Expand drake breeding group

[Murkydepths]

11 minutes ago, Moonlightelf said:

Merging them with the largest breeding group doesn't guarantee the love. When was the last time one actually meant to breed Water Walkers? Or Waterhorses? Whiptails? Albinoes? Blacktips? Or any other somewhat forgotten dragon that is in the pool of 258 options because we got something new, prettier and popular? Sure they would gain love for a moment out of excitement, but then some of the sprites would go to void of semi-forgotten dragons because they are not "enough pretty".

 

As opposed to now when they don't get love or bred because they have incredibly limited options? And I'm pretty sure the people who do love drakes and breed lineages with them will still love them when they're made regular. A lot of the drakes are really beautiful, and I would definitely breed them if they had more options, I don't see adding new drakes as a valid option cause it took 5 years to get 6 more drakes...just not enough variety. 

 

EDIT: Also...I really like whiptails, they're one of my favs ;-;

Edited February 13, 2021 by Murkydepths

[Fuzzbucket]

22 minutes ago, Moonlightelf said:

Merging them with the largest breeding group doesn't guarantee the love. When was the last time one actually meant to breed Water Walkers? Or Waterhorses? Whiptails? Albinoes? Blacktips? Or any other somewhat forgotten dragon that is in the pool of 258 options because we got something new, prettier and popular? Sure they would gain love for a moment out of excitement, but then some of the sprites would go to void of semi-forgotten dragons because they are not "enough pretty".

 

Exactly this.

11 minutes ago, Murkydepths said:

 

As opposed to now when they don't get love or bred because they have incredibly limited options? And I'm pretty sure the people who do love drakes and breed lineages with them will still love them when they're made regular. A lot of the drakes are really beautiful, and I would definitely breed them if they had more options, I don't see adding new drakes as a valid option cause it took 5 years to get 6 more drakes...just not enough variety. 

 

I love them partly BECAUSE they are special. I don't dislike a single one of them. There are a good few regular dragons I ill never breed because I really dislike them. We all have our preferences..

 

Quote

 Pygmies have a much smaller sprite style (aside from pumpkins, which are super old)

BTW pumpkins are small. Look at the dragon, not the pumpkin it lives in !

 

[Silverwatermist]

15 minutes ago, VixenDra said:

This.

Draks are just western dragons with a textbit that would take a few seconds to remove per breed and just a few eggs to enlarge.

I asked this earlier in the thread, but does anyone know if this is actually the case, that it would be that easy to change? It's not just a text bit, it's the entire lore that the designs of the Drakes were built on artistically, so does this mean that every spriter and concept creator of every Drake on DC would all need to collectively agree to allow the lore of their creations to change? My previous comment expanded on this more, but I'm still wondering. (Although of course, I have no clue if anyone reading this knows either haha)

[Fuzzbucket]

27 minutes ago, VixenDra said:

 

Meanwhile splits and pygmies stand out at a first glance and are as diverse as the regular breeding group, just need more focus from spriters.

That's all that drakes need. For those who aren't OK with them as they stand.

 

27 minutes ago, VixenDra said:

 

And let me remind this: too many projects (here: breeding groups) result in not enough resources and focus put into each. And, clearly (as we can see), 4 is too many.

 

I don't see that "clearly" at all.

[Moonlightelf]

18 minutes ago, VixenDra said:

not enough resources and focus put into each.

And clearly, whenever people are "we need more drakes" and drake is released... The excitement is usually gone in matter of hours or couple days, and then are disappointed for getting what they were asking: more drakes. Thus they don't put the resources to where they are needed because people are finicky in the matter. The drakes have been two-bladed sword for quite some time in regards of the releases.

 

As for some being "we got only 6 drakes in 5 years"... Splits were there since the beginning of the game as the single two-headed for 6 years before we got another two-headed, Gilded Bloodscales. Drakes? We waited only one year for the 2 Glories. So that excuse doesn't fly with me.

[KrazyKarp]

9 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

What I don't understand or agree with is changing Drakes and only Drakes. If the arguments here are more breeding opportunities, just eliminate different breeding groups altogether (or make more Drake concepts!). If the arguments are selective lore and/or drakes not being different enough to be a separate group, fix the lore and make it all consistent. ALL of it. Not just Drakes. Either different body types and intelligence can breed together or they can't, full-stop. Either make everything breedable together or separate everything. 

 

I agree with the idea of eliminating restricted breeding groups entirely. If the restrictions on drakes were removed, I would hope the same would be done for pygmies and two-headeds. Because you're correct, removing the restrictions on drakes and only drakes but keeping the pygmy and two-headed restrictions wouldn't make sense since the selective application of lore applies to them, too.

[Murkydepths]

6 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

That's all that drakes need. For those who aren't OK with them as they stand.

 

 

But...they can't be updated that way? You can't go back to the old sprites and add something no other dragons have, and you can't go back to regular dragons with drake features (mostly the antlers and wings) and make them drakes. They're never going to have a feature unique to them.

[Fuzzbucket]

All they need is more attention from spriters. They don't NEED updating. We could just use more of them. They are "unique" by having been created as drakes.

