BSA Nurture for hatchies

[DragonLady86]

While Arias getting this would benefit me right away given my army of them, I actually think Frills are the better choice.  Not only was their creator on board with them getting a "hatchling incubate" when it was suggested years ago, but the expanded lore she has lists them as caretakers and protectors of the young.  (no idea why all Lythiaren's headcannon for them hasn't made it to the encyclopedia yet.)

 

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

Pillows would be perfect for this, is all I’m saying. From their encyclopaedia:

 

“Very easy-going and caring. Have been known to adopt in hatchlings and ill or injured adults of other dragon species. 

While the rest are asleep, dragons in the group will take shifts in different tasks such as keeping watch for danger, care taking, or hunting.”

[borntobefree]

I think it fits Dc just fine taking a day of both the egg and the hatchie, you are still looking at least 4 days of growth. The whole reason i added the pureblood or caveborn bit was to mollify the ones who thought it was too easy or overpowered to be able to do both. I figured a hurtle would quell the opposition. I wouldn't use the excuse of "because magic" I'd use evolution and adaption.

 

The Candelabra dragon sounds like a good option as well.

 

Is it out of line to suggest a holiday dragon? They only come out once a year, and it would slow down, the speed some are not happy about and keeps it uncommon.

[catstaff]

3 hours ago, borntobefree said:

The Candelabra dragon sounds like a good option as well.

 

Is it out of line to suggest a holiday dragon? They only come out once a year, and it would slow down, the speed some are not happy about and keeps it uncommon.

 

I wouldn't suggest a holiday dragon as a BSA dragon, particularly this BSA. It doesn't fit with the lore surrounding any of the currently in-cave holiday dragons, or even with the lore surrounding the holidays themselves. For example, I could possibly see Valentine dragons with a BSA to make refusals reconsider mating, as that would sort of go with the whole spirit of loving, romantic love thing. (I know there is a suggestion thread for getting refusals to try again, but I haven't read it and don't know what dragons are being proposed for the BSA... I am NOT throwing Valentines into the ring for that!) However, I can't see Valentine dragons as particularly "parental" that would super-nurture hatchlings.

 

Honestly, BSA dragons in general should be fairly common, not limited like holidays or prizes, or rare like metallics. I've seen Arias, Candelabras, Frills, and Pillows all brought up as good candidates for this BSA for varying reasons... I personally lean towards Frills or Pillows due to their descriptions and the lore surrounding them. Also, I think BSAs should operate on the K.I.S.S. principle; the simpler the better.

[olympe]

1 minute ago, catstaff said:

 

I wouldn't suggest a holiday dragon as a BSA dragon, particularly this BSA. It doesn't fit with the lore surrounding any of the currently in-cave holiday dragons, or even with the lore surrounding the holidays themselves. For example, I could possibly see Valentine dragons with a BSA to make refusals reconsider mating, as that would sort of go with the whole spirit of loving, romantic love thing. (I know there is a suggestion thread for getting refusals to try again, but I haven't read it and don't know what dragons are being proposed for the BSA... I am NOT throwing Valentines into the ring for that!) However, I can't see Valentine dragons as particularly "parental" that would super-nurture hatchlings.

 

Honestly, BSA dragons in general should be fairly common, not limited like holidays or prizes, or rare like metallics. I've seen Arias, Candelabras, Frills, and Pillows all brought up as good candidates for this BSA for varying reasons... I personally lean towards Frills or Pillows due to their descriptions and the lore surrounding them. Also, I think BSAs should operate on the K.I.S.S. principle; the simpler the better.

Very much all of this. Although this seems like a good point in time to bring up one of the old suggestions: Giving several suitable breeds the same BSA. (Wasn't that even TJ's very own suggestion, way back when?) 

[DragonLady86]

4 hours ago, borntobefree said:

I think it fits Dc just fine taking a day of both the egg and the hatchie, you are still looking at least 4 days of growth. The whole reason i added the pureblood or caveborn bit was to mollify the ones who thought it was too easy or overpowered to be able to do both. I figured a hurtle would quell the opposition. I wouldn't use the excuse of "because magic" I'd use evolution and adaption.

 

 

The reason BSA's are not given to rare dragons is BECAUSE TJ wants them to be fairly easy even for newer players to get.  So trying to make the dragon harder to get is not the way to go.  That's why a fail rate and/or a long cooldown is how you counter powerful bsas. 

