Good Guy vs. Bad Guy

[Infinis]

Something that seems to bother me is the fact that in every story, no matter what, the good guy always wins. What if the bad guy won for a change? I think it would be an extremely interesting story if the bad guy won for a change. I know that this would probably lead to a lot of anger or irritation, because then it would mean the world is doomed and there's no one who can save us. But in every story, it's so easy to predict the ending; the good guy wins and the bad guy ends up dead or in jail. This seems a lot like some sort of ignored cliche if you ask me, so I was wondering what other people might think about this idea. Do you think it would be a poor story? Do you think the good guy should always win? Feel free to discuss. And actually, if you are pro to this idea, and like to write, feel free to write a short story, or an ending to a book where you would have liked to see the bad guy win (give credit to the author though.).

FINALLY there is someone else out there who agrees with me. @_@ I won't write a story, but heroes are extremely cliche, and as such I've grown to hate all but a few heroes. Case in point is Bleach. Ichcigo is the most cliche hero ever. >.> Maybe that's why I like Aizen so much. >.>

 

@7Deadly$ins: ***SPOILER***(Although I'm not sure who HASN'T read To Kill A Mockingbird...)

 

The good guys win because they killed the man who trying to hurt the kids at the end, but I think the black guy dies. >.>

[darkangel787]

Heroes...cliche...yes.

 

ALL of the heroes out there (well I can't really use the logical fallacy of general assumption, so I'm just going to say MOST of the heroes) are cliche. Just a simple fact of life. They have a "saving people thing" that can't be helped.

 

[DragonNighthowler]

Heroes are extremely Cliché. The whole thing is them being extremely good and altruistic to risk their lives, in order to save poor, helpless people.

 

I'll refer to my latest book. The main character is an SS Official. As a good Nazi, faithful to the regime to the point he's nicknamed German Dog due to his loyalty to the Fuhrer.

 

That's the main character. Obviously little hero cliché here.

 

I'd love to read more things like these, where the main character has some genuine interests in doing what he does, aside from;

"Oh, I'm so noble, and good, and great, that I must save this poor woman and her kids who I've never met, and I'm going to stupidly risk my life when I might be needed somewhere else, because I'm so good!"

[Completely Different]

While I like one or two outright "Villain wins, world is doomed, horror reins forever" stories...they're a bit depressing.

 

Stories where good and evil aren't obvious, though- that's fun. I love when you can't tell which side is which, and when the ending is ambigious. A brilliant example would be the graphic novel 'Watchmen'.

[Zovesta]

Heroes are extremely Cliché. The whole thing is them being extremely good and altruistic to risk their lives, in order to save poor, helpless people.

 

I'll refer to my latest book. The main character is an SS Official. As a good Nazi, faithful to the regime to the point he's nicknamed German Dog due to his loyalty to the Fuhrer.

 

That's the main character. Obviously little hero cliché here.

 

I'd love to read more things like these, where the main character has some genuine interests in doing what he does, aside from;

"Oh, I'm so noble, and good, and great, that I must save this poor woman and her kids who I've never met, and I'm going to stupidly risk my life when I might be needed somewhere else, because I'm so good!"

+Googleplex

 

I love you. And that story sounds awesome. =V I just don't get why a main character even has to be a hero - why can't they be about a normal person in an interesting area or something? They can still do amazing things.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Zovesta

[7Deadly$ins]

FINALLY there is someone else out there who agrees with me. @_@ I won't write a story, but heroes are extremely cliche, and as such I've grown to hate all but a few heroes. Case in point is Bleach. Ichcigo is the most cliche hero ever. >.> Maybe that's why I like Aizen so much. >.>

 

@7Deadly$ins: ***SPOILER***(Although I'm not sure who HASN'T read To Kill A Mockingbird...)

 

The good guys win because they killed the man who trying to hurt the kids at the end, but I think the black guy dies. >.>

I don't see it as a good guys winning situation still. Sure, the man died, and sure, he tried to hurt the kids, but the story was hardly about the kids. I would say the "good guys won" if they actually got Tom Robinson (I think that was his name) cleared and he didn't die. Instead it was more of, "children escape with broke arm, drunk man dies."

 

[crazywargod]

I have tried to read it but could never get past a page or so. It put me to sleep. It was so bad my teacher made me choose a different book. Though hearing that ending description it was more of a "the good guys won BUT at what cost." Type thing.

[7Deadly$ins]

Not really. The "good guys" escaped from a conflict (which just so-happens at the end), but the main conflict of the book was Tom's trial, which he was not cleared of, and still died anyway despite all the evidence. It was frustrating because you know it was wrong, and nothing worked out.

