We Need New Drop Mechanics. It's Just A Fact.

[schenanigans]

I don't think more egg slots is part of the solution. There are a lot of assumptions being made about play styles and "what ifs." I wouldn't use my extra egg slots to hunt. I would just breed more for lineages or hunt the AP more. Saying people are more likely to pick up eggs because they don't perceive them to be "sacrificing" slots for something else just doesn't really seem true to me; it doesn't matter if we have 5 slots or 15 slots, people are still going to use them for what they want, not necessarily to cycle the cave. The 5 hour wait time is intended to slow that, too. 

 

Decreasing the abandon timer from 5 hours to 4 could be a good start. I also like the idea of breaking up biomes to have sub-biomes. That could offer a lot of options for new dragons as well, though that also splits up the playerbase even more across the cave. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by schenanigans

[purplehaze]

1 hour ago, schenanigans said:

I don't think more egg slots is part of the solution. There are a lot of assumptions being made about play styles and "what ifs." I wouldn't use my extra egg slots to hunt. I would just breed more for lineages or hunt the AP more. Saying people are more likely to pick up eggs because they don't perceive them to be "sacrificing" slots for something else just doesn't really seem true to me; it doesn't matter if we have 5 slots or 15 slots, people are still going to use them for what they want, not necessarily to cycle the cave.

I have to reluctantly agree. I would like more slots, so I would like to think that they would help.

However, I remember when we went up to 8 slots for the highest. It did not change the way I played at all, just gave me more space to do the things I was already doing.

[Fuzzbucket]

What she said. I am not going to collect a load of eggs I don't want that have 7 days to go. I WILL do that in the AP from time to time, and hatch and dump hatchies, but...

[Diggie]

If sub biomes existed, I think it would open the door to more breed variety. I also think it would help spread out the hunters and breeds over more space, which is the root cause of the problem--too many hunters seeking out too specific of eggs in only 18 spots for eggs to generate. That being said, sub biomes would be a major change to gameplay in reducing the hunters in the biomes by around half. It seems like the least invasive solution to the problem that addresses the actual root, but it still would be a huge difference that I'd fully understand if it weren't implemented. 

[KageSora]

9 hours ago, schenanigans said:

Saying people are more likely to pick up eggs because they don't perceive them to be "sacrificing" slots for something else just doesn't really seem true to me

 

But it is true.  Just not universally true.  It's true because I, specifically, would very much be happy to pick up more dragons that I am actively passing on that sit there for ages if I had more slots.  Yes I'd also use them for lineages and such, and collecting more of things that are rare or cycling the cave looking for them, but I would very much be happy to grab some extra "blockers" if I had more slots because I happen to like those dragons.

 

That's why more egg slots is a partial solution aspect, and not the be-all, end-all solution that will fix everything.  It won't account for every single playstyle, but it would ease the issue for at least some players (as well as easing some other issues).

 

How, though, would reducing abandon time by an hour help anything?  If more slots wouldn't suddenly entice players to load up on stuff they don't want then neither would reducing the abandon delay.  Personally, I only grab stuff I'll be abandoning if I'm already about to go off and do something else--reducing it by an hour would change absolutely nothing as far as my playstyle is concerned so I wouldn't see a single bit of use from that.

 

7 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

What she said. I am not going to collect a load of eggs I don't want that have 7 days to go. I WILL do that in the AP from time to time, and hatch and dump hatchies, but...

 

I mean, it's not just "collecting stuff you don't want"--for me it's more "I only have so many slots so I'd rather use them to hunt for the uncommon or rare dragons I'm after or to work on lineages rather than grab the super common or even blocker dragons I actually do really like".  Why waste my slots on a dragon I know I'll be tripping over forever, even if I happen to rather like the sprite?  There's a reason why I stopped grabbing hellfires despite them being rather common and sitting around for quite a while whenever I see them even though I adore the female sprite.  There's a few other breeds I'd gladly collect more of if I had more slots so that I could both work on lineages and grab loads of eggs that don't sit around for a while.