 

So negatives are things that should be discussed.  If you can't Incubate and nurture the same egg, then it maybe doesn't need a fail rate.  and the cooldown should be at least as long as Incubate at 2 weeks.  The idea of getting 24 hours off total was interesting, but to do that Incubate would have to be altered as well.  It always takes 24 hours off, even if the egg is at 4 days and 6 hours, it doesn't take 6 hours off to bring it to 4 days, it takes it down to 3 days 6 hours.  and I really don't see that happening.  IF we were to be able to use both,  Then this should have a high fail rate.  I'm thinking something like Earthquake, maybe this doesn't kill the hatchling, but it's only a small chance of actually working if the creature in question was already Incubated.  Though, I suppose death would be an expected "lore" thing, if it was forced out the egg sooner than it wanted (premi) then over-feeding it to make it grow sooner might be more detrimental to it's health.  (just devil's advocating myself here, I personally don't want this option)

[olympe]

20 minutes ago, DragonLady86 said:

 The idea of getting 24 hours off total was interesting, but to do that Incubate would have to be altered as well.  It always takes 24 hours off, even if the egg is at 4 days and 6 hours, it doesn't take 6 hours off to bring it to 4 days, it takes it down to 3 days 6 hours.  and I really don't see that happening.  IF we were to be able to use both,  Then this should have a high fail rate.  I'm thinking something like Earthquake, maybe this doesn't kill the hatchling, but it's only a small chance of actually working if the creature in question was already Incubated.  Though, I suppose death would be an expected "lore" thing, if it was forced out the egg sooner than it wanted (premi) then over-feeding it to make it grow sooner might be more detrimental to it's health.  (just devil's advocating myself here, I personally don't want this option)

Well, the egg you described may be taken down to 3 days 6 hours, but it won't hatch more than 6 hours early. That's why I suggested that, even with both Incubate and Nurture used, a dragon cannot grow up before being a full 5 days old.

[HeatherMarie]

Personally, I think if we are going to have a hatchling-incubate (regardless of what it's actually called), I can't see any real reasons to *not* make it similar to Incubate. At least in terms of cooldown/fail-rate/etc. Incubate doesn't have a fail rate, to my knowledge. It just works. If it's an either/or situation, where you can't use both Incubate *and* this, then I'd say there is no real reason for a fail rate. Of course if you can stack them, use both, then there should be a fail rate because that's a *very* powerful thing, altogether taking off 48 hours of growing time. Cooldown could be the same as Incubate, I don't really see much reason to make a super-long cooldown for something like this. Especially if the reasoning is going to be simply 'being a good caretaker' or whatever, there is no reason that a Pillow or Frill or whatever would need a super-long cooldown just because they parented a hatchling extra-well.

[Aalbiel]

11 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

Personally, I think if we are going to have a hatchling-incubate (regardless of what it's actually called), I can't see any real reasons to *not* make it similar to Incubate. At least in terms of cooldown/fail-rate/etc. Incubate doesn't have a fail rate, to my knowledge. It just works. If it's an either/or situation, where you can't use both Incubate *and* this, then I'd say there is no real reason for a fail rate. Of course if you can stack them, use both, then there should be a fail rate because that's a *very* powerful thing, altogether taking off 48 hours of growing time. Cooldown could be the same as Incubate, I don't really see much reason to make a super-long cooldown for something like this. Especially if the reasoning is going to be simply 'being a good caretaker' or whatever, there is no reason that a Pillow or Frill or whatever would need a super-long cooldown just because they parented a hatchling extra-well.

 

Honestly I agree with all of this. Also there is nothing super powerful about taking a day off a hatchie that necessitates putting up obstacles/fail rates/whatever, no more than there is for Incubate. To me, standard Incubate rules with 1 day taken off, 2 week cooldown, would be just fine.

[TerraAnne]

I actually do like this idea, and I'm of the group who thinks it should be pretty much the same as the incubate BSA but for hatchies instead of eggs, with the same cooldowns and such. I do think it should be a common dragon to get it, and honestly Aria sounds the best to me. Though to avoid conflicts with dragon creators I would probably just make a new dragon for this BSA "Nurture".

 I don't have a problem with the idea of an egg being incubated and then that hatchy being nurtured because yeah your egg hatched a day early, but there are two hatchlings ages so to speak with younger and older ones. So a day off of that too doesn't really seem to do much.

If it HAS to have a negative for the above situation then maybe just increase the coolddown. I don't see the need for more negatives on this BSA.
Also on the boat for a no to the holidays cause yeah it should be a common dragon.

[Guillotine]

I'm more inclined to give it to Frills precisely because the creator approved it, but I do agree that if there is a downside it should be a combination of not being able to stack with Influence (as much as I'd like that, I doubt TJ would implement it like that...) and having a long cooldown like Incubate (maybe slightly longer (~3 weeks?) if it stacks). No reason for anything else imo.
 

[olympe]

Well, not trying to beat a dead horse, but TJ once brought up the idea of giving the same BSA to multiple dragons that fit - like also giving Incubate to Spitfires. I think Nurture would be another good one where several breeds apply. 

[Fuzzbucket]

Not to be wetblankety, but I would really hate the idea of a BSA being given to several breeds - or even to more than one.

[Guillotine]

I thought that he preferred the idea o similar-but-distinct BSAs for different breeds? I'm indifferent either way, but it was a while ago and I could be misremembering.
 

[olympe]

If I remember correctly, he brought up both version, and we discussed things to death, sometimes rather heatedly. And then, nothing ever came off it. Not that I can blame TJ, all things considered.  

(And I'm pretty sure I would have remembered if he showed any preference for similar-but-not-exactly-the-same BSAs, because that's what I favor.)

[anetofstars]

I support Frills for the Nurture BSA.

