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I actually had a conversation about this with my mother...

 

My distinction between okay and not is whether it's a choice the person made. Sometimes times are tough and women need to do that to make money. I don't think that should be illegal. I also don't think it should be if they just wanted to do that job. What I do think should be seriously frowned upon is selling women as sex slaves, which is considered prostitution, but it's really the fault of the seller and not the victim. These are often women who were kidnapped and abused in some way to get them to cooperate. And that's what I think is most definitely not okay.

But if a woman chooses to use her assets to make money, they's her decision. I wouldn't want to be a prostitute, but that's also my decision.

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bringing up an old thread, but I wanted to add my response.

 

If you believe sex work objectifies women, that's like saying janitorial work objectifies me. The only thing I'm good for at work is my job description. They're not going to outright fire me because they don't have an emotional bond to me, and they didn't hire me because they found my mind fascinating. They hired me to pick up trash.

 

It's not the job that makes the woman look like an object. It's up to the individual to respect women as people and workers, regardless of their profession.

That is a wonderful post Lila.

You could pick pretty much any so-called "middle-class" job and put a spin on it so that it "objectifies" the worker. My mother was a waitress for 30+ years, and to this day when we go to a restaurant she does things like putting empty plates to the edge and stacking them so it will be easier for the waitress to pick them up. When I cook dinner at home and am juggling a number of plates at once, mom jokes that I learned it from her. .... Should I be offended by that, since she's insinuating that I'm acting like a waitress, and traditionally a waitress as seen as a lower, woman's role? Heck no. My mom was always proud of her jobs and I grew up with a very healthy respect for people in that industry.

 

I don't see why "sex work" is any different at all, as long as the woman is doing it of her own free will. And honestly I haven't seen *anyone* in this thread advocating that women *should* be forced into sex work. I've seen people *against* sex work using the "forcing" as a reason against it, but that's not what the people in favor of letting things be are talking about.

 

And before someone comes in here and says that no one could honestly *choose* prostitution if they have the education for a "real" job..... I'll let you in on one of my dirty secrets. When I was younger I wanted to be a prostitute. If I weren't so dang shy back then, I might have been. And it wasn't about having no other options or the quickest way to get money, it was about "hey, that's a job I'd really like to have", just like some people say about lifeguards or scuba instructors or any number of other jobs.

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I don't see why "sex work" is any different at all, as long as the woman is doing it of her own free will. And honestly I haven't seen *anyone* in this thread advocating that women *should* be forced into sex work. I've seen people *against* sex work using the "forcing" as a reason against it, but that's not what the people in favor of letting things be are talking about.

Ah, but you see - it is ridiculously hard to make sure forcing does not happen. And from the moment onward it becomes forced, it is no longer work - it is rape, plain and simple. And how do you differentiate rape from work post the fact in case of this particular profession? Nearly impossible in practice unless the prostitute was literally beaten to pulp in the process.

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The exact same way you differentiate rape from normal sex in *any* context. No means no. If the person says no or stop, and the other person doesn't, it's rape. It doesn't matter what their profession is.

 

(Of course the "no" rule may be replaced by a safeword in bdsm situations, but same concept. If I use a safeword and my partner doesn't stop immediately, it's rape, or assault, or whatever legal term you want to use.)

 

Or do you mean because prostitutes are paid to have sex, their word might not mean as much and people might not believe that they actually said or *meant* stop? That's not their problem, that's all on the legal system to realize that women *cannot* be treated differently when it comes to sex crimes just because of their line of work.

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The exact same way you differentiate rape from normal sex in *any* context. No means no. If the person says no or stop, and the other person doesn't, it's rape. It doesn't matter what their profession is.

Which brings back to my point: it is ridiculously hard to prove whether a person said or did not say no. You would literally have to record every single encounter with a client from the moment s/he entered till the end on video, and before that you'd first have to have both parties fill out a contract stating what can or cannot done or what exactly will end the game (But we agreed to some bdsm, I thought it was just a part of the play!). Oh, and having every client bring in a paper stating no STD's would be a good idea, too (although you still would not know who the person spent their time together with last evening). You'd still have to check up frequently and *hope*.

 

Plus, there would be even harder time with detecting women who do not dare to say no because they fear that if they say no, they won't be able to pay their bills and so forth, and go "okay, this is not so bad, I will grit my teeth and get through it". It is not OK. It is emotionally just as damaging as any attack-rape without forced "consent" being given. And may I tell you - giving every prostitute monthly psych evaluation is too costly and resource-demanding to carry through.

