Medicine

[Lila]

What should I say to my parents, who are blaming Obamacare because their insurance providers are changing their policies to be less inclusive?

[Obscure_Trash]

What should I say to my parents, who are blaming Obamacare because their insurance providers are changing their policies to be less inclusive?

Tbh, nothing. It's not likely that any logic would really get through to them if they have a stance like that. If you really want to get into it with them, you could ask how insurance specifically changing their policies to be less inclusive is a knock against ACA, which provides more people than ever with healthcare. Or ask why it's the ACA's fault that insurance is trying to get out of giving people healthcare.

[Syaoransbear]

What should I say to my parents, who are blaming Obamacare because their insurance providers are changing their policies to be less inclusive?

The insurance company made the decision, they should be blaming them. Obamacare didn't force the insurance company to be a greedy money obsessed company. You should show your parents the article that lists the salaries of a bunch of health insurance CEOs.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Syaoransbear

[Fuzzbucket]

But when you decide not to get a vaccine, you are making a choice that can have severe negative impacts on others who can't get vaccines for health reasons. Not only are you putting yourself at risk for the disease/illness, you're putting at risk people who can't physically afford to get that disease (or the vaccine). You're at much greater risk at contacting the disease than being on the receiving end of the more severe negative impacts the vaccine possibly has. D:

 

Comparing a pro-vaccination stance to eugenics is, uh, like, a really, really slippery slope. Vaccines save lives. Eugenics is murder and forced sterilization. I get that your point is that it's forced, but this is really, really extreme. =\

This.

 

The insurance company made the decision, they should be blaming them. Obamacare didn't force the insurance company to be a greedy money obsessed company. You should show your parents the article that lists the salaries of a bunch of health insurance CEOs.

 

Also this.

Edited January 9, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[Snickie]

I agree that healthcare in the United States is messed up and needs fixing. However, I do not believe that ObamaCare is the way to do it.

 

ObamaCare did force companies to be more frugal and less inclusive, at least, from the way I see it.

 

Take a large restaurant company that is self-insured and offers to each of their employees great and affordable health insurance from the day they're hired (yes, these do/did exist). But, as a restaurant company, the vast majority of their employees are young servers and hostesses and bussers in their late teens or twenties and who believe they're invincible and that they don't need health insurance. Used to, it was fine and dandy that they chose not to purchase health insurance, and the company wasn't forced to pay penalties because their employees chose not to have health insurance. When ObamaCare was passed, the company preemptively got ready for the funds they would lose because of the expectation that many of their young 20-something year old employees probably still wouldn't purchase healthcare (because they were of the mentality that they didn't need it) which would force the company, under the requirements of Obamacare, to pay large penalties. Healthcare premiums went up tremendously for current enrollees so that a large percentage ended up downgrading their health insurance in order to not lose a sizeable chunk of money from what they brought home in their paycheck. Healthcare premiums went up because the demand (people who are willing and able to buy them) went up. This all took place in anticipation, before ObamaCare was fully implemented. And now, even if it were to suddenly be fully repealed, chances are costs wouldn't go all the way back down (and not just because of inflation).

 

There were companies experimenting with making most/all of their employees only able to work part-time in order to cut losses by not being forced to pay as high of penalties for their uninsured employees. Of course it was met with bad publicity and falling stocks so it didn't pass, but still.

 

I don't deny that health insurance and restaurant companies are greedy capitalists. They are because they have to be because that's the kind of economy we run here in America. If they don't make a profit, how do they expect to keep themselves running and their families fed? I agree that some of the higher level employees go overboard with their own salaries, but it's their money and without them we wouldn't have these options.

 

I'm aware that ObamaCare was implemented for the benefit of those who were unemployed or could not afford to purchase health insurance. However, the penalties people are forced to pay because they/their peers choose not to have health insurance because they don't want it is what people have against ObamaCare.

 

The rest of the population is forced to pay for them through higher premiums (and taxes), which leads to less money in their own pockets, which leads to them cutting back on what they spend which leads to a slower economy.

 

ObamaCare isn't even affordable for some people anyway, so some of them are just screwed.

 

 

 

And that's my ObamaCare beef.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Snickie

[Momo]

Medicine is.. a fairly complicated subject for me. I lean here and there on what is necessary for survival in this time ( the society and current century plays a huge part in what we need and don't need, you know ) depending on the type of medicine.

