We Need New Drop Mechanics. It's Just A Fact.

[Shiruvix]

Honestly, I support this. I remember I spent days hunting for the Balloon Dragon, simply because newer more common breeds were taking those slots on the biomes(Looking at you DND dragons). I don't really mind how this is done, we just need more eggs visible at once, or more biomes, heck, ANYTHING. If something would change positively, I'm pretty sure new releases will be less hectic and people won't spend hours trying to grab a single egg.

[Tiira]

Oh, true! Rares and uncommons can be practically impossible to catch for many, many players - how could you catch one if you never even see them in the cave? But it's not only that. I collect CBs from specific dates, and almost every time it surprises me (and, often, makes me very frustrated) how difficult it can be to find this or that common dragon in the biomes, even if I'm able to be online the whole day, which obviously isn't always the case. I am just thinking out loud, but this is something I so easily forget because on a daily basis I like to hunt for any common CBs that I need on the AP. Like, last Thursday I was checking and refreshing the alpine biome every five minutes for hours and didn't come across a single elux lucis. Fortunately I was lucky enough to grab an abandoned elux egg later, eventually! (And all this lurking in the cave and on the AP was probably the wisest thing to do while suffering from a prolonged migrain attack, oh well, we all have our priorities and I can only blame myself.)

[KelticLeigheasoir]

Support 100%...seems the mechanics drops the same eggs over and over and new releases become rarer and rarer.  I haven't seen Zyumorph in forever and disappointed they cannot be bought.

[Fawkesian]

Chiming in again on this topic. I've been trying to collect new breeding pairs of some older, common breeds, and it is genuinely difficult. At best, it takes a day or two of checking in at the 5-minute refreshes... at worst, I'm looking at over a week of hunting for certain breeds. These are not rares, yet most breeds now behave that way, when there's such an abundance of them competing for a very limited spawning space. It's made much worse by commons from recent releases that keep eating up space in the biomes -- I like the D&D breeds. Really, I do! But no matter how cute the Pyrrhichios is, it still drives me mad that there's at least one in the volcano more often than not.

 

Hunting in the cave was not always like this. And I don't believe it was intended for things to be as bad as they are now. However, hunting for CBs of any kind isn't fun with the current system; I know the community here is notoriously averse to change, but even a band-aid fix would go a long way to making the game more enjoyable for everyone.

[CaptainHarrie]

Hmm, since there's concerns about 6 per page being too much for people's eyes to scan & being too busy for mobile, what if each biome had an additional page..?

 

 

It makes the UI a little busy to look at on mobile especially, but I would assume people searching multiple biomes would want to be able to quickly switch between each pile in the biomes they're hunting in, and people hunting in one biome can switch between piles using the link in the new flavour text.

[ravensunset]

5 hours ago, CaptainHarrie said:

Hmm, since there's concerns about 6 per page being too much for people's eyes to scan & being too busy for mobile, what if each biome had an additional page..?

 

 

It makes the UI a little busy to look at on mobile especially, but I would assume people searching multiple biomes would want to be able to quickly switch between each pile in the biomes they're hunting in, and people hunting in one biome can switch between piles using the link in the new flavour text.

I really love this mock-up, it looks fantastic and makes a lot of sense, this is exactly the update I'd like to see

[sugarfreesugar]

FULL support! I- and I mean this- have seen more Dinos, Papers, Chickens, and Leetle trees in the caves than any metal. I have seen two CB coppers from the caves. Ever. I've seen almost seven Leetle trees. Something has to change, and I would take anything at this point; whether that's a new biome, another row, anything. Especially with over 300 dragons now, what we have now just isn't cutting it, unfortunately.

[CaptainHarrie]

So, we talked a little bit about this in the discord today, so I'm going to summarise and discuss some of the talking points and possible solutions we came to.

