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BUT

 

I really hate how people vilify those who choose not to vaccinate. No matter how successful it tends to be, vaccinating is never 100% protection against diseases. And it is NOT always harmless. People and animals can and do die from getting vaccines. People who are otherwise healthy and normal can develop life-changing or life-threatening conditions, or have terrible reactions to vaccines. It's not common, but it happens, and I can not blame people who do not want to take the risk. At my job I have seen people's dogs die from routine shots due to Immune Mediated Hemolytic Anemia. It's rare. In three years I have only seen it happen twice. But if someone is truly afraid to take the risk, I don't think anyone has the right to argue.

I'll have to disagree. Not vaccinating is not only putting the person that doesn't vaccinate themselves at risk but also the vulnerable people around them, like newborn babies for example. Diseases we thought disappeared are coming back due to the rise of people not vaccinating.

 

Ninja'd by Fuzzbucket, heh.

Edited by flitzthesoulreaper

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I'll have to disagree. Not vaccinating is not only putting the person that doesn't vaccinate themselves at risk but also the vulnerable people around them, like newborn babies for example. Diseases we thought disappeared are coming back due to the rise of people not vaccinating.

 

Ninja'd by Fuzzbucket, heh.

So you would force someone to get a vaccination even if it might kill them?

 

Because it always comes down to personal choice. If someone is that scared of getting vaccinated or not vaccinating their kids, they should always have that choice. I will never be a proponent of forcing any person to undergo a medical procedure that has a risk of killing them. Anyone could be that vulnerable person you are talking about. Just because they don't yet know if they have vaccine allergies isn't a good enough reason to try forcing them into getting the vaccine. I never said that vaccinating shouldn't promoted or recommended or that it shouldn't be required by schools. All I'm saying is that I find it disgusting that some people treat those who don't vaccinate like their are stupid and/or irresponsible. They have a right to make the choices they want to about their own health. No one else should be able to take that away from them.

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I've never taken anything fancy but my schizophrenic friend takes Lithium and sometimes haldol. Have no idea what it does for him though..

 

 

Edit: I took adderall when I was in middle school but was taken off because I became extremely depressed and malnourished.

Edited by GhostChilli

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I really want my HPV vaccine. But I never get the flu vaccination, for whatever reason. I have yet to actually get it though, so I'm pretty indifferent to different types of vaccinations.

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So you would force someone to get a vaccination even if it might kill them?

 

Because it always comes down to personal choice. If someone is that scared of getting vaccinated or not vaccinating their kids, they should always have that choice. I will never be a proponent of forcing any person to undergo a medical procedure that has a risk of killing them. Anyone could be that vulnerable person you are talking about. Just because they don't yet know if they have vaccine allergies isn't a good enough reason to try forcing them into getting the vaccine. I never said that vaccinating shouldn't promoted or recommended or that it shouldn't be required by schools. All I'm saying is that I find it disgusting that some people treat those who don't vaccinate like their are stupid and/or irresponsible. They have a right to make the choices they want to about their own health. No one else should be able to take that away from them.

I did mention that some people CANNOT safely be vaccinated. Which is even more reason for everyone who can be to be done. To protect those with suppressed immune systems and the like.

 

But fear of vaccination is not the same thing as your life being at risk. I'm not into forcing people, but I would not see fear as a valid reason to avoid it. We all have fears we have to overcome if we are to live among others. And that VILE Andrew Wakefield (later struck off from the medical register, I think) who stirred up the MMR scare - which was TOTALLY unfounded and he was found to have been paid by drug companies to say what he did - has made some parents ludicrously paranoid. When I was a child, I don't recall any parental fears of vaccination of any kind. We had all seen too many people die of polio. And we were all done against smallpox as a matter of course - and that is now virtually gone from the world - as a direct result of mass vaccination.

 

So I would certainly support a school not admitting an unvaccinated child - if you are that scared, home-school them, for instance. (I believe in some US states this is already the case...)

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So, just wondering, but what are the odds of dying in a car accident vs. a severely life-threatening reaction from various vaccinations? Since I'm pretty sure most people who are opposed to vaccines aren't opposed to using cars to travel around and all.