Beforehand, I should say that I was determined at being a pre-med student, but I decided to take a different route with science as my main focus - genetics, understanding how everything works, and so forth. I plan on going back multiple times for degrees I'd like to earn.

 

The reason I love science is not the typical "lust to reach a greater superiority for humankind," but rather I simply enjoying why nature is the way it is - going back to the roots of things. I have a lot of Native American blood, and the elders of my family have always kept things as "natural" as possible, but within reason.

That being said, I do have all my vaccinations. I can't imagine not getting them - for other people, I'm sure it works and they're just fine, but.. yes.

For me, familiar with the works of the body and science, subjecting yourself to the thing you're trying to prevent is typically a very effective way of getting an immunity over it - the body is better at more things than the general public expects. It builds an immunity and fights back once it is subjected to a certain foreign body for long enough.

 

I can understand how parents can be ill informed about that sort of thing and point the finger so easily at vaccines once they "look up" what a vaccination really is. I usually find that in order to really appreciate things like vaccinations, anti-venom and such, the person really has to have some kind of affinity or passion for health, science or otherwise a pretty big open mind. It's natural to just look at a vaccine and say "Whoa! They're putting the bad thing in my child to make her better?" and yes, my mother was equally concerned about it too when she learned that, but still gave us the vaccines.

 

Vaccines work. There's a reason that they're necessary, and there's a reason that you are forced to take SO MANY vaccines when visiting a country like Japan - they know that foreigners are capable of bringing in illnesses that they have NO toleration for because their bodies do not face them naturally in their habitat.

Just like there's a reason that many people who go to Japan report getting very sick in the first week - they instantly get common illnesses in Japan that natives are partially immune to. Their bodies have a tolerance.

 

I'm sorry to the people who see vaccines as only a choice, or a bad thing, or useless and a child can be raised well without them but I'm afraid that these people know what they're talking about a little better than you do.

Vaccines save lives.

You getting a vaccine saves your life and other lives, too. Common contagion facts.

 

By being subject to the foreign body, you gain a tolerance to it. We're always surrounded by influenza and the common cold - we simply combat it constantly, everyday, though we may get one of the two especially in winter when we've been out in the cold due to vessel constriction which makes the blood travel slower and, naturally, the white blood cells cannot spread as easily to heavily guard us. There's no vaccine for the common cold because its makeup is too simple, but even still our body knows how to dodge around getting a cold every few weeks. But for the illnesses that are more vicious than the common cold, we have vaccines for them, which subjects us to the thing without giving us the actual illness. So, in the end, we get the immunity without the illness.

 

Whether store bought or prescribed medicines however, I take as little as possible. I don't drug myself with cold syrups or drown out all pain when I have a headache. When I have a headache - I sleep. When I have a cold - I sleep. When I pull a muscle - I sleep, and then try to exercise gradually or wrap it tightly to keep away swelling if present after the injury. And no, all that sleeping doesn't indicate that I'm lazy - I recognize that the body recovers best when sleeping. If I'm given prescribed medicines I will take them, but I'm not going to go in with a bad back and beg for medicines for something that can be healed up with daily yoga or physical therapy.

 

Because I do believe that people of America typically pass away at much younger ages due to all the constant exposure to medicines. Naturally, don't be ignorant - take the medicines you need to be taking, but it's not necessary to drown ourselves in cough syrups or headache pills just for a little bit of comfort.

 

 

Another example is the rabies shot for pets. My mother lived out in the country when she was young - her family owned a great many animals and kept stray cats and the kittens that were born there. They drank unskimmed milk right out of the cow, didn't much mind washing their crops before eating it, and their dogs and cats never had any rabies shots. They all coexisted without the fear of rabies, and no animal ever contracted it. So? Does that mean I don't have to give my cat or dog a rabies shot? Or should I still give it to them? Should I waste my money giving them something that is just generally preventable, or should I give it to them because I love them and I just want to make sure that they're not going to get some horrible thing? When I got my kitten, my mother's exact words about vaccinating him were "if you can't find a good vet, don't get him the shots. We lived with cats all our lives in the country and we never worried about stuff like rabies."

[HeatherMarie]

And Momo wins ALL THE INTERNETS for that post!!! Wow. That was awesome. And seriously informative. .... I wish we could make sure *everyone* posting in this thread reads that.