 

57 minutes ago, VixenDra said:

also, consider a situation what if TJ decided all breeding groups need even release count per year. Divide the year by 3 groups and by 4 and see the difference of how many pygmies or splits the first option allows vs the second one.

 

Also the disappointment drak releases cause vs the excitement a new pygmy or split causes.

 

That would be fine. And I'm not sure what illustrative example you feel has been ignored. Do please say, so I can think about it...

 

For the record - there was a huge amount of enthusiasm for the last few pygmy and drake releases. Especially the Pargulus and the Dusks.

[High Lord November]

I love two-heads, I love pygmys, and I love drakes. I can't see these groups interfering with anyone's playstyle (they're a small proportion of the dragons), they add a lovely bit of lore and uniqueness to the game, and there are already tons of dragons for you to make lineages of. It's just not possible for them to be a gamebreaker.

 

People enjoy different aspects of the game - some like to collect CBs, some love breeding lineages, some want to collect just one of each sprite, some like to collect z codes - none of it is very logical and all of it is personal. Believe it or not, people do like drakes and pygmies and two-headed dragons, even with their limited breeding pool. Even if a lot of animals look the same, it doesn't mean they can interbreed and produce offspring, and I like that bit of subtlety/distinction in the game. Since we're unlikely to see more exclusive breeding groups added, these guys are basically grandfathered in, and I would see it as a negative to remove them.

 

11 hours ago, KrazyKarp said:

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post, but I'm not really seeing any supporting arguments, just statements of how things currently work. Just because something happened previously in DC history does not exclude it from any change. We've seen this many times, from the addition of trophies to the return of CB holidays and such. But again, I'm not completely sure I'm interpreting this part of your post correctly.

 

Yeah, that was just in comment to when you mentioned other pairings don't make sense. It's just an aspect of the game - we can define boundaries wherever we want, it doesn't have to be absolute consistency. Just because other pairings are illogical, doesn't mean that all pairings should be allowed.

[Lost_Unicorn]

1 hour ago, Silverwatermist said:

I asked this earlier in the thread, but does anyone know if this is actually the case, that it would be that easy to change? It's not just a text bit, it's the entire lore that the designs of the Drakes were built on artistically, so does this mean that every spriter and concept creator of every Drake on DC would all need to collectively agree to allow the lore of their creations to change? My previous comment expanded on this more, but I'm still wondering. (Although of course, I have no clue if anyone reading this knows either haha)

You are asking "is it feasible to change the status quo" while people are arguing if status quo should be changed at all. It's okay to identify the problem and it's theoretical solutions, even if it won't get fixed. TJ is the only one who can realisticaly tell how hard it is to do something about his project anyway.

Just my vote:
I think it's best to remove breeding groups. Drakes should lose their "less intelligent" from descriptions (why is it such a big deal anyway? It doesn't say they are dragon-shaped dogs - it's ambigous on their precise level of intelligence), but can keep everything else (sprites, lore) because why not.
edit: and other stuff about "no cross-breeding" should also be removed.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Lost_Unicorn

[Fuzzbucket]

16 minutes ago, High Lord November said:

I love two-heads, I love pygmys, and I love drakes. I can't see these groups interfering with anyone's playstyle (they're a small proportion of the dragons), they add a lovely bit of lore and uniqueness to the game, and there are already tons of dragons for you to make lineages of. It's just not possible for them to be a gamebreaker.

 

People enjoy different aspects of the game - some like to collect CBs, some love breeding lineages, some want to collect just one of each sprite, some like to collect z codes - none of it is very logical and all of it is personal. Believe it or not, people do like drakes and pygmies and two-headed dragons, even with their limited breeding pool. Even if a lot of animals look the same, it doesn't mean they can interbreed and produce offspring, and I like that bit of subtlety/distinction in the game. Since we're unlikely to see more exclusive breeding groups added, these guys are basically grandfathered in, and I would see it as a negative to remove them.

 

 

Yeah, that was just in comment to when you mentioned other pairings don't make sense. It's just an aspect of the game - we can define boundaries wherever we want, it doesn't have to be absolute consistency. Just because other pairings are illogical, doesn't mean that all pairings should be allowed.

 

I think I love you.  

[purplehaze]

I see no compelling reason to change the breeding groups as they exist. There are already endless possibilities for breeding. If you don't like drakes, don't collect them and just breed your regular dragons.

I would like to see more drakes in the cave to have a bit more diversity within the group, but removing them entirely and mixing them in with an already large group doesn't make sense to me.

[Silverwatermist]

35 minutes ago, Lost_Unicorn said:

You are asking "is it feasible to change the status quo" while people are arguing if status quo should be changed at all. It's okay to identify the problem and it's theoretical solutions, even if it won't get fixed. TJ is the only one who can realisticaly tell how hard it is to do something about his project anyway.

I agree that TJ's the main one who knows how feasible it is, but I was specifically wondering if changing the lore would require spriters'/creator's permission due to art contracts, because that might turn this conversation from "What if we changed this?" to "It's impossible, because at least one spriter already says no and wants their Drake's lore/description left exactly as is", if that makes sense? And time might be better spent troubleshooting ideas on how ELSE the site could solve how limited Drakes feel to some people.