 

If the stats I found are even remotely accurate, you have a VASTLY greater chance of dying from a car crash than vaccination-related complications. Greater chance of dying from a lightning strike, too.

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So you would force someone to get a vaccination even if it might kill them?

Any vaccine - or medical intervention as a whole - carries a chance of an adverse reaction. Of course we're not going to force a vaccine on someone with a known allergy, but I am going to strongly recommend they take a vaccine for the more common/deadly diseases - not just for their sake, but for the sake of herd immunity.

 

Take diphtheria, a rather painful disease with a 5 - 10% fatality rate, and those who survive can be left with inflammed heart muscle or peripheral neuropathy, and the skin lesions can take months to heal and in themselves introduce another route of infection that can go horribly wrong (gangrene, sepsis, etc).

 

Vaccine side-effects and their commonality; seizures (0.007%), fever (0.006%), long-term brain damage or seizure conditions less than one in every million.

 

I'll take those second odds every time, especially given that seizures in children are a bit more common than in adults and children bounce back a bit better.

 

Now, you are welcome to argue about the incidence rate of diphtheria (only 2 cases in the USA since 2000, the second of which was in 2003) and say how the chances are we don't need the vaccination, but this is a dangerous argument. The reason the incidence rate is so low is *because* of vaccination; without the vaccine, diphtheria would still be a major issue (as shown in the former USSR and some developing nations) and given the fatality rate and that it is easily spread (direct touch or breathing it in) makes it quite a nasty disease.

 

One person in every few thousand refusing the vaccine? We might be able to cope. But the massive trends in recent decades of refusing vaccines as the public perception is that the diseases are no longer threats has led to cases of (deadly) resurgence of many of these otherwise-easily preventable diseases. So unless there is a clinical indication as to why that person should not be vaccinated I will always do my best to convince a patient otherwise.

 

I've never taken anything fancy but my schizophrenic friend takes Lithium and sometimes haldol. Have no idea what it does for him though..

 

Edit: I took adderall when I was in middle school but was taken off because I became extremely depressed and malnourished.

Lithium is used as prophylaxis and treatment of mania, prophylaxis for bipolar disorder, and as co-treatment in depression for those who do not react completely to normal antidepressant treatment. It should only be given under specialist advice and under constant review, and ideally not as a long-term treatment.

 

Haloperidol is a first-generation antipsychotic drug used to calm patients down as a short-term measure during an acute episode of their underlying psychological condition - which can be anything from mania to depression to brain damage to delirium. It is not as heavy a sedative as other drugs in the group, and the idea isn't to sedate someone with haloperidol but rather calm the negative symptoms of their condition, thus this is also a medication to be careful with as an overdose can lead to massive trouble.

 

Kage: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm ; https://vaers.hhs.gov/data/index

Edited by Kestra15

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as someone who did not respond (8 vaccinations) to Hepatitis-B, I can only say: I am glad that many other people are vaccinated. smile.gif

 

Anything that can develop into a pandemic with deadly outcome for everyone involved should, in my opinion, forced as a vaccination. Personal choice is nice and all, but it does not work at all at many levels of protection for a human society as a whole.

 

Vaccination is just a base example, there are other a lot more common examples, that do basically the same thing: restrict your choice for the sake of the whole thing. (laws, money, immigration)

 

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On a more personal note:

 

Citalopram rocks. It also sucks.

 

I'm now about three weeks into my step-down, I've gone from 20mg to 10mg. I'm actually feeling as good as ever, which is the whole point of stepping down; I think that I've resolved the worst of my depression. I enjoy life, my lover, my job, my degree and my friends, and I've got rid of the major stressor in my life and feel better for it. Unlike this time last year where I went utterly mad on the drugs, I also seem to be holding out a lot better.

 

Mostly. My dreams are rotten. They're the kind of nightmares that are much more insidious - it's taking my real-life anxieties and multiplying them ten-fold, forcing me through night after night of some of my bigger fears and hates in quasi-realistic examples - so there is continuity and physics in my dreams. My ex-fiancee is appearing a lot at the moment, and a lot of my more negative moments in life keep cropping back up time and again to remind me of what I did wrong - or, in my opinion, what I could have done better (since I do not believe that I have ever failed in life, only not succeeded). It's not causing me much stress to be honest but it does mean every morning I have to take a deep breath and remember that I need to keep being awesome.