 

A little context: I'm recently coming back to the game after about a decade, and when I was playing back then was before and during the original split from the single front page into the 6 biomes we have today. Comparing my past experience playing the game to right now, the difficulty in getting any one specific common dragon egg is extremely noticeable. Since this was when I last played the game with regularity, I actually remember this all pretty vividly. Rares and uncommons were definitely hard to find, but getting individual commons was not too difficult at ths point, but it was starting to get a little tedious. After the split, it became much easier to find those uncommon dragons, and I did not have any issues finding any specific common dragons, which makes the issue with the current situation stark for me.

 

The initial split from one cave into 6 happened when there were around about 65-ish dragons competing for those 3 front page spots. The reason the original split happened was because at that point, it was becoming really difficult to find any of the metallics in the cave, and it was also getting harder to find uncommons while the front page became clogged with pinks and reds and other such common dragons.

 

Compared to today? Well, there are over 300 dragons on the site and their distribution across the 6 biomes is as follows (thank you HBKit):

Alpine: 92
Coast: 76
Desert: 69
Forest: 94
Jungle: 92
Volcano: 70

 

I want to reiterate that the original split happened when there were roughly 65 dragons competing for a spot in the pile. Every single biome has now exceeded this number, and the Alpine, Forest, and Jungle biomes already have 40% more dragons in one pile than the original split count! Is it any wonder that it is so difficult to find specific common dragons when we've exceeded that original tipping point by such a wide margin.

 

Definitely, something needs to be done. However, with the rate at which new dragons are implemented into the site, even if we split the piles and increase the number of eggs displayed, with enough time this problem is only going to rear its dragony head again, and continually adding new biomes is not much of a solution as the UI clutter is only going to grow immeasurably.

 

In regards to the UI clutter, Rudjé gave some suggestions irt the increase in eggs and biomes of placing the eggs at the top followed by the description, and increasing the number of eggs to 6, producing something like this:

 

The idea is that by having the eggs at the top, the additional vertical space created by the additional biomes and additional eggs will not be an issue. But I must confess, I find myself agreeing with the sentiment expressed earlier in this thread that 6 eggs is simply too many to scan easily at a glance. However, I do think the reordering of the eggs vs the description is a good suggestion, so I'll be using it for subsequent mockups.

 

Yet, if increasing the number of eggs displayed and the number of biomes isn't a good solution, then as the title says, we need new drop mechanics.

 

HBKit had two great suggestions for this. The first was making more breeds migrational like the luminas and harvest dragons are, making certain breeds more common or sparse in different seasons, and the other was the introduction of daily weather. I think this is a great idea—through a combination of seasons and weather, it would be possible to carefully control the amount of dragons competing for a specific pile.

 

And I think with the addition of some form of weather forecast for upcoming days, this will add an additional layer of strategy to hunting for eggs while not cluttering the UI with millions of different links, and adding new potential weather types to a biome is a more viable future solution than continually adding new biomes.

 

In any case while 6 eggs is too many, I think increasing the number of eggs to 4 should be fine. I think dividing our biggest biomes to create a more even distribution is also not a bad idea, though you guys may have some better biome suggestions.  Altogether, that could look something like this:

 

 

Another, less thought out idea that I had was that it might be time to introduce another continent to explore. There could another list of 6 biomes, potentially new and different ones, and the dragons are redistributed between the different continents. I do think the weather idea is more future proof, however.

Edited August 16, 2022 by CaptainHarrie
Forgot to finish a sentence 😅

[ravensunset]

2 hours ago, CaptainHarrie said:

So, we talked a little bit about this in the discord today, so I'm going to summarise and discuss some of the talking points and possible solutions we came to.

 

A little context: I'm recently coming back to the game after about a decade, and when I was playing back then was before and during the original split from the single front page into the 6 biomes we have today. Comparing my past experience playing the game to right now, the difficulty in getting any one specific common dragon egg is extremely noticeable. Since this was when I last played the game with regularity, I actually remember this all pretty vividly. Rares and uncommons were definitely hard to find, but getting individual commons was not too difficult at ths point, but it was starting to get a little tedious. After the split, it

 

The initial split from one cave into 6 happened when there were around about 65-ish dragons competing for those 3 front page spots. The reason the original split happened was because at that point, it was becoming really difficult to find any of the metallics in the cave, and it was also getting harder to find uncommons while the front page became clogged with pinks and reds and other such common dragons.

