Prostitution

[Rosedamai]

Looked to me like Ashojj was speaking AS a younger player, so he can say that younger players have an issue with the thread because that's what he is. Which means, perhaps, that he lacks the parental supervision he ought to have while cruising the Internet, and should learn sooner (and gently) rather than later (and harshly) that the Internet is not his oyster and forums attached to dragon collecting games are not necessarily kid-friendly.

In that case, I HAD invalidated his experiences, so I do feel sorry about that, but yes I agree that he needs parental supervision. Sorry!

[Ashojj]

Dont worry I discovered this earlier

 

Seriously though that monkey story is hilarious.

[zorua9]

I am in Australia :3, i don't know if it is or not, but i don't want it to be legal, cause women/men get raped and possibly killed, it should become illegal if Australia hasn't already made it illegal.

[St. Jimmy]

I am in Australia :3, i don't know if it is or not, but i don't want it to be legal, cause women/men get raped and possibly killed, it should become illegal if Australia hasn't already made it illegal.

Prostitution is consensual. And anyone can be raped or killed regardless of profession.

[Zovesta]

-snip-

Autobiography of a Geisha is a more accurate picture of that life, IMO. Even though they're still throwing around "geisha" rather than the proper term.

 

I've already said what I wanted on prostitution.

 

Edit: Some stuff on the monkey thing. ZMEScience link.

Google search. =P

Edited October 24, 2012 by Zovesta

[kiffren]

I'm closing this temporarily while I discuss it with other mods.

 

Sorry for the delay. Opening it back up. ^^ Just make sure this is about the morality of it, not the act itself.

Edited October 29, 2012 by kiffren

[Aurvandil]

both prostitution and pornography are sinful and perversive, these people are often humiliated and forced to do things they don't want to, fortunately it's illegal in my country, if you ask me i'd say that everyone must have the right to do whatever they want but if it depended on me this perversion would never be legal, wouldn't even exist, someone may come with the typical liberal talk, but tell me, what good this lifestyle brings to these people? nothing, they always end up in a bad situation with a std or worse, i'd rather have a low paid job or even starve to death than become a prostitute, this is just my opinion though. about the black market and human trafficking issues, the solution isn't legalize prostitution but fight those criminals, no mercy zero tolerance, who does this sort of thing, traffics humans, are the worst kind of... i don't even know what to call these people, if we can call them people, in eastern europe there's a big black market of sex trafficking and women slavery, i doubt if legalize prostitution would solve anything

[HeatherMarie]

both prostitution and pornography are sinful and perversive, these people are often humiliated and forced to do things they don't want to

And where are you getting your information from? Prostitution is one thing, but to lump pornography in there and say that? No, at least not where I come from. Pornography is a very lucrative business and girls can get rich doing things that they would do anyways. Sure, there's the occasional sleezeball, but that's true of *every* profession, not just sexual ones.

 

*If* a prostitute is a prostitute by her own choice, then I don't see anything wrong with letting her be. It's her body, if she wants to make those choices about her own body, who has the right to stop her?

 

I DO advocate for legalization, simply for safety reasons. Easier for them to get tested, etc.

[greatguy]

I think it should definitely be legalized. I'm not for prostitution, don't get me wrong, but it's an act that doesn't harm others and is performed by consenting adults(if not, that's rape). The country has too many laws, and even if just one were abolished, it would give many people here hope.

 

Also, of course there's a black market :R

[Lilithiana]

I recommend books of Lydia Cacho and Victor Malarek.

 

My personal opinion: If you can never know for sure if the prostitute was kidnapped, controlled by drugs, raped and subdued, is infected with possibly deadly illnesses, gets taken all the money from her by "protectors"... how can any decent man call upon her services?

Only a really small percentage of the prostitutes are "free" women who actually consent to the act. Most are forced one way or the other. And once being a prostitute she is stigmatized. Getting rejected by the family. Health issues. What to tell the new boss (if she gets out, what very unlikely) what she did the last years? Getting haressed because everybody thinks she is easy to get.

I haven't read so many books about this subject but it seems that prostiutes are raped quite often e.g. by their boyfriend "because she has sex with everybody anyway". And of course she won't go to the police. Who would believe a *?

[Shienvien]

Sorrily, I must note that *even* when we leave trafficking (or being forced into the proffession by others in general) out, the vast majority of prostitutes do not participate in what they do willingly. They put up with it because they see/have/find no other way to make ends meet - get money to buy food and clothes etc.

I'd say that in most cases it's not much different from rape - only in case of prostitution, the person has beforehand decided that participation is better than the alternative, be it homelessness, children taken away from them because they've not enough money to feed them or similar. And that's the 'good' kind of prostitution.