[7Deadly$ins]

...What vaccines are required for Japan? I have never had to take anything outside of the normal vaccination plan. You don't have to get any special vaccinations. Japanese Encephilitis is the ONLY thing that is different and you definitely DON'T need that vaccination unless you're planning to go and grow rice in Okinawa, maybe. It isn't even recommended to travelers who are going to be in only cities like Tokyo. I'm also not really sure what "common illnesses" you're referring to when you talk about foreigners getting sick. I'm sorry but when you say "a country like Japan" I really don't understand what you mean -- because a country like Japan doesn't really require any special health considerations.

 

As far as your last paragraph, about rabies... I don't really understand how any of the things like eating unwashed crops or drinking unpasteurized milk is supposed to be not "living in fear of rabies" since you can't get rabies from any of those things.

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't think that post referred to vaccines for Japan, simply to the fact that when you go somewhere unfamiliar, you catch all the bugs you aren't used to. Just as when we visit my grandchildren - within the same country we live in, we catch THEIR coughs and colds which are different from the ones we catch at home, 250 miles away - and when we go to another city, the perfectly safe water supply can give us the trots as it is different from the water our gut has become accustomed to.

 

And actually - there is rabies in Japan, and a needle against that might not be a bad idea.

 

For the record - about rabies transmission:

The route of infection is usually, but not always, by a bite.

 

I'm pretty sure it can be transmitted through contact with an infected animal's urine if you have even a small cut; when I worked for a doctor, one of the people who had to have the needles had been infected through removing bat crap (inevitably also steeped in urine) from an attic; the specialists were very worried about him.

 

Also:

Inhalation of aerosolized rabies virus is also a potential non-bite route of exposure, but with the exception of laboratory workers, most people are unlikely to encounter an aerosol version of the rabies virus.

 

I have no idea where milk comes into it - except that untreated milk from a cow with natural immunity MIGHT help convey immunity to anyone drinkignit.

 

 

 

[Ripan]

For curiosity's sake I went on the net looking for reasons why people might be unwilling to vaccinate because of what a vaccine is made of. I only ended up stumbling into very few anti-vaccination sites arguing that there is formaldehyde, mercury and aluminium in vaccines which is presented with a lot of dangerous side-effects upon exposure to the human body. But all those sites overall seemed very conspiracy oriented so I couldn't take them seriously. But maybe this is what people are vary of about the contents of a vaccine?

Edited January 11, 2014 by Ripan

[Fuzzbucket]

Well, maybe - but then, look at what is in the medicines you have to take when you GET all these delightful diseases (never mind what the diseases themselves do to you.) There are far FAR more adverse effects (and even deaths) from medicines taken to treat illness than from vaccines and immunisations.

[HeatherMarie]

Not to mention that trace amounts of aluminum can be found in *many* everyday products, ranging from town water supplies to many different cooking/baking ingredients (source: Straight Dope). So using that as a reason to not get vaccinated is... well... *shrugs*

 

And mercury can be present in many different types of fish that people eat, thermometers, florescent lamps, and more. According to epa.org,

"EPA has calculated a reference dose (RfD) level for methylmercury. An RfD is EPA’s estimate of the maximum acceptable daily exposure to humans that is not likely to cause harmful effects during a lifetime (see a more detailed definition in the box at right). EPA's RfD for methylmercury, last revised in 2001, is currently 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day."

 

... Per day. I think, even without being awesome at amount-conversions, that I can safely say that one or two vaccinations are not going to exceed that amount.

 

So anotherwords, most of that scary stuff that's in vaccinations are not really that scary, and occur in day-to-day life anyways.

[Fuzzbucket]

Almost all antiperspirants are aluminium based, now that you mention it...

[Ansela Jonla]

I'm pro-vaccine. I've had all of mine, and if I go to a country that requires extra ones, then I'll have those as well. The only one I don't get is the flu vaccine, because I can't afford it.

 

If I ever have kids, which isn't in my plans, I will vaccinate them as well. It is the most sensible route, to me.

 

As for everything else, I try to avoid taking anything unnecessary. The only time I take painkillers is when my gum infection is flaring up again, and then only until the antibiotics reduce the swelling enough for the pain to go away. Hopefully a start will be made on sorting out the cause of the infections, an impacted wisdom tooth that the emergency dentist won't touch, next week. The semi-permanent medication for my acid reflux is something I would not do without any more, since I don't enjoy feeling like I'm about to vomit pure stomach acid 24/7.

[KageSora]

Actually, if I'm reading that post right, the reference to Japan was that you need the vaccines to lessen the odds that you'll bring the illness into the other country?