 

Again, it wouldn't be a total solution because you're right that it wouldn't entice every single player to load up on dragons they don't want--but it would help at least some players grab more of the common dragons they want but can't prioritize over harder to obtain things they need for lineages.

[Katann]

I would not mind this type of change, I have been away for a bit and I see that we can buy eggs now. I know I would like to see more drop rates on rare dragons or if a rare dragon drops have three drop at the same time, though it still would not help me, I  click too slow lol

Edited December 1, 2022 by Katann

[_Ro_]

I personally think cycling eggs more often would help most. Cave blockers are probably unavoidable without changing core mechanics so may as well refresh them sooner.

I'm never gonna complain about more egg slots though.

[tjekan]

On 11/20/2022 at 12:41 PM, purplehaze said:

I have to reluctantly agree. I would like more slots, so I would like to think that they would help.

However, I remember when we went up to 8 slots for the highest. It did not change the way I played at all, just gave me more space to do the things I was already doing.

 

That is true, but since what many players are already doing is taking eggs from the cave, if those players had more slots they would have more space to do that, which would necessarily make the cave move quicker. Not every player would need to hunt in the cave for it to have an effect on shuffle speed, only some of them.

 

Also, an increase in eggs that go to scrolls every week, regardless of whether they are CBs or bred eggs, would chip away at the problem with the ratio system. I'd prefer a more direct solution for that issue, but the more eggs that join the system the more the ratios will approach what they're 'supposed' to be and the further we'll get away from the situation where a pairing will produce the newer breed 90% of the time. If scroll space doubled then the time that took to happen would halve.

[Cireth]

I think this a good solution. I would prefer adding a second row than a 4th egg.

 

Another good solution would be adding more egg and hatchling slots along with more new drops.

 

We currently have 8/24 for Platinum which is 1000 adult/frozen dragons.

 

I have roughly 2300 adults.

 

If I gained an egg slot per 500 adults, with the current hatchi multiplier, it would give me, 10/30 so I would grab a lot more eggs.

 

More new eggs every hour, more eggs being grabbed, less pile up. Less hunting problems.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Cireth

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, Cireth said:

More new eggs every hour, more eggs being grabbed, less pile up. Less hunting problems.

 

For those of us with loads of slots. Even harder for those with fewer. I have well over 11,000  dragons, and I know how hard it is for new players to find anything.

[Cireth]

37 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

For those of us with loads of slots. Even harder for those with fewer. I have well over 11,000  dragons, and I know how hard it is for new players to find anything.

I like pretty blockers. I hardly ever grab them because I'm saving my slots for my breeding projects. So many gorgeous hellfires so little time.

 

If I had more slots, I'd grab more blockers.

 

But I guess some people would only go for rares so yeah it could be a problem.

[StarlightLion]

As disheartening as it is to see this thread still kicking after so long (and the many, many threads that preceded this one) without the problems that spawn these threads being addressed, I'm gonna go ahead and chime back in anyway because yeah. Hunting for specific eggs - even commons, even with a lot of downtime in which to hunt, even as an older player with platinum - is a nightmare. It must be so, so much worse for new players or players that don't have as much time as I do. I'm defaulting back to the idea of non-hostile ratios, and while that doesn't deal with the core availability problem of having eighteen available CB eggs total versus the what, 300+ breeds we have now? plus the lightning speed that rares are snapped up, it'll still help a lot, and especially with other ratio problems. Quite aside from the issues the current drop mechanics and cave system create, I'm genuinely just baffled as to why the ratios were created to be hostile to the players to begin with.

Don't get me wrong, I've had ideas that I thought were neat and turned out bad on execution, I think that's pretty much a universal experience, but to keep the idea kicking, unchanged, for what like fifteen years now? Colour me confused.