 

I would not as much legalise prostition as much as I would decriminalise it in the sense that a prostitute cannot be penalised for having been on the job. No fear of tickets or prison time would hopefully make them more willing to seek help.

 

I personally've no respect for those who buy the service, though.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Shienvien

[Kestra15]

Sorrily, I must note that *even* when we leave trafficking (or being forced into the proffession by others in general) out, the vast majority of prostitutes do not participate in what they do willingly. They put up with it because they see/have/find no other way to make ends meet - get money to buy food and clothes etc.

Evidence?

[Shienvien]

Various first- and second-hand accounts, mostly. (So what prostitutes themselves have told.)

I have read quite a few good articles on the topic, also, which I figure I could try to find and see whether have English versions later. Especially one stood out, according to which the average street-prostitute doesn't even earn that much, and that's the same more or less everywhere.

 

According to any source I've come across, those of them who are still capable of imagining a different life would gladly do anything else as long as it likewise kept them fed, clothed, warm and dry.

[Lilithiana]

You are absolutely right, Shienvien

You can even see: The poorer a country the more prostitutes it has! Because women and of course children (there are child prostitutes, too) are the weakest in most societies, get often less enducation than men and so they fall through the gap first and end up in poverty having nothing to offer than their bodys.

[Kestra15]

Various first- and second-hand accounts, mostly. (So what prostitutes themselves have told.)

I have read quite a few good articles on the topic, also, which I figure I could try to find and see whether have English versions later. Especially one stood out, according to which the average street-prostitute doesn't even earn that much, and that's the same more or less everywhere.

 

According to any source I've come across, those of them who are still capable of imagining a different life would gladly do anything else as long as it likewise kept them fed, clothed, warm and dry.

If you can find and link some empirical evidence that would be good. :~)

[Lilithiana]

Read a book of Lydia Cacho. I think Slavery Inc. is the one you should read.

Lydia was able to get close to prostitutes all over the world. But be careful. Her books are not ... nice. Better read it slowly and take breaks to stomach everything. You still might feel the need to throw up. I felt like that especially when it's about the child prostitutes.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Lilithiana

[Emeraldmay]

I have a friend who I guess you could say is a prostitute. She takes money in return for sexual acts, but I never actually thought of her as one before I read this thread.

 

Many people have stated that if it their choice, they should be free to do it. And at first, I thought that too. Then I thought about my friend's situation.

 

She doing this because she needs the attention due to bullying and her disorder. She gets attention, praise and positive feedback from it, and she enjoys doing it. She knows they're taking advantage of her, but she doesn't care, she doesn't mind. She maintains it is her free choice to do that, but I'm starting to doubt that it is, as she almost seems to be addicted to the attention she gets.

 

So even those people who choose to become prostitutes and claim to enjoy it - are they being forced into it by their backgrounds, and situation in life? If they had had a different path, would they still have wanted that as a 'career'?

 

Hope this makes sense :l

[analogized]

I dislike the term 'prostitution'. The term most commonly used today is 'sex work', and I think it's more appropriate in the modern context due to the stigma associated with being called a prostitute.

 

Okay, so. Sex workers aren't just people who engage in sex for money - they are also exotic dancers, porn stars, phone sex workers, hostesses, etc.

Sex trafficking, rape and child abuse are entirely different issues. They are terrible, horrible things that have nothing to do with the consensual participation of an individual (male or female) in the sex work industry. I have a problem with people who paint sex workers as poor, maligned and oppressed individuals because it discounts their personal agency and assumes they’re powerless in every exchange they participate in.

 

I am of the view that our bodies have been commercialized and commoditized to such an extent by modern capitalism that sex work is a subversive, empowering industry. We see scantily clad models on TV and on billboards, peddling products that promise ‘sex appeal’ and social status. All that sex workers are doing is stripping away the coy ‘implied’ layer. They control how they are marketed, their client base, their ‘price’ and their hours. (And yes, I am aware some sex workers have ‘pimps’ or ‘madams’ that take advantage of them, but everyone eventually has a y manager at work.)

 

And you know what? It’s a job. Sex work is employment and these people have mortgages, mobile phone bills, school fees to pay and clothes to buy. (Not discounting male sex workers, but there is much less of a market for them, and therefore it’s much easier to speak about women – please feel free to call me on this if you’ve got a case study you’d like to discuss! ) They are utilizing their femaleness to engage in the economy, to make their own advantages and to provide for themselves (and their families, if they have them). And yes, some people enjoy sex! And some people work in areas they enjoy!

