and pygmies. All of these have pretty notable differences that show up in their design that define the breeding group, and act as an explanation for why they cannot interbreed. Except drakes.

 

The main reason for drakes being unable to breed with dragons is the intelligence, which is a lore tidbit that could be easily changed. They're also mentioned to be small, but if it were just they'd be able to breed with pygmies. Design wise, they don't have any notable characteristics that can only be found on drakes. Their main physical design points are:

 

- Have antlers

- Four limbs and bat like wings

- No thumb

The snow dragon or Heartseeker could be considered drakes by that standard(Ok technically snow has a wing thumb). Other traits that used to define them, like only one wing strut, or having wings that went all the way down the tail, are also found in regular dragons such as sunrises/sets and flares even before those rules were changed and drakes broke them (tatterdrakes and greater spotted drakes respectively)

 

The most common objection to expanding drakes to be able to breed with dragons I've seen, was simply expanding the drake breeding group. We now have 12 drakes, and 5 years ago we had 6, so that shows us about how quickly the group is expanding. Drakes are simply not that popular to make concepts for, because they're unpopular and niche, so less get suggested, and less get in cave. 

 

I actually love a lot of drakes, particularly vremya and tatterdrakes, but them being a drake is more of a hinderance as a lot of the game revolves around lineages - they feel underappreciated.

 

So my suggestion is letting drakes breed with dragons, but I would like to see what other people think. Do you think the drake breeding group is good as is, expanding at a good rate? Do you think they'll get as popular as two-headeds or pygmies eventually?

 

The biggest problem I see to this suggestion is now drake eggs are a smaller size to differentiate them. I dunno what the solution to that would be.

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Murkydepths
added pic of snow + heartseeker

[Arcy]

I feel this so hard. so many pretty pairings that are impossible because drakes are drakes, and the restriction seems so... arbitrary? like they're a separate group just for the sake of it. they'd be fine as a separate morphology instead.

I'm not hopeful that it'll be changed this late into the game, but 🙏

Edited February 9, 2021 by Arcy

[Stromboli]

Snow Dragons do have a thumb on their wing, don't they? It's just not extended.

 

But I feel like if you wanted to fold drakes into the standard dragon breeding group, you'd have to rework the lore. One of the differences between dragons and drakes is that dragons are highly intelligent, and drakes were described as having intelligence about on par with an average dog. Which y'know. That's gotta make co-parenting awkward. 😂

 

There's also the bit where they're different species, and while different species may look incredibly similar, they can't always be cross-bred. Like rabbits and hares.

 

Quote

Though it may appear at first that dragons and drakes have much in common, the two are completely separate species. Drakes are smaller and less intelligent than their cousin species, though both dragons and drakes sit comfortably near the top of the food chain. They are always found bearing antlers and leathery wings. Drakes share many of the same habitats that dragons do, and typically hunt in packs.

 

[Murkydepths]

28 minutes ago, Stromboli said:

Snow Dragons do have a thumb on their wing, don't they? It's just not extended.

 

But I feel like if you wanted to fold drakes into the standard dragon breeding group, you'd have to rework the lore. One of the differences between dragons and drakes is that dragons are highly intelligent, and drakes were described as having intelligence about on par with an average dog. Which y'know. That's gotta make co-parenting awkward. 😂

 

There's also the bit where they're different species, and while different species may look incredibly similar, they can't always be cross-bred. Like rabbits and hares.

 

 

 

I thought the thumb requirement was referring to paws, but it does apparently mean any limb. An earlier iteration it said 'Possess no opposable digits on any limb (no thumbs)'

 

Thus I present new contender for being a drake: Heartseeker!

 

 

I'm aware irl very similar looking species can't crossbreed but this is a game, we make changes to it and the lore to make it more enjoyable. Irl probably none of the dragons could breed together except the exact same type. In game, mint x staterae xeno is allowed.