 

Also egg slots, yes please. I don't have a clean solution as to how exactly they should be distributed but I'd grab a lot more CBs if I had the slots to spare. At the moment, I already have to be quite picky about how I delegate my slots just to continue my breeding projects (and my Snow/Floral-Crowned obsessions), let alone having CBs and holding a slot for if I manage to snag a super rare. Which really, come to think of it, strikes me as another problem that non-hostile ratios could solve, or at least alleviate. I wouldn't be so paranoid about holding an open slot if spotting and then catching the super rares wasn't like hunting for hen's teeth.

[masterkat6]

I don’t think more slots or an extra row of eggs or even sub biomes will help. Unwanted eggs have been blocking the cave for as long as I can remember - at least as far back as 2010. If you give people more egg slots, or there’s more eggs in the caves, most people will just keep doing what they’re doing. There will still be less than 5 users browsing most biomes until the hourly drop, some people will still strive to fill their egg slots with rares (some to trade only for things a select few users can produce, such as gen 2 spriter’s altkin), and there will be some people who don’t care and will be breeding or collecting more for their personal projects and they’ll still struggle finding what they need through unwanted eggs in the cave.

 

My ideas may not be viable either, but I figured putting them out there couldn’t hurt.

 

I’m not familiar with current drop mechanics, but if bred dragons retained on scrolls affect them than possibly changing it so that only CB dragons affect caveborn drop rates would help a little. It would increase drop rates for dragons commonly desired for lineages due to the popular artwork or their utility (such as BSA specific lineages). And if course it would increase rare drops due to people breeding them often due to their rarity and value.

 

Another thing I can see possibly helping (which is likely a lot more controversial) would be CB rare eggs taking more egg slots, essentially setting a limit to how many rare eggs one can have - after all, they're rare dragons. From an in game perspective, they theoretically need more effort to raise - how can raising 4 of them at once be just as burdensome as 4 common eggs? 
((As for bred eggs, I don’t see as much of a need for these limits, and in-game logic could be used as well to explain it - you technically have the parents on the scroll helping care for them, or for AP/traded eggs, you know their specific lineage/genetics and would have a better idea of what that particular egg/hatchling needs).

 

The last thing I can think of that may help would be increasing the incentive for collecting more caveborn common breeds. There used to be a forum project for it, but it likely died due to how many cave blockers there are now and the difficulties keeping track of so many users. Possibly something could be implemented with the marketplace - like if you collected a certain number of extremely common/unwanted dragons from the cave during the week, you get bonus shards beyond the weekly activity limit. That way even if you can’t find a more common breed you want for a lineage in the cave, you can at least get them more easily from the marketplace. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by masterkat6

[KageSora]

3 hours ago, masterkat6 said:

Another thing I can see possibly helping (which is likely a lot more controversial) would be CB rare eggs taking more egg slots, essentially setting a limit to how many rare eggs one can have - after all, they're rare dragons. From an in game perspective, they theoretically need more effort to raise - how can raising 4 of them at once be just as burdensome as 4 common eggs? 

((As for bred eggs, I don’t see as much of a need for these limits, and in-game logic could be used as well to explain it - you technically have the parents on the scroll helping care for them, or for AP/traded eggs, you know their specific lineage/genetics and would have a better idea of what that particular egg/hatchling needs).

 

How many players do you actually think have 4+ rares on their scroll that they've picked up from the cave at any given time?  I'm willing to bet it's a minuscule number, compared to the overall active playerbase.  I'd say the average player is more likely to have zero rares on their scroll at any given time so I can't see how rares taking up extra spaces would do anything to entice people to pick up other dragons.  If anything I think it'd make people even more selective because, well, now they have even less space to work with so they will not waste any of their other precious slots on something common, even if they like the sprite.  And then they're picking up less dragons overall, so there's less people who are willing or even able to grab the blockers so I really, really don't see how that could do anything but exacerbate the issue.