 

I’ve read a lot of sex positive accounts of sex workers and their jobs (hello, almost useless anthropology major), and from what I can tell, it’s not a problem with sex work itself that causes the stigma and negative effects on sex workers – its society’s perceptions of sex and how it’s a shameful thing to be having outside a socially acceptable definition. It’s how society views women and sexual availability (well, she used to be a prostitute, she must now always be up for it with everyone! Or, if you rape a prostitute it’s not rape, it’s shoplifting). It’s how women always get a tiny bit of the blame when something happens (well, she shouldn’t have been out alone after dark, what was she wearing, she shouldn’t have gone off alone with him). It’s how people equate it to a morality issue. It’s not. It has nothing to do with the Bible, or being an ‘easy’ woman, or with being a threat to other people’s relationships. It’s an economic exchange.

 

I read a paper for uni a few weeks ago (will dig up a copy if anyone would like it ) that had a sex worker saying that her clients purchased her time, not her. It’s not a purchase of a soul, or a body, but of the woman’s labor and time – much like a laborer that builds walls, or a retail clerk that stocks shelves. The client doesn’t purchase the person, they purchase a service.

 

And yes, it should absolutely be legalized and regulated. There should be OHS codes that must be complied to, and their incomes should be taxed (in order to provide healthcare services). There should be sex worker’s unions and complaint boards and legal avenues through which to pursue reparation for not being paid for their services, or being assaulted or raped by a client. It should be treated like what it is – a job. Not a shameful little secret that only the woman bears the negative effects of.

 

[HeatherMarie]

*does a slow-clap*

 

Wonderfully said, analogized.

[hazeh]

Whoa. Analogized hit the nail on the head with that one. I don't believe there's much more to be said about the subject :S

[Shienvien]

I presume the last two posters are sarcastic (from the smiley and slow clap).

 

@analogize: There's a reason I said 'most' and 'majority' rather than 'all' when I spoke of prostitutes doing their job unwillingly. Do you realize that for every high class callgirl, there are many street-prostitutes who barely make ends meet? The tired- and hopeless-looking (when there are no potential clients on horizon), prematurely aged, usually heavily make-upped women who can sometimes be seen standing on the streets of larger cities? Usually they are not that easy to distinguish (I know more than one case of people mistaking them for hitchhikers; they generally will refuse to get back out of the car unless paid, whether or not the person accepts any service - can't call police either, since who'd believe 'I didn't realize she's a prostitute'?), but if you spot one, please, go and TALK to her. It'll be an eye-opening experience. (Unless they mistake you for potential client - then they will lie whatever they think you might want to hear.)

 

Also, loving sex typically has nothing to do with any of it. It's not like the average prostitute can pick only those partners the one likes.

 

@Kestra: I'll see whether I can find something the next week; I am away from home and doing net-research from my cell is a menace.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Shienvien

[danis]

I have two jobs. One is where is at a women's shelter where I have organized an outreach program for our cities' prostitutes. We offer small "goodie bags", filled with latex and non latex condoms, granola bars, and a card with information on where to get free medical treatment, hot food, a shower and a place to sleep. We are trained in how to approach these women, and how to speak discreetly. If they show intrest, we can slip the a card with contact information for help leaving the streets. My other job, I am also a sex worker.

 

I think when people hear the word "prostitute" they envision trafficked women who are abused and don't have a choice. But there are also women like myself and my second job co-workers who do it because they like it. There are even your low-class street walkers who do the job because they find it exhilarating.

 

Instead of stigmatizing the job, and shaming the workers we should be stigmatizing the abuse and punishing the abusers. The guy who beats up a woman he picked up on the street, hardly a slap on the wrist. The girl who got beat up, "well that's what you get for being a hooker".

 

I just don't think people understand how many women they're hurting with laws regarding what you can and cannot do with their own body.

[KageSora]

Just sayin', but you're gonna find people who hate their jobs, who are abused by their clients, who have terrible bosses, who are struggling to make ends meet in EVERY profession. For every higher-class, well-paid person with a pretty good job, there will be somebody on the crap end of the spectrum who is barely making it by.

 

 

Considering their previous posts in this topic, I'm gonna say that I don't think Marie and Hazard were being sarcastic.

[Shienvien]

@danis: That would be the first time I see someone claiming to like the job without having something to gain from it, and face-to-face I've spoken to ... I think about twenty (never someone trafficked, just people trying to earn living).

 

As I understand it, though, you're also somewhat secured besides the second job, and can afford saying no to unpleasant clients (unpleasant doesn't stand for abusive here, just obnoxious, smelly etc.).

What is your personal impression, are those on the job, the ones having no other choices included, who actually enjoy it a minority?

 

As I said earlier, I am for that kind of arrangement which would leave prostitutes legally free of blame, but against it being promoted.