 

And I reflect a lot more on lost relationships as well the last few weeks. A girl that I almost had a relationship with (if she hadn't gone Mudkip-crazy over an innocent remark) keeps floating through my thoughts, and again my ex-fiancee keeps making appearances now and again. I don't regret losing those people (since I am in love with my lover and life in general) but it does make me a little melancholy at the moment.

 

Slightly odd though that my ex doesn't appear at all though in my dreams or crosses my thoughts, that it is still the woman who cheated on me and left me nearly ten years ago who crops up.

 

And being a little ill this week isn't helping tongue.gif

Edited by Kestra15

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One person in every few thousand refusing the vaccine? We might be able to cope. But the massive trends in recent decades of refusing vaccines as the public perception is that the diseases are no longer threats has led to cases of (deadly) resurgence of many of these otherwise-easily preventable diseases. So unless there is a clinical indication as to why that person should not be vaccinated I will always do my best to convince a patient otherwise.

Don't get me wrong. I recommend and administer vaccinations to pets every day. Unfortunately there is a much higher incidence of vaccine reactions in animals than people. Our hospital sees approximately 300 patients per week, and a majority of them are in for vaccines. Perhaps one pet each week will report back with a mild vaccine reaction, such as vomiting or diarrhea, fever, facial swelling or hives. These usually don't require any treatment beyond an oral antihistamine. Perhaps one pet each month will have a reaction severe enough to require hospitalization for a single day. But twice in my career so far I have watched otherwise healthy pets die from simple vaccinations. This hasn't changed my opinion that vaccines are inherently good. I recommend them every day. I provide my clients with literature supporting the use of vaccines to prevent their pets from contracting horrible diseases. But at the end of the day, no one can deny that there is an inherent risk in any medical procedure. Fearing vaccinations does not make someone evil or stupid or irresponsible. Fear is legitimate. As an act in itself, refusing to vaccinate yourself or your kids or your pets is not a bad thing. There are ways to live unvaccinated while still reducing the risk to other people or animals. It's not the people who do not vaccinate who are a problem, it's the people who do not vaccinate and do not take any other precautions to prevent the spread of disease, and in my opinion this is a very important distinction to make. The attitude of "let's wait and see if you're allergic to the first vaccine before we choose not to do it" proves the majority of people/pets to tolerate vaccines well, but what do you say to the family of people/children/animals who die? Sorry for your bad luck? Where is your sympathy? Is this just a matter of "survival of the fittest?"

 

I find it hard to take anyone seriously when they are militant about vaccinated if they have not been the one to present the body of a dead pet (or child) to the devastated family and when confronted over and over with the question "what could we have done to avoid this?" and the only honest answer is "not vaccinate". Can you honestly blame a family like this for choosing to not vaccinate again when this happens to them? The numbers don't matter when that 0.001% is death. Fearing death is the strongest instinct we have. All you can do is educate and let people choose for themselves. Trying to force your opinions on your clients/patients is one of the biggest mistakes medical professionals can make.

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I hate medicines of all kinds. I hate vaccines and injection. I'm scared of the needle and anything sharp. Pills and tablets are hard to swallow, etc.

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I find it hard to take anyone seriously when they are militant about vaccinated if they have not been the one to present the body of a dead pet (or child) to the devastated family and when confronted over and over with the question "what could we have done to avoid this?" and the only honest answer is "not vaccinate". Can you honestly blame a family like this for choosing to not vaccinate again when this happens to them? The numbers don't matter when that 0.001% is death. Fearing death is the strongest instinct we have. All you can do is educate and let people choose for themselves. Trying to force your opinions on your clients/patients is one of the biggest mistakes medical professionals can make.

You can't say that though. The child could later have died OF measles if unvaccinated, instead of died from the measles vaccine. Possibilities don't work for this stuff.

 

And I would do that telling the parents thing willingly. I do feel that strongly, and I would have said to them that their child might have died of the vaccine, yes, or of the disease it was designed to prevent, or might have died of something else next week; that life is full of what ifs.