 

If anything, say that Rares were made to take up an extra slot--well, if I were hunting dragons I'd just treat it like I had one less slot available even if I had them all free, which means I'd be picking up less dragons overall because I'd be trying to keep not just one but two (or more) extra slots free specifically for if I happened to stumble across a rare dragon for once.  Rare hunters would do the same thing, and I know other players would as well just in case.

 

So you'd effectively be removing the incentive to pick up common and blocker dragons significantly by making it so that if players want to even have the ability to pick up a rare if they get lucky enough to even see one they have to have even less dragons on their scroll than usual.  That's an incentive to leave larger numbers of your slots empty of everything.

[masterkat6]

14 hours ago, KageSora said:

 

How many players do you actually think have 4+ rares on their scroll that they've picked up from the cave at any given time?  I'm willing to bet it's a minuscule number, compared to the overall active playerbase.  I'd say the average player is more likely to have zero rares on their scroll at any given time so I can't see how rares taking up extra spaces would do anything to entice people to pick up other dragons. 

I see new trades almost every day to every other day with multiple CB rares - either nonbreedables or metallics. And chances are there are more users that just keep them to themselves. But you are right - a small portion of users would just save the slots for them in case they run across them if they took up more slots instead of grabbing more commons to make the cave move. Instead maybe something like a specific extra egg slot or two for a CB rare/very rare (almost like a breed limit, but as an extra slot above the usual just for the eggs) would make people more willing to fill their slots with blockers.

 

Or maybe even having commons take less time to hatch and grow would be a better fix - that way people would see them as less of a ‘burden’ to pick up and raise to adulthood and help lower the drop rates of those breeds. Heck if I know exactly how things would play out, but I’m not going to just shoot down others ideas without posting other possible solutions.

Edited February 7, 2023 by masterkat6

[_Ro_]

I want to second your idea of commons being easier/faster to raise. 

 

 

CB rare hunting does feels like a competition of "who has the fastest internet" sometimes. Trading up 4 low time hatchies for an egg does clear a few more common eggs out of the cave but having them take just as long to raise as the rare means i'm not taking anymore commons out in the meantime. 

[KageSora]

7 hours ago, masterkat6 said:

I see new trades almost every day to every other day with multiple CB rares - either nonbreedables or metallics. And chances are there are more users that just keep them to themselves. But you are right - a small portion of users would just save the slots for them in case they run across them if they took up more slots instead of grabbing more commons to make the cave move. Instead maybe something like a specific extra egg slot or two for a CB rare/very rare (almost like a breed limit, but as an extra slot above the usual just for the eggs) would make people more willing to fill their slots with blockers.

 

Again, do you think that represents the average player on the site?  I don't.  Far from all players even use the trading hub, and the trades that involve multiple rares are a fraction of the trades on the hub.  Furthermore, they may not have caught them all even if they're CB.  Some people trade for them and then offer them as a bundle for something even rarer.  So it's not like there's a small number of players who are snapping up every single rare that shows up and hoarding them to trade while the rest of us can't get any--they're just rare and some people have hours to spend to dedicate to rare hunting alone or have gotten lucky with trades to have more than one at once.

 

Also, it's not "a small portion of users who would save their slots"--I mean I'd bet it'd be more than a tiny portion once people realize they're being actively screwed out of getting the rare dragon of their dreams if they don't leave those open, but if they have a rare that is taking up more than one slot they are actively being prevented from grabbing additional eggs because the rare has, again, lowered their inventory space.

 

The problem is that currently people have no incentive to waste their already highly limited inventory space on blockers unless they're doing a personal project with them.  A "rare only" slot would just feel like you're either rewarding people who hunt for rares or you're punishing them (depending on if it was a "this is a bonus slot just for rares" or "all rares go in this slot so you can only have one at a time" kind of deal), which is going to be annoying for either anybody who doesn't hunt for rares ("why do they get an extra slot for specific dragons but I can't have one for the dragons I want to collect?") or annoying for rare hunters and that is a valid way to play the game, telling them "you need to stop doing that because you are only allowed to have one at a time" is telling them their playstyle is not correct for the game.