Sex is, I feel, one of those things which should *only* be engaged in if all participants want it, not just endured on one part so as to allow the one to buy food for the one's children.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Shienvien

[analogized]

I presume the last two posters are sarcastic (from the smiley and slow clap).

 

@analogize: There's a reason I said 'most' and 'majority' rather than 'all' when I spoke of prostitutes doing their job unwillingly. Do you realize that for every high class callgirl, there are many street-prostitutes who barely make ends meet? The tired- and hopeless-looking (when there are no potential clients on horizon), prematurely aged, usually heavily make-upped women who can sometimes be seen standing on the streets of larger cities? Usually they are not that easy to distinguish (I know more than one case of people mistaking them for hitchhikers; they generally will refuse to get back out of the car unless paid, whether or not the person accepts any service - can't call police either, since who'd believe 'I didn't realize she's a prostitute'?), but if you spot one, please, go and TALK to her. It'll be an eye-opening experience. (Unless they mistake you for potential client - then they will lie whatever they think you might want to hear.)

 

Also, loving sex typically has nothing to do with any of it. It's not like the average prostitute can pick only those partners the one likes.

 

@Kestra: I'll see whether I can find something the next week; I am away from home and doing net-research from my cell is a menace.

Well, I'd like to think that Marie19R and Shiny Hazard Sign were being supportive, but that's just me.

 

Shienvien - do I realise that there are some sex workers would prefer to have other forms of employment, and sex work is not for everyone long term? Yes, it may have occurred to me once or twice. But like I said, I am referring to the consensual participation of an individual in sex work. I’m not saying sex work is the perfect profession, or it doesn’t have its inherent risks, I’m saying it should be perceived as a more value-neutral profession with more legal and community support. I think KageSora summed it up perfectly – no profession has 100% happiness. Personally, I 'endure' my current job. And there are always going to be people who are doing their jobs to make ends meet, to bide their time until they get their qualifications, as the last thing between them and hunger or homelessness. It sucks, and I am in no way trying to devalue the experiences of people who would prefer not to be sex workers, but I am trying to point out that assuming this is the case for every sex worker (or even the majority – correct me if I’m wrong, but 20 is a fairly small sample size) is unfair to them, and underwrites their capabilities and decision making abilities. It is possible to choose sex work because it’s exciting, because you enjoy sex, and because it’s a better fit for your lifestyle than your other options. And if ‘I would prefer to be doing something else’ is your baseline, there are a lot of professions that need some serious work.

 

I object to your suggestion that sex workers look ‘tired, hopeless and prematurely aged’. Yet again, that’s an unfair generalisation to make, and a hugely unsubstantiated logical leap. This assumption plays into the ‘hooker needing to be saved’ stereotype and isn’t particularly helpful to this debate. (Also, your assumption that I’ve never interacted with a sex worker before is untrue, just so you know.) We all agree that being coerced into sex work is a horrible thing, and that having literally zero other choices isn’t desirable either (as is not having the opportunity to turn away clients that are unpleasant, or set off a sex worker’s creep/danger radar). Yeah, there should be other employment available if you don’t want to be a sex worker. Yes, there should be other vocational training, other government programs that will feed you and your dependents if you’re in dire straits. But what you’re arguing is an economics and structural inequality thing, not a sex work thing.

 

I feel as though you're arguing that sex shouldn't be commercialised at all - is that where you're coming from?

 

What I am arguing is that there is nothing wrong with sex work apart from the judgmental attitudes of our sex/sl shaming society, that makes people think that sex work is something that should be hidden away from ‘proper’ society – which makes it incredibly hard to persecute those who abuse, mistreat and take advantage of sex workers, as everything occurs ‘under the table’ and away from your peers holding you accountable for your actions. If you had to present ID and a proof of a clean bill of health before you visited a sex work establishment, there would be a far greater incentive to be on your best behaviour and to treat sex workers with the respect they deserve. If there was no societal perception that sex work is in some way degrading and discrediting, and only something that coerced and vulnerable women take part in, no one would get rejected by their families or their communities for being employed in the industry and if there was no backlash, there would be no reason for sex workers not to unionise, to report clients that offend against them and to stand up for their rights.

 

Danis is right – the focus doesn’t need to be on stigmatizing sex workers, the focus needs to be on making it clear that sex workers are just as deserving of good treatment and protection as any other workers in any other industry.

 

Society needs to be able to acknowledge sex work as a non-stigmatised, legitimate and, when legal and well regulated, non morally problematic industry for individuals to work in, in order to make it safe for all those that participate.

 

(@Danis - thank you for chiming in! Your outreach work sounds really interesting. )