 

Compared to today? Well, there are over 300 dragons on the site and their distribution across the 6 biomes is as follows (thank you HBKit):

Alpine: 92
Coast: 76
Desert: 69
Forest: 94
Jungle: 92
Volcano: 70

 

I want to reiterate that the original split happened when there were roughly 65 dragons competing for a spot in the pile. Every single biome has now exceeded this number, and the Alpine, Forest, and Jungle biomes already have 40% more dragons in one pile than the original split count! Is it any wonder that it is so difficult to find specific common dragons when we've exceeded that original tipping point by such a wide margin.

 

Definitely, something needs to be done. However, with the rate at which new dragons are implemented into the site, even if we split the piles and increase the number of eggs displayed, with enough time this problem is only going to rear its dragony head again, and continually adding new biomes is not much of a solution as the UI clutter is only going to grow immeasurably.

 

In regards to the UI clutter, Rudjé gave some suggestions irt the increase in eggs and biomes of placing the eggs at the top followed by the description, and increasing the number of eggs to 6, producing something like this:

 

The idea is that by having the eggs at the top, the additional vertical space created by the additional biomes and additional eggs will not be an issue. But I must confess, I find myself agreeing with the sentiment expressed earlier in this thread that 6 eggs is simply too many to scan easily at a glance. However, I do think the reordering of the eggs vs the description is a good suggestion, so I'll be using it for subsequent mockups.

 

Yet, if increasing the number of eggs displayed and the number of biomes isn't a good solution, then as the title says, we need new drop mechanics.

 

HBKit had two great suggestions for this. The first was making more breeds migrational like the luminas and harvest dragons are, making certain breeds more common or sparse in different seasons, and the other was the introduction of daily weather. I think this is a great idea—through a combination of seasons and weather, it would be possible to carefully control the amount of dragons competing for a specific pile.

 

And I think with the addition of some form of weather forecast for upcoming days, this will add an additional layer of strategy to hunting for eggs while not cluttering the UI with millions of different links, and adding new potential weather types to a biome is a more viable future solution than continually adding new biomes.

 

In any case while 6 eggs is too many, I think increasing the number of eggs to 4 should be fine. I think dividing our biggest biomes to create a more even distribution is also not a bad idea, though you guys may have some better biome suggestions.  Altogether, that could look something like this:

 

 

Another, less thought out idea that I had was that it might be time to introduce another continent to explore. There could another list of 6 biomes, potentially new and different ones, and the dragons are redistributed between the different continents. I do think the weather idea is more future proof, however.

this is a really lovely and well done analysis. The argument for how many eggs are competing for spots now vs at the time of the biome split is I think really compelling evidence to show that a solution is necessary

[Charu]

Definitely in full support. If you don’t catch a NR right at release, you’re not getting it. Let alone true rares like metals, dinos, chickens, papers, staterae, etc. 

[Rosedamai]

2 hours ago, Charu said:

Definitely in full support. If you don’t catch a NR right at release, you’re not getting it. Let alone true rares like metals, dinos, chickens, papers, staterae, etc. 

Honestly, I've still got 4 more varieties of adult zombies to make(I dread to think of the hatchling army I'd have to amass in the future for zombifying purposes) and every time I make 0 zombies I have to get 5 more of the same breed. It's been hard to hunt for them, even though they are fairly common breeds- furor pygmies, baikala dragons, temple wyrms, and ghansers. 

 

I'd like to point out that this "If you don’t catch a NR right at release, you’re not getting it" is particularly accurate from the pov of someone who collects single sprites only-no lineage making, no armies, so on-playing dragoncave is more or less something like, pop in only when there are new releases, grow them to adulthood or until the hatchlings can be frozen, and then not check the site for the rest of the month, which can be quite freeing from a game player's pov. I don't have to stress about logging in to make sure my dragons can breed again every week, or spend endless time looking at the screen trying to catch rares in order to trade for whatever breed I need for my lineage. However from the pov of someone who has to run the game site, this isn't that profitable, because I only log in at certain times of the month and then go completely awol for weeks at a time.