 

7 hours ago, masterkat6 said:

Heck if I know exactly how things would play out, but I’m not going to just shoot down others ideas without posting other possible solutions.

 

And this line of thinking is what causes people to propose solutions that are completely illogical when you examine the current problem being discussed.  (It's also what causes people to try to offer a "solution" that's been proposed repeatedly and discussed at length and shot down, causing discussions to become circular for pages on end, as can be seen in other threads that become quite lengthy)

 

I've read the thread, I've participated in the thread--every single solution I would offer up to the problem has already been suggested and discussed.  I've participated in discussing them and weighing pros and cons and supporting the ones I think are useful and shooting down the ones I see issues with.  There's some solid suggestions in this thread, if you read it.  It's not like it's 50+ pages of circular argument (yet).  I'd prefer to see a few things combined with addressing the ratios because I feel like any one solution on it's own is just treating the symptoms and not the cause and thus will only ever be a partial or temporary fix.

[masterkat6]

1 hour ago, KageSora said:

 

Again, do you think that represents the average player on the site?  I don't.  Far from all players even use the trading hub, and the trades that involve multiple rares are a fraction of the trades on the hub.  Furthermore, they may not have caught them all even if they're CB.  Some people trade for them and then offer them as a bundle for something even rarer.  So it's not like there's a small number of players who are snapping up every single rare that shows up and hoarding them to trade while the rest of us can't get any--they're just rare and some people have hours to spend to dedicate to rare hunting alone or have gotten lucky with trades to have more than one at once.

I never said that it did - just as people collecting mostly from the AP or only using more slots for breeding don’t make up a majority of players. But the fact that I personally see multiple people offering rare eggs caught around the same time leads me more to believe the players caught them while hunting rather than trading for them even if that’s just coincidence. 
 

And you’re right, a majority of people have none on their scroll despite being able to trade for them. They’re rare to find, hard to trade for, and I’m grateful the marketplace exists otherwise I’d have none for my lineage projects.
 

Quote

 if they have a rare that is taking up more than one slot they are actively being prevented from grabbing additional eggs because the rare has, again, lowered their inventory space.

I already realize that wouldn’t work and acknowledged it. And like I said initially, I knew somehow limiting the number of CB rare eggs at one time on scrolls would be controversial. Initially the ‘taking an extra slot’ was to avoid completely limiting those who trade for and collect multiple at one time, but it just won’t work.
 

And me having a bad idea doesn’t change the fact that I also want there to be some sort of major fix(es) for this issue that can last long-term. 

 

Quote

I'd prefer to see a few things combined with addressing the ratios because I feel like any one solution on it's own is just treating the symptoms and not the cause and thus will only ever be a partial or temporary fix.

As would I. Which is why, like you, I’ve posted some ideas on this thread, even if not all of them would actually be helpful. My apologies if they’re repeated from old threads that they were shot down or discussed at length in, I haven’t been active on the forums in many years because of a long hiatus and this is the thread that’s trending. I’d rather post here than look up and grave-dig old threads saying I support them (if they even still exist).

 

In my initial thought process, we already have done more eggs available at one time by introducing biomes and more egg slots by introducing the trophies, and while they seem to have fixed things for a time we’re still running into the same issues as there were just as the site was starting to grow that required these things to fix it. And there aren’t 40 people looking at the same 3 eggs for 5 minutes in a single cave anymore - it’s been pretty well reduced with the biomes, and we still have blockers because of how ratios work. So other alternative fixes should be addressed and discussed in a place where users can more easily see and keep track of them.
 