But I have to say, I disagree that the Drake breeding group is is a "problem" that's being identified. Discussing how it could change and why it should or shouldn't change is totally cool and I'm all for this thread existing, but whether this particular game mechanic is a problem is pure opinion, because this isn't a bug or something that breaks or stalls game play, it's just an under-developed little corner of the game that some people enjoy as is, and are eagerly waiting on* more content for. A number of people in this thread have already stated that they like the Drake breeding group as-is, not because it's "the status quo" and should just be left alone, but because they enjoy the different lore, enjoy that Drakes seem special in their own group, and simply want to see more Drakes added rather than this particular suggestion implemented. The breeding groups existing is not a definite problem, it's a world-building choice the site/art creators made, just like how you can only breed Holiday eggs during their season or that Hybrids can't be CB because they were designed to be hybrids. They're all world-building choices. People are allowed to not like those choices and suggest changes, no problem there! But this thread is getting very circular IMO with a lot of repeated arguments, so I feel like it's worth pointing out that this isn't a broken aspect of game play that people are digging their heels in and refusing to see the light on, it's a mechanic built off of lore that shapes the world in Dragon Cave, so changing this might break TJ's or the artists' images of how this world works, and they might outright say no? 😅 So I feel like we need to hear some takes from in-cave artists and such.
 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Silverwatermist

[Murkydepths]

If we are considering purely whether people like drakes as a breeding group or not, it must be remembered that the forum is pretty biased. The majority of users don't use the forum, and the forums have regulars. 

[Fuzzbucket]

That is a "problem" with every last suggestion that is ever made here. What's your point ? The same actually applies to threads - people only chip in if they have a view - which leads in turn to threads with two small groups of players, each with opposing views. You're never going to get the view of the thousands and thousands of people with scrolls. Or even a vote within the forum.

 

TJ said ages ago he doesn't look at polls for this very reason - any idea only attracts people who feel strongly one way or another. Not to mention the fact that once you've voted and someone convinces you otherwise you can't switch.

 

ETA there are a whole 27 people in this thread. Opinion is fairly evenly divided.

 

The forum has 70,216 members. Any of them could have commented and didn't choose to. There are 58 members on line right now. Any of them....

 

The views in a thread will NEVER represent the player base as a whole.

 

But that doesn't mean that because they have said nothing, they agree with you. I realise this is your thread and you want this very much - but a roughly equal number in it disagree as agree with you.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Fuzzbucket

[Ruby Eyes]

13 hours ago, High Lord November said:

That's because of the history of the game, and the fact it's a game.

 

Drakes were established from the beginning as a separate species that couldn't breed with dragons. Technically we could have had it so only wyverns would breed with wyverns, amphitheres with amphitheres... but it's not possible now, because that would make a stunning amount of lineages suddenly ineligible, and it would make breeding way more complex and limited overall. I'm happy having the three special breeding groups we have at the moment, even if they are limited. Removing the drake breeding group wouldn't add anything to the game, and it's unlikely that any other unique breeding pools would be added ever again, so why cull the ones we already have?

 

As a longterm player and breeder, I'm kind of looking for *more* grouping opportunities rather than fewer, e.g. a breeding project involving only wyverns or another involving certain elements, colours, poses etc, because after a while, you've done nearly everything you could with only your favourite breeds.

Just a random comment that I felt needed to add after reading this

 

Which reminds me that several of the Drake, Pygmy and Two-Headed breeds still don't have an elemental affinity attached to them. Which tells me that some of the older breeds' artists or conceptors may no longer be around to retrofit new mechanics to those old breeds, or just not willing to do so. Which hints at a possible answer to @Silverwatermist's concerns.

[sorenna]

I for one love drake breeds and have several lineage projects with them!  I wouldn't mind if they could also breed with pygmies (aren't they both smaller than "real" dragons according to game lore?) but I also don't mind them being a separate variety; we have many lovely drake breeds, and I'm hoping we'll have many more! 

 

{Purple drakes... I dream of purple drakes... and silver ones.  }

[Arcy]

"don't like them, don't breed them" is sorta missing the point. there are drakes I really like, there's just hardly anything for me to do with them, so I don't bother. if I didn't like them at all I wouldn't have commented. I'm assuming it's the same for others who support this suggestion.

someone said this in another thread and I think it's worth bringing up. what if the physical requirements for drakes were relaxed, e.g. more body types available for them? it would open up more possibilities for drakes, hopefully inviting more people to take an interest in/submit them, and our current drakes would be unaffected.

 

(also, yesss more purple and silver please <3)

[TJ09]

At this time, I have no intention of changing how Drakes work on Dragon Cave. I get that there is a general desire for more flexibility underpinning the request, but simply wanting that flexibility is not a justification for providing it. The different breeding groups create restrictions, yes, but they also add variety to the site and its lore. Arguments that the designs are "close enough" that they could possibly fit into an existing breeding group don't say anything about why they should.