Edited August 16, 2022 by ylangylang

[CaptainHarrie]

7 hours ago, CaptainHarrie said:

 After the split, it became much easier to find those uncommon dragons, and I did not have any issues finding any specific common dragons, which makes the issue with the current situation stark for me.

Oops! Forgot to finish this sentence last night LMAO

[ShadowMistaken]

Support. During the Hydra release this year, I got only two CBs during the release, and any others that I own were traded/gifted, an absolutely nightmare. Another egg at the very least would be great.

[Skadi]

Okay so it's not just me and CB common hunting Has gotten worse :/.

 

I think bandaid fix could be hunting the d&d dragons to extinction, but honestly? I'm annoyed we would have to do that. Also that fix then makes them harder for new members to get. I just want to see Tercorns again, man, I'm not even after metals. I don't play this game for lineage building, either, but it seems I have to if I want to build collections.

 

It shouldn't require that much play to catch commons. Maybe a good idea is having a better rotation of common spawns as well as more eggs and biomes. Either way I just want to see more commons available.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Skadi

[ACDragonMaster]

Chiming in that it's gotten stupidly hard to find CB commons, especially older ones.  I've been trying to round out some of my CB numbers on my scroll (I have a few that for whatever reason I never grabbed more than a couple!) for a while now, and I had to sit and refresh pages on the five minute updates for hours to get them.  This is including occasionally picking up other eggs besides the ones I'm hunting for just on the offchance that it'll show up in the newly cleared spot!  And again, I'm experiencing this looking for commons.

 

It used to be, back when I originally joined the game, that if a gold or silver dragon gendered wrong I could just abandon the hatchling and have a new egg within a day or two.  And while I'm not suggesting that we try to make it so that all rares are that easy to get, clearly we need to do something.

 

And no, insisting people trade for them is not an acceptable solution.  Oldtimers like me may be able to breed eggs valuable enough to trade for CB rares, but new users are going to be extremely SoL.  And given that some of the commons I was recently hunting for were basic BSA dragons?  Yeeeeaaaah good freaking luck to all the newbies getting their hands on what they need to even begin to play catchup.

[Skadi]

I'm actually not having much trouble with rares because the shuffle seems to prioritize pushing rares to the top. Even with more drops, I think rates will remain rare.

 

I think the market is the best solution for metals, as it's always been. But if basic commons and uncommons for a collection are so hard to get that you have to spend your shards on them, the market's purpose is defeated.

[SmilodonLady]

Hi! I'm not someone who usually posts on the forum but umm... I saw this a few days ago and had an experience that literally makes me 100% support this and the suggestion for less player unfriendly rates earlier on. I'm somewhat newer compared to most of y'all and I was trying to find some Pinks the other day and only found one that I could be certain was one in the span of like 20 mins (I saw two that could have also been flamingos and well I didn't want that)

To make this story even crazier, I'm 80% sure I saw a Zyumorph egg in the volcano and regrettably ignored it because I was after Pinks to get some influence BSAs for myself. Let me reiterate that I saw a rare in the same amount of time it took me to find what is considered a more common breed! Granted I could be wrong and have misread the description or saw it wrong but still, In the case I was right then it literally proved that the drop mechanic is wack as heck and kinda counter intuitive.

 

I'm not saying make rares more common or anything like that, no, they are rares (tho not so obscenely rare it might as well be a cryptid if you know what I mean) I'm more saying things that are more common should be more common and perhaps eggs should be handled a bit differently instead of maybe shuffling every 5 mins if nobody wants what's available. Yeet the unclaimed to the AP, add more rows to the current page, reshuffle the eggs a bit more often and perhaps more randomly,  SOMETHING to remedy the issue as it's only going to get worse the more dragons that are added since the system just ain't gonna work as is with the sheer numbers involved. If it requires some overhaul to the system then so be it,  as from what I've gathered the current system was put in to merely prolong the inevitable. And the inevitable has kinda come around already. 