[KrazyKarp]

I'm not sure why the lore is only applied selectively to breeding. Does a Mint breeding with a Plated Colossus make sense? Not at all. Behaviorally, I doubt a White and Pitfire would breed going by lore. So why is the lore selectively applied to pygmies/drakes/two-headeds and nothing else?

 

Nevermind the fact there's multiple game mechanics that don't make sense in lore. Game mechanics and lore are best kept separate most of the time, I really think all restricted breeding groups should be able to breed with any dragons for the sake of game mechanics. Because realistically in lore, I don't even think we'd be able to force our dragons to breed together, and I mean our scrolls are even just written information and sketches. Who knows how often we even have physical access to our dragons lore-wise.

[Tiira]

I can relate; there are many drakes I really love but I'm not very motivated to plan any drake lines because of the restrictions and too little choice. I mean, if I can't breed it with something I'd like to, anyway...

 

But I still feel I'm not in favour of combining them in the same group with dragons. To me, it seems that they'd have to be dragons for that to work lore-wise, and I wouldn't like to see drakes removed from the game. The breed concepts would change a lot, too.

 

By the way... are two-headed dragons really more popular than drakes? I was just wondering because that surprised me, I'd say I've had the opposite image (but only a very vague image!) I agree about pygmies, though.

[Stromboli]

idk, i feel like if you wanna do away with breeding groups and ditch the drake lore, then drakes ought to just be reclassified as westerns. They have four legs and wings. Maybe then "drake" can be something that can be used in breed naming more freely, instead of having to be beholden to the special drake species rules.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Stromboli

[Tini]

2 hours ago, Varislapsi said:

 

 

By the way... are two-headed dragons really more popular than drakes? I was just wondering because that surprised me, I'd say I've had the opposite image (but only a very vague image!) I agree about pygmies, though.

from a numbers standpoint, there's one less 2-head than drake atm, but, two of those have alts (lind and baikala) and they pretty much all have dimorphism, unlike drakes which mostly don't. Less breeds but far more sprites to play with.

 

in terms of userbase I really have no clue. I do think people like 2 heads more than drakes, I see them more often in the ap at least.

 

I always forget drakes can't breed with normal dragons lol many a lineage idea has died swiftly. So then I don't touch drakes oops

[Murkydepths]

On two headeds, I've known people who are fans of them and breed lineages - am yet to meet someone the same about drakes. Two headed dragons also at least have a physical reasons to be separate, the same would be true if breeding groups had been things like wyrms, easterns, sea serpents. But honestly I'd also be ok if two headed dragon's could breed with regular, I just think drakes have more of a case for it being that there's nothing really special about the group.

[HeatherMarie]

My biggest issue with this idea is that each drake species is, well, *made* to be a drake. Sprite, description, any encyclopedia info, any extra creator info, etc, deliberately shows these species as drakes. I think this maybe would've worked back when Ochres were the only drakes, but at this point there are too many *drakes* that have been deliberately created as *not* dragons. This would go against the very concept of these breed's existence in the game. It would be like suddenly saying Dinos are dragons and can breed with dragons. I get the annoyance of a limited breeding pool, but drakes simply aren't dragons and I feel like trying to shoehorn them into the 'dragon' label just wouldn't work.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Drakes are kind of like dinos and the infamous black Sweetlings where the idea is dated but also has been here so long it's hard to untangle. I wouldn't mind the dissolution of the group myself (I dislike as common a name as 'drake' having been kind of shoehorned into a single user's idea of what a drake is), but I don't see it actually happening. Artists did design within the parameters and I can understand them not wanting their work rewritten, even as I sit here drooling at a few very pretty drakes who see almost no use as-is but would be adored as regular dragons.

[dragongrrl]

I still love the idea of breeding my Ochredrakes with my Royal Crimsons, but I am glad to see the drake options have expanded. I love the look of the Tarantula Hawks, and will spend some time tracking them down after the Valentine event is over.