[borntobefree]

I think It should be like reds incubate, seems either frill or aria or candelabra are the front runners, I think it should be only one breed of dragon that can nurture BSA, I'm leaning towards the Aria since they are related to the pinks(?). So here's what I have what seems the most prevalent.

 

1 Nurture can drop a day off of the hatchie phase.

2 It should have a cool down of at least 2 weeks.

3 It can stack with a hatchie that was incubated as an egg,, but this should make it weaker, and probably need to be watched closely and maybe warded or fogged.

4 Should have a fail rate, but not to extreme, maybe a 10% fail rate(?)

 

 

I know some don't like the idea of being able to do this, but to that i simply say, you are welcome to not nurture your hatchies. It is not something you have to do, but many of us like the idea of doing it.

 

 

As a noob here, how do I find who the artist/creators for the Candelabra, Aria and Frill dragons are. I'd like to ask their permissions for deciding which one to chose. Someone mentioned that the Frill creator already approved this, ummm, I must have missed it, could you tell me where that is?

 

So the only question now is should this bsa be given to an already created dragon, or should i start the process of creating a new one for this purpose? (I personally want to see one of the already created dragons get it.)

 

 

Also, why can't we trade adult dragons? Or loan them out, for breeding projects and such?

 

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

1 hour ago, borntobefree said:

I think It should be like reds incubate, seems either frill or aria or candelabra are the front runners, I think it should be only one breed of dragon that can nurture BSA, I'm leaning towards the Aria since they are related to the pinks(?). So here's what I have what seems the most prevalent.

 

1 Nurture can drop a day off of the hatchie phase.

2 It should have a cool down of at least 2 weeks.

3 It can stack with a hatchie that was incubated as an egg,, but this should make it weaker, and probably need to be watched closely and maybe warded or fogged.

4 Should have a fail rate, but not to extreme, maybe a 10% fail rate(?)

 

I know some don't like the idea of being able to do this, but to that i simply say, you are welcome to not nurture your hatchies. It is not something you have to do, but many of us like the idea of doing it.

 

As a noob here, how do I find who the artist/creators for the Candelabra, Aria and Frill dragons are. I'd like to ask their permissions for deciding which one to chose. Someone mentioned that the Frill creator already approved this, ummm, I must have missed it, could you tell me where that is?

 

So the only question now is should this bsa be given to an already created dragon, or should i start the process of creating a new one for this purpose? (I personally want to see one of the already created dragons get it.)

 

Also, why can't we trade adult dragons? Or loan them out, for breeding projects and such?

 

http://dragcave.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Types

 

Click on the breed you’re looking for, and on its page you’ll find all the credits.

 

I think at one point it was said that adding BSAs to already existing breeds is less likely to be approved, but I have no idea how true that is - @TJ09 what would you recommend? Should OP ago through with a new dragon request or is it worth suggesting it be put on an already-existing dragon?

 

As for your last questions @borntobefree, they’ve been asked a few times but this thread isn’t really the place to discuss them. You can ask in the “Tiny Little Questions” thread in the Help section if you want people to answer little queries like that.

[DragonLady86]

As for where Lythiaren (frill creator) gave permission it was in the old thread on Nurture back when we had a BSA subform.  (and possibly before they were discontinued and then brought back....)

[borntobefree]

So whats the next step, in this process? @TJ09 Do you have any preferable ideas for this BSA, which dragon do you think matches this BSA best.

[Fuzzbucket]

THAT is the kind of thing he won't be answering any time soon, I think.

[borntobefree]

That's too bad, I'd prefer to know his opinion on the matter and not just what people are thinking he'd do, he'd probably surprise some who think they know him so well, so many people seem to put words into his mouth. granted they probably have been through similar things before but it does mean its going to be the exact same thing, so it might not be the exact same answer. I used to run a similar wolf site back in the 90's and ots, and I was always surprised at what members thought I'd do and not do, they were often correct, but not always. 

 

I'm thinking Frills at this point, the description seems easily adapted to nurture.

[Fuzzbucket]

I have absolute belief that TJ is never going to tell you what dragon to use for a BSA. That's all I meant. That's for us to think of and them him to say yea or nay.

 

Personally I love the idea of Pillows - they sleep for 18 hours a day, so would at least not be running off  And they often adopt ill hatchies and help injured adults.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Fuzzbucket

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

 

2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Personally I love the idea of Pillows - they sleep for 18 hours a day, so would at least not be running off  And they often adopt ill hatchies and help injured adults.

 

Me too! As well, it’s right there in their encyclopaedia information that they care for other dragons’ sick hatchies, and take turns doing so!!

 

On 12/12/2018 at 3:48 PM, RealWilliamShakespeare said:

Pillows would be perfect for this, is all I’m saying. From their encyclopaedia:

 

“Very easy-going and caring. Have been known to adopt in hatchlings and ill or injured adults of other dragon species. 

While the rest are asleep, dragons in the group will take shifts in different tasks such as keeping watch for danger, care taking, or hunting.”

 

They’d just be perfect for it  I mean, all the proof is right there!

[Fuzzbucket]

Fwuffywuffies. (I adore pillows...)

 

I should add that I still only support this for hatchies that were not incubated as eggs.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Fuzzbucket