 

Which, sort of makes sense. I mean, if you can catch an illness in another country (and bring it back and spread it at home) then you can very easily bring an illness abroad with you and spread it there.

[7Deadly$ins]

Actually, if I'm reading that post right, the reference to Japan was that you need the vaccines to lessen the odds that you'll bring the illness into the other country?

 

Which, sort of makes sense. I mean, if you can catch an illness in another country (and bring it back and spread it at home) then you can very easily bring an illness abroad with you and spread it there.

Even so, none of the vaccines are unusual. Japan doesn't require you to have any certain vaccines before coming into their country that our outside of the norm, though they will health screen for things like yellow fever IF there is an outbreak. You don't need any special vaccinations to go to Japan, not for the protection of you or for the protection of Japanese people.

 

As for rabies, it's true that Japan is not a rabies free zone, but if that logic is enough to get a rabies shot then Americans should be getting them anyway. Rabies hasn't seen any human cases in Japan in over fifty years, whereas America gets a whole lot more than that. Japan is considered a rabies free zone, because the only rabies they have is bat rabies (which rarely infects humans, and is a different rabies strain than other types of rabies.) As a result, importing animals to Japan is very difficult because they don't want any outside rabies being introduced.

[KageSora]

Even so, none of the vaccines are unusual. Japan doesn't require you to have any certain vaccines before coming into their country that our outside of the norm, though they will health screen for things like yellow fever IF there is an outbreak. You don't need any special vaccinations to go to Japan, not for the protection of you or for the protection of Japanese people.

Oh I know--I didn't have to get any additional vaccines than what I've already gotten when I went to Japan a few years back. I was just pointing out that I think they meant protection for the people from foreigners, not the other way around.

[Bex]

And actually - there is rabies in Japan, and a needle against that might not be a bad idea.

 

For the record - about rabies transmission:

 

 

I'm pretty sure it can be transmitted through contact with an infected animal's urine if you have even a small cut; when I worked for a doctor, one of the people who had to have the needles had been infected through removing bat crap (inevitably also steeped in urine) from an attic; the specialists were very worried about him.

 

Also:

 

 

I have no idea where milk comes into it - except that untreated milk from a cow with natural immunity MIGHT help convey immunity to anyone drinkignit.

No, no no!

This is all so false I don't even know where to begin.

 

I work at an animal hospital so dealing with rabies transmission is a daily thing for me, and in Texas we see more cases of rabies than any other state in the US. I have had rabies pre-exposure vaccines and post-exposure vaccines, and they are not fun at all! They are not the kind of vaccines people get for the hell of it.

 

Rabies is only transmitted through saliva or mucous membranes. It is not transmitted through urine, blood, or feces.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/exposure/materials.html

 

Rabies is almost always transmitted via bites, mostly from small carnivorous animals such as dogs, cats, coyotes, foxes, skunks, raccoons, and bats. It can be found in any mammal, but not in birds, reptiles, fish, etc.

 

The specialists you are referring to were most likely concerned about their bat-crap-loving patient because of all the other complications that can arise from cleaning up feces for a living. The sheer amount of ammonia present in animal droppings along is enough to cause a person to pass out. You can contract a wide variety of infections and parasites too. But not rabies unless you come into contact with saliva.

 

I'm not sure where the unpasteurized milk thing comes in either. You can't get rabies from milk. However, cows do pick up rabies more often than you might think.

 

 

[Fuzzbucket]

Rabies is only transmitted through saliva or mucous membranes. It is not transmitted through urine, blood, or feces.

 

http://www.cdc.gov/rabies/exposure/materials.html

 

Rabies is almost always transmitted via bites, mostly from small carnivorous animals such as dogs, cats, coyotes, foxes, skunks, raccoons, and bats. It can be found in any mammal, but not in birds, reptiles, fish, etc.

ALMOST always.

 

Gary WAS infected; it showed up in a blood test titre (they didn't start the shots immediately, as they reckoned he wasn't infected, too as one would have expected him not to be based on exactly this info - that's why they were so worried; they thought they might have left the shots too late) - and he did not actually come across a bat. If I knew where he was now, I'd ask him to come over ! I guess the bats may have drooled over their droppings too, and he contacted saliva that way but he didn't come across a bat and he was NOT bitten. (Could saliva not, rarely, go through the system into the faeces, though ? I have no idea HOW it happened but it did.)