 

I will check back in. I'm not sure this makes the argument compelling enough for a change.

[HeatherMarie]

If we are going to do away with the Drake classification because it's too similar to Westerns (or others), I'd think we'd also need to finally make Mints pygmies. They are smaller than many of the pygmies we have now! (And for goodness sake make Terrae Westerns! They have wings!)

 

Doing away with the Drake classification because they aren't released often and thus don't have much breeding options/variety, we should also do away with the Two-Head classification. We have less separate two-head species than we do Drakes, after all.  Personally I'd be much more okay with the idea of 2-heads being able to breed with 1-heads than the idea of dog-like animals breeding with the intelligent dragons. 

 

What I'm saying is, of course there are reasons to support this suggestion. The same exact reasons can be made for other groups as well. I haven't so far seen a reason to support *this* and this only. If a unique breeding group is going to be folded into the 'regular' breeding group, why just Drakes? What is it about Drakes and Drakes only that makes this suggestion more reasonable than just doing away with unique breeding groups altogether?

[Fuzzbucket]

This, very much. And I have LOADS of mint lines that would become impossible; if....

 

 

[High Lord November]

5 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

What I'm saying is, of course there are reasons to support this suggestion. The same exact reasons can be made for other groups as well. I haven't so far seen a reason to support *this* and this only. If a unique breeding group is going to be folded into the 'regular' breeding group, why just Drakes? What is it about Drakes and Drakes only that makes this suggestion more reasonable than just doing away with unique breeding groups altogether?

 

At the end of the day, we can define things however we like. There could be a specific gene that makes breeding two heads with single heads impossible. Same with drakes, on top of the intelligence issue. I'm personally fine with the current arrangement, particularly if we increase the release volume for two-heads and drakes.

[Bloommist]

Personaly I agree with this

3 hours ago, High Lord November said:

 

At the end of the day, we can define things however we like. There could be a specific gene that makes breeding two heads with single heads impossible. Same with drakes, on top of the intelligence issue. I'm personally fine with the current arrangement, particularly if we increase the release volume for two-heads and drakes.

I understand both sides, although I don't really create lineages much I can understand why others do as they do look very pretty, and I totally get some Drakes and other individuals from other breeding groups would go perfectly together. but I just feel personally that the breeding groups we're created for a reason even if long ago now, game lore is built around it and that these groups are now so engraved in game play I'd prefer just adding to are current stock of released Drakes

[Moonlight_Eevee]

3 hours ago, VixenDra said:

TBH with drake diversification project +other complaints how underpopulated they are and yet STILL like 1 drak release per year average, I just wouldn't count on that at this point.

 

I actually liked 2019 due to the fact that it was mostly pygmy releases. I was hoping 2020 would have seen an increase in 2heads or drake releases. Unfortunately, that was not the case and it won't seem to be the case this year as our first release was a regular and a hybrid release. A shame really, I would love to see a bigger increase in size for them both like the pygmies

[ShorahNagi]

While I would love more DC Drakes (or Drakes or Draks - call them what you will) and/or the power to do more with them [I liked breeding them back in the day] - I just don't see that happening.

 

In order to update them to match "regular dragons" (not pygmy or two-head)...There would need to be updates to egg sprites, some dragon sprites [which may be impossible given that someone spriters are no longer active/involved with DC]. And not to mention the coding that would have to come into play to make them 'compatible' with other breeds...and the egg ratios [but let's leave that can of worms alone].

 

Plus comes the argument of if Pygmy/Two-Headed should also be updated as well *my vote for that? No.*

 

To me, the easiest solution to this is to keep DC Drakes the way they are, and just add more [nothing is stopping anyone from putting forth concepts of DC Drakes that match current dragons in a way**]

 

TL/DR: DC Drakes need more love, but not in a way that changes what sets them apart from regular dragons

 

**I'm not saying put forth a 'White DC Drake' that's basically a white dragon turned DC Drake in all forms. More like in appearance to allow for better possibilities of lineages within DC Drakes. Example: Vremya Drakes could easily fill in for Equinox Dragons in most lineages that use one or the other with little to no effect on the overall appearance. The personalities are also vastly different.