 

There are very few "escort prostitutes" compared to the common line-workers. And those who buy from the line-workers are not always pleasant. (Who would buy if there are people who'd do the same for free? Plenty of clients are either very inexperienced or very ... lazy on the social side.)

 

That's not their problem, that's all on the legal system to realize that women *cannot* be treated differently when it comes to sex crimes just because of their line of work.
The legal system is overburdened. Dozen times overburdened. It is hard to differentiate between flackers and true rape-cases and possible cases of harmful repression (the I-will-tolerate-since-alternatives-are-worse kind, for example) as it is.

 

Yes, some prostitutes are happy with their lives, but the majority is not and will never be. The legal system would take less strain if it was methodically kept as low as possible, since there is no feasible way to keep this kind of thing healthy. Fewer people would suffer with lowered prostitution.

 

I do not agree with the imprisonment of prostitutes - that ultimately just puts them in worse positions in life - but they should be directed to other lines.

 

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Which brings back to my point: it is ridiculously hard to prove whether a person said or did not say no. You would literally have to record every single encounter with a client from the moment s/he entered till the end on video, and before that you'd first have to have both parties fill out a contract stating what can or cannot done or what exactly will end the game (But we agreed to some bdsm, I thought it was just a part of the play!). Oh, and having every client bring in a paper stating no STD's would be a good idea, too (although you still would not know who the person spent their time together with last evening). You'd still have to check up frequently and *hope*.

 

Plus, there would be even harder time with detecting women who do not dare to say no because they fear that if they say no, they won't be able to pay their bills and so forth, and go "okay, this is not so bad, I will grit my teeth and get through it". It is not OK. It is emotionally just as damaging as any attack-rape without forced "consent" being given. And may I tell you - giving every prostitute monthly psych evaluation is too costly and resource-demanding to carry through.

 

There are very few "escort prostitutes" compared to the common line-workers. And those who buy from the line-workers are not always pleasant. (Who would buy if there are people who'd do the same for free? Plenty of clients are either very inexperienced or very ... lazy on the social side.)

 

The legal system is overburdened. Dozen times overburdened. It is hard to differentiate between flackers and true rape-cases and possible cases of harmful repression (the I-will-tolerate-since-alternatives-are-worse kind, for example) as it is.

 

Yes, some prostitutes are happy with their lives, but the majority is not and will never be. The legal system would take less strain if it was methodically kept as low as possible, since there is no feasible way to keep this kind of thing healthy. Fewer people would suffer with lowered prostitution.

 

I do not agree with the imprisonment of prostitutes - that ultimately just puts them in worse positions in life - but they should be directed to other lines.

There are reasons that dom/dominatixs/escorts and their companies (reputable ones anyway) come up with these things before entering into any type of sex work with a client.

 

When everything is done correctly (including written consent) it is easy to prove that the client agreed to a set of terms (or the dom) and violated them.

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When everything is done correctly (including written consent) it is easy to prove that the client agreed to a set of terms (or the dom) and violated them.

Would still have to record everything, from beginning to end, or it remains word against word and a long, dragging and often inaccurate process of trying to prove one or other right. In all cases, to believe it can be made easy with relative ease is naive. Utterly obvious cases often take years to handle.

 

And as said: escorts are minority, and even there you can find the occasional forced one.

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Which brings back to my point: it is ridiculously hard to prove whether a person said or did not say no. You would literally have to record every single encounter with a client from the moment s/he entered till the end on video, and before that you'd first have to have both parties fill out a contract stating what can or cannot done or what exactly will end the game (But we agreed to some bdsm, I thought it was just a part of the play!). Oh, and having every client bring in a paper stating no STD's would be a good idea, too (although you still would not know who the person spent their time together with last evening). You'd still have to check up frequently and *hope*.

 

Plus, there would be even harder time with detecting women who do not dare to say no because they fear that if they say no, they won't be able to pay their bills and so forth, and go "okay, this is not so bad, I will grit my teeth and get through it". It is not OK. It is emotionally just as damaging as any attack-rape without forced "consent" being given. And may I tell you - giving every prostitute monthly psych evaluation is too costly and resource-demanding to carry through.

 

There are very few "escort prostitutes" compared to the common line-workers. And those who buy from the line-workers are not always pleasant. (Who would buy if there are people who'd do the same for free? Plenty of clients are either very inexperienced or very ... lazy on the social side.)