[Reazek]

Full support. I can't offer any new idea on how to change drop mechanics for the better, but I want to express my personal feelings about it.

Right now hunting for certain breeds in the cave feels like a nightmare to me. I'm not speaking about rares - I'm speaking about common dragons. I often leave without any eggs at all because there is just nothing worth taking, especially when there are 3 duplicate eggs in a biome, no one wants to grab them and you have to wait for 5 minutes again. 5 minutes is TOO MUCH when you literally have to sit and wait.  And if you don't sit and wait - you have a high chance of missing everything. It feels like shuffling eggs every 5 minutes is simply not enough, considering how many breeds we have right now and how many players are there on the site.

I've read all the comments in this thread and would like to say that I find the idea of refreshing eggs every 1 minute instead of 5, or adding an extra row quite compelling. The current system is very hard to put up with.

[Skadi]

It's worth noting too that it's easier to get rares by trading because people pick them up for trade value. It is literally easier to get CB rare dragons than CB common ones. My recent 2g prize was traded for mostly Blusangs because they were easier to get than the commons I collect. And unless I coordinate a trade ahead of time, I don't get commons for my rares.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Skadi

[ednfall]

support!

i’ve been really wanting to collect more royal crimsons and blues for eminences, since i absolutely adore them. i have, somehow, managed to catch MORE cb rares than royal blues… ONE blue

i snagged from the ap by chance! >:/ it should not be easier for me to grab three coppers, see five leetle trees, and a bunch of xenos before a freaking royal blue!

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by ednfall

[-Rinikka-]

Full support. Some common dragons are really hard to find, and it feels like the eggs in the cave are always the same for each particular biome. Sometimes they don't even change the breeds in the 5 minute drop. 

[phantom_white]

I support. For as long as I've been playing this game I STILL don't have a CB Gold.  I've seen maybe 2. I also have problems finding older common dragons...

[StarlightLion]

I've just come back after a three year hiatus, and I've seen three Coppers, a handful of Zyumorphs, a chicken, several cheeses, one Staterae, one Paper, and a solid chunk of Xenowyrms, and one, maybe two, Reds in the biomes. And I have a LOT of time to trawl the cave. The drop system is dying an undignified death.

 

That all said, I support most of the ideas here presented already - sub-biomes, extra display eggs, quicker refresh times (as long as the site can handle that without returning us to the Lag Event) - but my personal favourite solution is the non-hostile ratios.

Honestly, I don't really think it matters even if the original intention was to be hostile with the ratios. How is that hostile a foundation supposed to support a game that's actually fun to play and collect? It's always been a quiet problem, but now that our drop mechanics are starved, those flaws are really starting to show. When you take up a long-term project, you have to accept that some of your original intentions are not going to make it through, and having a deliberately hostile element to the game - especially something as critical as drop rates and ease of hunting - creates a superbly non-sustainable game.

The Market works fine for just rounding up scroll goals, if those goal are small and the user isn't saving their (severely limited) shards for actual rares and other expensive Market buys, but if you have a large goal, or you're hoarding something, or you just like hunting for the thrill rather than getting that guaranteed egg, it's just not a viable option. Not to mention that several of our dragons have biome-related breeding mechanics. Market-born dragons are a problem in that regard.

 

Make the game work with us instead of against us. Why do we have to fight the game itself to get what we want out of it? At that point, I'm just going to play another game.

 

Let's not even talk about the twenty or so spreadsheets I have to actually keep track of all the scroll and breed information I want to have on hand.

[Fuzzbucket]

3 hours ago, StarlightLion said:

've just come back after a three year hiatus, and I've seen three Coppers, a handful of Zyumorphs, a chicken, several cheeses, one Staterae, one Paper, and a solid chunk of Xenowyrms, and one, maybe two, Reds in the biomes.

 

Actually that's a LOT of good stuff.... Just saying.

[StarlightLion]

7 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Actually that's a LOT of good stuff.... Just saying.

 

Oh yes, that was my point. I've seen a lot of 'rares' and none or almost none of tons of commons. That's backwards as heck