 

As nothing is predictable, NOTHING, you cannot actually say the only thing you could have done would have been not to vaccinate.

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As nothing is predictable, NOTHING, you cannot actually say the only thing you could have done would have been not to vaccinate.

This.

 

We cannot predict reactions to vaccines until someone takes them and has the reaction. It's why when you vaccinate you should have at the very least an Epipen to hand.

 

If we lived in eternal fear of drug reactions then no-one would ever be vaccinated, no-one would ever start a drug regime, anything of the sort through that fear. We don't know what will happen if someone takes a drug for the first time; what we do know is what they're at risk at if they don't, and what the chances/possible reactions are if we do.

 

And don't ever play the 'standing over a dead body' card on me. My experience includes pre-hospital and critical care nursing; I have stood over more dead bodies in a week than most people do in a lifetime. Frankly, explaining the cause of death was an adverse drug reaction is infinitely easier than suicide or domestic abuse or ALD.

Edited by Kestra15

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Frankly, explaining the cause of death was an adverse drug reaction is infinitely easier than suicide or domestic abuse or ALD.

I really, really like this sentence, and I want to expand on it.

 

The *majority* of people who take medication, any type of medication (including vaccinations) are warned of the risks and possible side effects beforehand. I'm on anti-depressants where it's legally obligated that I be told that a potential side effect is suicidal thoughts/feelings. My mom takes blood pressure pills that warn of side effects that includes things such as *stroke* and *liver damage*.

 

When I got my flu vaccination, the nurse explained the risks, including death. (imo, if you ever are given/offered any medication and the doctor/nurse *doesn't* explain risks before the medicine goes into your body, ASK dangit.)

 

Basically what I'm saying is, most of the people who get vaccinated or take medication do it with at least some knowledge of the possibilities. On the other hand, people who die from a car crash, or a beating, etc, *did not know* and *could not predict*. A family who is told that their loved one died from a drug reaction already knew it was a possibility; the other examples are *much* harder to explain and much harder to hear.

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Once again I am happy to be in the UK:

 

http://www.educateinspirechange.org/2014/0...es-talking.html

Why is ANYONE against Obamacare ?? I Do Not Get It !

 

Well, I do, sadly. "I don't want MY money paying for OTHER people". That's OK (for you) till YOU are the guy who dies at 27 because YOUR insurance lifetime entitlement has run out.

 

Ugh.

Edited by fuzzbucket

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I personally am anti-vax. I have researched what is in them, and would rather get sick than put some of the things that are in vaccines willingly into my body or the bodies of my children.

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I personally am anti-vax. I have researched what is in them, and would rather get sick than put some of the things that are in vaccines willingly into my body or the bodies of my children.

Yes, they contain dead samples of the thing they try to prevent you from getting. I really hope your children will not continue this "trend" after you're gone.

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I personally am anti-vax. I have researched what is in them, and would rather get sick than put some of the things that are in vaccines willingly into my body or the bodies of my children.

I'd rather have the dead things in them than the live things that I could catch instead.

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I'd rather have the dead things in them than the live things that I could catch instead.

That is fine for you. But at the end of the day you should not be able to make that decision for other people. Everyone should have the option to weigh the risks for themselves and make a decision that best suits them. Supporting any kind of legislature that takes that option away from other people is saying that you think you know better than them. This is exactly the same kind of thinking that goes into anti-abortion laws, or the requirements for forcing women to undergo counseling before getting an abortion. It's also the same kind of thinking that goes into eugenics.

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But when you decide not to get a vaccine, you are making a choice that can have severe negative impacts on others who can't get vaccines for health reasons. Not only are you putting yourself at risk for the disease/illness, you're putting at risk people who can't physically afford to get that disease (or the vaccine). You're at much greater risk at contacting the disease than being on the receiving end of the more severe negative impacts the vaccine possibly has. D:

 

Comparing a pro-vaccination stance to eugenics is, uh, like, a really, really slippery slope. Vaccines save lives. Eugenics is murder and forced sterilization. I get that your point is that it's forced, but this is really, really extreme. =\

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