 

The legal system is overburdened. Dozen times overburdened. It is hard to differentiate between flackers and true rape-cases and possible cases of harmful repression (the I-will-tolerate-since-alternatives-are-worse kind, for example) as it is.

 

Yes, some prostitutes are happy with their lives, but the majority is not and will never be. The legal system would take less strain if it was methodically kept as low as possible, since there is no feasible way to keep this kind of thing healthy. Fewer people would suffer with lowered prostitution.

 

I do not agree with the imprisonment of prostitutes - that ultimately just puts them in worse positions in life - but they should be directed to other lines.

I have to point out, almost every single thing you say here could just as easily be said about regular sex. Yes, it IS hard to prove rape if there's no physical trauma, whether the sex is with a friend, a boyfriend, a client, whatever. EVERYTHING you are saying can be applied to regular sex, and yet you don't see people demanding that EVERYONE document and contract before every single sexual encounter, or "be directed to other lines" (ie not having sex).

 

"She said yes in the beginning, doesn't that count?!" "We agreed to a little rough play, I didn't realize her struggles were for real!" etc etc etc, every excuse in the book, already done to death. Those aren't things that would be exclusive to prostitutes, we see that all the time in this society.

 

I don't think it's fair to act like sex work is some huge burden, or *would* be some huge burden if legalized, because RAPE HAPPENS ANYWAYS, no matter who you are. And it's just as hard to prove, just as stigmatized, just as horrible to go through. There is no difference.

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I don't think it's fair to act like sex work is some huge burden, or *would* be some huge burden if legalized, because RAPE HAPPENS ANYWAYS, no matter who you are. And it's just as hard to prove, just as stigmatized, just as horrible to go through. There is no difference.

Except the clients would, in most cases, be individuals you don't know and there would be relatively high number of them. There are very few people whose sex lives even remotely resemble anything your average prostitute goes through (okay, there might be some people who pick up several random individuals a night from some nightclub, but...). Escorts tend to be different - but they are not wont to become anything but minority.

 

I know the usual rape is often enough a hard case - and I maintain prostitution would add a huge load of those and unreported cases.

 

 

I also do not agree with it because of what it - if widely accepted - would do to society, never mind individuals' emotional capabilities.

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Except the clients would, in most cases, be individuals you don't know and there would be relatively high number of them. There are very few people whose sex lives even remotely resemble anything your average prostitute goes through (okay, there might be some people who pick up several random individuals a night from some nightclub, but...). Escorts tend to be different - but they are not wont to become anything but minority.

 

I know the usual rape is often enough a hard case - and I maintain prostitution would add a huge load of those and unreported cases.

 

 

I also do not agree with it because of what it - if widely accepted - would do to society, never mind individuals' emotional capabilities.

Interested in an elaboration on that last comment.

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I also do not agree with it because of what it - if widely accepted - would do to society, never mind individuals' emotional capabilities.

I'm also interested in elaboration.

 

I mean, do you see a problem with society in Amsterdam in the Netherlands? Or in Nevada, where prostitution is legal throughout much of the state? Brothels are licensed and regulated, the employees are tested weekly for STDs. The employees must also register with the county sheriff's office, and must prove they are of age to participate in such work (18 or 21, depending on the county).

 

Now, I will grant that the Nevada counties with legal brothels do tend to be mostly rural, which will make a difference. But, consider this: prostitution is ILLEGAL in Clark County, where Las Vegas is. And yet, according to Wikipedia,

 

From the Strip to downtown Fremont Street at most bus stops and many street lights, a large collection of free flyers offering escort services with semi-nude pictures are available. Moreover, smaller hand sized flyers are dispensed to tourists and others along the Las Vegas Strip, often right in front of the most luxurious hotels and casinos, by freelance workers. These flyers also graphically depict female 'personal' entertainers or escort services. Despite the attempt to make Las Vegas more family-friendly, such advertising for these services goes on undisturbed by police or hotel security.[26]

 

In 2009 Las Vegas was identified by the FBI as one of 14 cities in the U.S. with high rates of child prostitution.[27] Las Vegas police claimed that "roughly 400 children are picked off the streets from prostitution each year."[28]

 

The U.S. Justice Department has also named Las Vegas among the 17 most likely destinations for human trafficking.[29]

 

To me, that's an excellent argument in favor of legalizing and regulating prostitution. To be blunt about it, as long as someone is willing to pay for it, someone is going to sell. Better to set it up in such a way as to offer a greater degree of protection for those who are in the business willingly, and to make it easier for anyone in it unwillingly to seek help without needing to fear prosecution as well as the whoever forced them into the business.