 

But absolutely yes to cows getting rabies - we lived in a farming area in a rabies hot spot in Southern Ontario and there was usually one kid in the school having the shots at any given time, for a while, having been bitten by a cow. Or a groundhog... So it not possible (I didn't say it was the case) for milk to convey immunity if a cow is naturally immune ? That was only mentioned because someone mentioned drinking untreated milk...

Edited January 13, 2014 by fuzzbucket

[PiccoloRose]

My daughter has a medical exemption from vaccinations because she nearly died from a severe allergic reaction to the first one that she received. She has many severe allergies that have caused several life-threatening reactions.

 

She also can not take most medications of any kind because of her allergies. She has been hospitalized due to reactions to commonly prescribed medications.

 

The school she attends has several other kids there who have medical vaccination exemptions on file. It is one of the few private schools in the area that will take children with exemptions. Private schools are not required to take them, whereas the public schools here are not allowed to refuse children with a valid exemption form. But the school she is in has a high number of children with severe allergies, a nurse who is top rate, and a staff that is very attentive. It is somewhere that I can feel safe sending her.

 

And I have had a parent from there (she has since moved her child to a different school) try to get my daughter and all the other children with medical vaccination exemptions kicked out. All of our children could quite literally die from vaccinations. This parent told me to my face that I should just let my daughter die the next time she was having a severe allergic reaction because it would be better for HER child for mine to be dead.

 

None of us are trying to "rage against the system" or be "trendy". We are simply trying to keep our severely allergic children alive. We know the risks of them not being vaccinated. We also know from horrific first-hand experience the risks of them being vaccinated.

 

I, myself, have severe allergies and there is also very little in the way of medication that I can take. Just last year I had an anaphylactic reaction to an antibiotic I was prescribed for pneumonia. Not the first time that has happened, but with a different drug family.

 

People often misunderstand our reasons for not vaccinating. We have no fear of Autism. We're not "hippies". The reason myself, and the other parents I am personally friends with who have medical exemptions for their children, do not vaccinate now is because we DID get our children vaccinated. And then learned after the fact that we shouldn't have. But had no way of knowing that until after it happened.

[Htt71]

Before I begin, let me start with, UGHHHHH... Why did I let my self get sucked into another debate forum?

*clears throat*

 

Anyways, vaccines are VERY beneficial to humans. As long as you have antibodies you probably won't develop that disease, and it's been used for ages, hell, the needle isn't the only "vaccine" used. Remember chicken pox parties? The things your parents used to talk about when they heard the shingles virus is inside of you if you've had chicken pox? Yeah, I and most others could call this an honorary vaccine due to its similar nature in trying to build a defense.

 

Anyways, vaccines are useful to people, BUT, they are also choices. You CAN CHOOSE to opt out of that h1n1 vaccine... If you really want to. Just bear in mind that your workplace or school probably won't allow you to attend until you do to avoid spreading of it, you would be at a higher risk of getting the virus, and (shocker) if you get it, you have to suffer the symptoms. So, is it a choice in my eyes, YES! Is it a good choice, YES!

 

After all, it has have become integrated into life for us, you have a vaccine for everything, a medicine for that. So please get a vaccine, people. Get a vaccine. And if you don't, please wear a mask when you enter my den.

 

Thanks for readin' all!

[Obscure_Trash]

-snip-

Hey, PiccoloRose! Thanks for sharing your story - and sorry to hear about your daughter's serious allergies. <3

 

I think a lot of us here (I know I am) are pushing for healthy people to get vaccinated exactly to help protect people and children like your daughter. I'm sorry that you've been told horrible things like your child should die for the sake of others. That just isn't right. =\

[PiccoloRose]

Hey, PiccoloRose! Thanks for sharing your story - and sorry to hear about your daughter's serious allergies. <3

 

I think a lot of us here (I know I am) are pushing for healthy people to get vaccinated exactly to help protect people and children like your daughter. I'm sorry that you've been told horrible things like your child should die for the sake of others. That just isn't right. =\

Thank you SockPuppet! Sadly, it is just how some people feel. And it is how some people will always feel. We try to just keep on keeping on.

[Shadoe666]

I honestly hate vaccines, the needles scare me. I don't like normal medicine, I prefer natural herbs and remedies, but that's just my opinion. I also don't refuse pills and other medical breakthroughs, bandages and stitches are better than cobwebs, and antibiotics are a must when I get hurt, so I'm basically standing with a foot in each camp. I feel good and don't get sick often, so, whatever works!

[7Deadly$ins]

Just about no one LIKES getting vaccines. That isn't the point.