Edited February 12, 2021 by ShorahNagi
Clarifications

[Murkydepths]

7 minutes ago, ShorahNagi said:

In order to update them to match "regular dragons" (not pygmy or two-head)...There would need to be updates to egg sprites, some dragon sprites [which may be impossible given that someone spriters are no longer active/involved with DC]. 

 

What dragon sprites would be needed to be updated?

 

Also thought this would be a good time to find out how many new egg sprites we'd need. 6 egg sprites would need to be re-done (really shows how few drakes have been added...) The vremya, the honey drake, the morphodrake, the tarantula hawk drake, and the tatterdrake. The other 6 drakes drakes have large egg sprites already. All of the artists for those 6 replacement eggs are active still too, though seeing as we don't know how the update to smaller eggs happened, I'm not sure what the procedure to making them larger would be. Did Tj09 go to the original artists of the original 6 drakes and ask them to make them smaller? Did he do it? Interesting - egg sprites are not credited on dragoncave so...iono.

 

 

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

37 minutes ago, Murkydepths said:

The other 6 drakes drakes have large egg sprites already

 - er, no they don't.

 

https://dragcave.fandom.com/wiki/Egg/Identification_guide/Drakes

[High Lord November]

17 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 - er, no they don't.

 

https://dragcave.fandom.com/wiki/Egg/Identification_guide/Drakes

 

I think what they mean is they already have large eggs in the history of dragcave. Smaller drake eggs were only added in 2016, so any drakes added before that used to have the standard large eggs.

[Moonlightelf]

I can't really support this, even if some of the combinations would be awesome with the biggest breeding pool there is in the site. The breeding group mechanics have been around since 2007 already with Splits, Pygmies and Draks joining the trend 2009. We survived with just single dragon in each group for quite some time.

 

In the biggest breeding pool, we already have 258 different breeds along with their special/alt/hybrid/whatever sprites to breed together with... 154 westerns, 32 wyverns, 18 wingless, 16 wyrms (majority being xenos, gl with zombies), 17 easterns, 8 lindwurms, 8 amphipteres and 5 sea serpents (...the last one being quite a crime for diversity, yikes). This is just counting the breed with amount of different males/females (thus nebula was counted just 2 instead of 4).

I am actually getting tired of releases catering to this specific breeding group, when some of the concepts could have been pointed towards Draks or other limited groups.

 

Meanwhile, pygmies have 21 sprites to play with similar requirements. Two-headed, while they do have just 11 breeds... they can still play with 13 sprites on same basis.

Draks meanwhile have 12.

 

And really... why pygmies and two-headed are doing better? Think things that draks don't have.

Two-headed have alternate colors (Baikala and Two-Headed Lindwurm) plus a hybrid (Jester).

Pygmies, uniquely enough even if people might dislike it, have the rarity of having Event Sprite (pumpkin). They also have the alternate colors on Pargulus pygmies... with addition of Dusk being the Hybrid.

Draks have none of these. No holiday sprite, no alternate colors aside gimmick of Glory drakes hatching into two different breeds, no hybrids (imagine what kind of hybrids these draks could actually make already!).

 

As of lore standpoint... why would more intelligent dragon want a drak as their partner? As far as I question it, why would stronger breed with weaker individual? Aren't animals supposed to secure the best chances of gaining strong mate to make the strongest offsprings? I can see draks trying to, sure, but not the other way around really.

 

Partially... I really hate to say this, but the community is just too used to having the large amount of options with the largest group. Not to mention every time there has been new draks... how many were actually excited about getting a new drak to breed with? I remember seeing two-headed and pygmies getting the hype, but draks never seemed to have the same reception. Might be this is why spriters usually are going more towards the biggest breeding group: to make sure it is accepted by majority of people.