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Its illegal, but of course there are black markets around.

 

Don't bash me, but I'm actually against it. It is against my faith and personal values. I think there are health issues linked to prostitution like diseases contracted from that stuff. And protection doesn't always work- this could end in more children unwanted.

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I mean, do you see a problem with society in Amsterdam in the Netherlands?
There were ... some issues regarding repeated semi-harassment of my smaller, "cuter" travelling companion in Switzerland... Rather unpleasant, may I add. And in broad daylight. In random places.

 

A male acquaintance was also persistently harassed in another country - though in this case, it was locals very aggressively trying to sell him the services, no matter how much he said no or waved his marriage band around.

 

And so on and so forth; there have been instances on travels where, in my own country, I'd just have called the cops. I myself at least have the advantage of physically looking like I could knock a man out, so they usually don't come for me. dry.gif

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It's illegal here, but that just makes it worse for the working women. I would rather it be legal with legislation in place to protect the women.

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There were ... some issues regarding repeated semi-harassment of my smaller, "cuter" travelling companion in Switzerland... Rather unpleasant, may I add. And in broad daylight. In random places.

 

A male acquaintance was also persistently harassed in another country - though in this case, it was locals very aggressively trying to sell him the services, no matter how much he said no or waved his marriage band around.

 

And so on and so forth; there have been instances on travels where, in my own country, I'd just have called the cops. I myself at least have the advantage of physically looking like I could knock a man out, so they usually don't come for me. dry.gif

Harassment of both men and women can happen anywhere, regardless of the legality or illegality of prostitution. I myself have been harassed on occasion, including an incident which involved unwanted physical advances. Only one of those incidents of harassment took place in a country which currently considers prostitution legal (said incident took place 30 years ago and I've no idea what the law might have been then) and I was well underage and looked it at the time it happened.

 

I specifically asked if you saw a difference and/or problem with society in someplace such as the Netherlands or Nevada, USA; places in which prostitution is legal, as compared to society in other US states or other countries in which prostitution is illegal.

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Answer to which would be yes: from what I've seen, it does seem to very tangibly affect how prevalent - and shall we say, blatant - certain kinds of attitudes and behaviours are. Especially semi-publicly and in broad daylight.

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It is legal here (NZ), having been decriminalised in 2003, and was tolerated though still technically illegal under the guise of 'massage parlours' since 1978. I don't think it has affected the level of harrassment, and tbh from what I can make out (over the internet and mainstream media) street harrassment at least is far less of a problem here than in the US. I don't think the attitudes and behaviours are related to prostituition, it is to do with the culture of the country/state itself.

 

You asked about stopping people 'forcing themselves.' Personally, I don't think that's fair. A lot of people 'force' themselves to work. They don't REALLY want to be a janitor/burger flipper/truck driver. It doesn't mean that they hate the job per se, or that they need to be protected from it. I think your negative view of prostitution is speaking here, not good reasoning. In NZ at least we have a fairly good social system and health care. It is not perfect, it could certainly be improved but it is there and it is livable (not great or anything, and less than 40 hours at minimum wage but you can live on it). If people do not want to do sex work, no one is making them. If they are forced by someone else, then of course that is illegal and reprehensible. But I don't think you can try to set up laws to stop people deciding that at this point in time sex work is the best option, even if not one they would make if it was not necessary.

 

I think legalisation is important in the protection of those women who choose for whatever reason to go into sex work.

In NZ for instance sex workers

- may refuse any client for any or NO reason, and may not be forced by anyone (including the boss) and may not be fined by the manager for refusing. This is true EVEN IF THE CLIENT HAS ALREADY PAID. I do not know if a refund must be given in these cases.

- must use a condom. Not doing so is a fine-able offence for both client and worker

- must be over 18 to work in a brothel (legal age of consent here is 16 just FYI). Also being a prostitute and under 18 is NOT ILLEGAL, but HIRING a prostitute under 18 IS (ie if you are young and prostitute yourself YOU ARE NOT BLAMED)

- brothel operators MAY NOT have sexual, violent or drug related convictions

etc etc

 

Making it illegal will not get rid of it, it simply makes it more dangerous for the women involved and means that they have no chance of legal protection if a client does something they shouldn't. So even though I personally dislike the idea, I have no problem with it being legal, and won't judge those people who choose to do it.

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