That being said, this will be my last reply to this thread for a while to avoid 50+ pages that no one wants to read 😅

Edited February 7, 2023 by masterkat6

[StarlightLion]

On 2/6/2023 at 7:15 PM, masterkat6 said:

The last thing I can think of that may help would be increasing the incentive for collecting more caveborn common breeds. There used to be a forum project for it, but it likely died due to how many cave blockers there are now and the difficulties keeping track of so many users. Possibly something could be implemented with the marketplace - like if you collected a certain number of extremely common/unwanted dragons from the cave during the week, you get bonus shards beyond the weekly activity limit. That way even if you can’t find a more common breed you want for a lineage in the cave, you can at least get them more easily from the marketplace. 

 

I think this idea has merit. I'm not sure on what the numbers would be or how exactly it would be implemented, but the Marketplace as serves currently simply is not a substitute for the cave. Not that you've suggested that, but it's something that's come up before, and simply buying the things you're looking for from the Marketplace isn't a viable solution for more than a few eggs at a time, even if you're buying commons. The cheapest eggs are 100 shards - so even for commons (and some commons are hard to find now for all the stagnation etc already discussed in the thread), it takes an entire week to get one egg.

A bounty system for collecting and raising certain dragons could have longterm viability even if the ratios are addressed! The site already tracks what kinds of dragons you're catching and raising - it knows when you've fulfilled raffle reqs. for certain elemental alignments or biome origins. I don't know anything about coding so I could be entirely wrong but it doesn't seem like implementing a bounty system would be too drastically difficult.

[AnthillDragon]

I would like an extra row of eggs and/or more biomes a lot! I don't have a problem with how the cave currently is, but I think adding more opportunities to find eggs would make the game more fun and lend more opportunities to get the full enjoyment out of our many wonderful new and old breeds ^^

[Arlen]

On 12/6/2022 at 2:31 AM, _Ro_ said:

I personally think cycling eggs more often would help most. Cave blockers are probably unavoidable without changing core mechanics so may as well refresh them sooner.

I'm never gonna complain about more egg slots though.

Agree with this a lot

I remember last christmas people would snatch up anything that wasnt holly, and you would often come back to nothing but holly eggs that nobody wanted to take

Everyone was snatching up dragons lightning fast the second it refreshed or someone took them lol

 

Also super agree with the people saying its hard to find plain old common and uncommon dragons, I have many dream dragons that are only commons! I remember how delighted I was to see Elux Lucis dragons appearing in alpine recently.

 

I did find a gold in the cave once, but it was only days after I joined so I had no idea what it was.... it was only when I found the identification guide on Fandom that I realized how much I goofed up picking a random common dragon over a cb gold!

[StarlightLion]

2 hours ago, Arlen said:

holly eggs that nobody wanted to take

This specifically would have been because of the 2-CB limit; it's not that nobody wanted to, it's that nobody could. That said, refreshing the cave more often would solve that problem too! Christmas and Valentines just sit on older eggs because we literally cannot move them. New players, or players who missed prior releases, don't need five minutes to pick up their CB from the completely unmoving queue, and it makes getting hold of newer breeds (if you're missing them) even harder than it already is.

[Arlen]

I completely forgot about that mechanic, thank you

and yeah, youre right

[_Charky]

This is all bringing back memories of the mossy egg topic from years ago.

[Derision]

On 2/9/2023 at 12:00 AM, StarlightLion said:

the Marketplace as serves currently simply is not a substitute for the cave. Not that you've suggested that, but it's something that's come up before, and simply buying the things you're looking for from the Marketplace isn't a viable solution for more than a few eggs at a time, even if you're buying commons. The cheapest eggs are 100 shards - so even for commons (and some commons are hard to find now for all the stagnation etc already discussed in the thread), it takes an entire week to get one egg.

 

Just wanted to chime in and say I agree. For someone like me who only has one CB stat and a market stat there is zero reason for me to buy ANYTHING off the marketplace when I should be saving for a stat. I am too slow to grab them in cave, I've played the game for years and never ever even seen one. People are just faster than me so the only way I could ever hope to get another is from the marketplace. I don't think a lot of people like me who are just saving for stats don't even touch it otherwise.