 

Anyways... this was just my few cents to the suggestion. I may be wrong with something, but these have been my observations.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Moonlightelf
Grammar errors, blep.

[HeatherMarie]

100% agree with pretty much everything @Moonlightelf said.  

 

It does seem true, based simply on posts/reactions here on the forums, that even when we get a new Drake most players aren't really excited about it. I've even seen plenty of posts saying they won't collect many/any because they are Drakes. So, it would seem to be a no-win situation: People say having so few Drake breeds is restrictive, they aren't released often enough, etc, but when new ones *are* released that doesn't make people happy either. There are a heck of a lot more Drakes now then there were just a handful of years ago, but apparently it's still not enough for people to actually like them? 

 

I also agree that pygmys/2-heads at least have some sort of special in their group. Both groups have hybrids. I wonder if having a Drake hybrid or two would increase appeal any? Also, while I understand the frustration in new Drakes being released so rarely, there doesn't seem to be a huge effort going into changing that user-side? Looking at the DR section shows only *two* topics with Drakes, and one of those is the long-going Drake diversification. 

 

Drakes are special, in exactly the same ways pygmies and 2-heads are. I would *much* rather see more love for the limited breeding groups, more of an effort to include them in user mass-breeds and user-projects, more of an effort to make *more* to put in the game, etc, rather than just do away with all that uniqueness just because there aren't as many breeds in those groups. 

(But seriously, I'd also rather just see all 'limited breeding groups' folded into the main group if it comes to that, it really makes no sense to strip Drakes and Drakes only of that mechanic.)

[Ruby Eyes]

I agree with @Moonlightelf as well, especially on the observations of "What do Drakes lack that the other groups have?"

Granted, I may be quite a minority to be enjoying breeding projects like this:

https://dragcave.net/lineage/AjR5c (one of EVERY Pygmy sprite in existence right now, and ONLY ONE)

This type of lineage isn't possible with Two-Headeds quite yet, but maybe soon ... *hopeful*

It's also not possible with regular dragons because there are too many of them with only 1 adult sprite (looking at you, Whites! I already need you for TWO hybrids!), and Drakes are also mostly non-dimorph.

As far as Drakes in general go, they have a time-based mechanic (Glory), but nothing else. I'd love some biome-based specials for them, some multi-coloured breeds etc. You know, all the fancy things you can already do with Pargulus Pygmies, Two-Headed Lindwyrms etc. that doesn't require any intelligence - e.g. Copper colours certainly don't! And, of course, hybrids. The more the better.

 

I'd rather see the minority groups get expanded. The year has just started, and @Shokomon is still working on more Drake breeds. Also, DC turns 15 this year - I'm sure we can expect plenty of awesome.

 

Summary: I'm against a merge of breed groups. I see them as a work in progress, with lots of potential. Just need to wait a little bit

[Murkydepths]

2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 - er, no they don't.

 

https://dragcave.fandom.com/wiki/Egg/Identification_guide/Drakes

 

They do, the smaller eggs were an update: 

 

And I find it funny that people are in agreement that drakes are unloved, and lack the sort of thing that makes pygmies and two-headeds special - but then want to keep them as a separate breed group? That is the exact argument I am using as to why they should be included in the main dragon breeding group, because they're not special - they have no real features that separates them from regular dragons, they have less than than some of the current regular dragons like wyrms. The morphs of regular dragons are more deserving to be a breed group. What exactly could you change about drakes to make them exciting? People are not interested in drakes because they're very niche and for no real reason, if you design a drake you might as well call it a dragon and have it be able to create far more linages. 

 

Pygmies and two headeds are already less popular because of their small breeding groups, but because they're special people still like them. More drakes would make them more useable for lineages, but it won't make them worthy of their own breeding group.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Murkydepths