 

The guy (I can't remember his name) won the main victory -- he convicted Tom. He later died, but he had already won.

Edited August 14, 2010 by 7Deadly$ins

[klinneah]

Went looking for "books where the bad guy wins"

http://www.amazon.com/Read-some-novels-whe.../R116JG7OJ52ENT

 

The Silmarillion

Animal Farm

1984

 

Edited September 29, 2010 by klinneah

[Stephanie_B]

I prefer good guys.

[RubyRed74]

I like books where there aren't fairy tale endings, but I can only read so many before I get tired of them. One of my favorite books with blurred endings is Choker by Elizabeth Woods. It's a YA psychological thriller. My favorite endings are ones that have a bit of happiness, but there's still some tragedy. Like the ending of Mockingjay.

[NixAyum]

I want to see more villain protagonists (Death Note, Invader Zim). The main character is not the good guy, but you still kinda root for them anyway. (I like character dynamics so so very much.)

[DarkEternity]

By gray I mean he was never really a "good" guy or "bad" guy but a neutral. A mercenarie if you will. In fact I think that suits him perfectly.

I think you mean anti hero. Anyway, Artemis is mostly White or a very light shade of grey suitable for child audiences, towards the Atlantis Complex anyway

klinneah- Orwell is depressing.

NixAyum- I did, until I read Macbeth. That was gory and depressing.

 

I like reading about heroes that are so close to their villain counterparts they are almost indistinguishable.

 

 

[brisingrrider]

It's interesting, but needs careful handling. Admit it, you're going to be upset if you spent 300+ pages watching some guy on his quest or whatever, only to have him get up there and die.

You could always just have the bad guy be the main character...

[brisingrrider]

oops i probably should have read the messages above my post first...

[Matmetchi]

I hate stories where the Bad Guy ends up being the Good Guy.

It's like, 'Oh please, like those exist. :l'

 

It's sort of the way I feel about sad endings. I love them, but at the same time I hate them.

[DragonNighthowler]

I hate stories where the Bad Guy ends up being the Good Guy.

It's like, 'Oh please, like those exist. :l'

 

It's sort of the way I feel about sad endings. I love them, but at the same time I hate them.

I don't get what you mean.

 

You mean a last hour redeem of the bad guy? Or that it happens the bad guy's plans were actually good plans?

 

I quiet like a grey morality. A terrorist fighting for his homeland is a far more believable character than a "I'm going to rule/detroy the world!!! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!"

[Matmetchi]

I don't get what you mean.

 

You mean a last hour redeem of the bad guy? Or that it happens the bad guy's plans were actually good plans?

 

I quiet like a grey morality. A terrorist fighting for his homeland is a far more believable character than a "I'm going to rule/detroy the world!!! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!"

That's exactly what I mean. :c

Like some Bad Guy that's tragically misunderstood, and at the very end, you find out he was actually just trying to help/pay for his sickly Mother's hospital fee's/get away from his abusive family.

Or something really dramatic like that. = A =

[NixAyum]

I'd actually like to write something like that. Dramatic reveals/plot twists like that can be amazing if done right.

[kadoatie]

TV Tropes is a great way to find examples!

 

heel face turn: good guy goes bad over the course of the story

grey and gray morality or morality kitchen sink: everyone is ambiguous and/or mixed

then let me be evil: the world treats good/neutral character as if they were evil, character eventually goes evil

freudian excuse: evil character has abuse or similar trauma in the past

well intentioned extremists: what the name suggests - decent purpose, ugly/evil/violent execution

 

For loose definitions of good and evil. There are so many variations and subtropes, and the site has pages for as many as you can think of *__*

[SPQR]

I hate stories where the Bad Guy ends up being the Good Guy.

It's like, 'Oh please, like those exist. :l'

I know what you're talking about. They're so stupidly sappy. Why can't someone just be evil without some sad whiny backstory behind it?

[Dragonhatchling]

I, personally, liked the bad people more... and, well, am writing a short story (in progress) of where the bad 'thing' (can't say) does sorta 'win'. They don't really compete in a battle of anything like actual fighting (like a gun or sword fight but in a way, it is a fight) but it's a twist I wanted to write about since I can remember. It's confusing to explain My website has it up, it's a failing story (trust me, I have my days where I write bad and that always seems to be the time I have time to write these chapters, I write better though...) and I don't really have a title... that's also a WIP.

 

So, yeah... I can explain further if someone wanted through PM... I just won't give details away here

[DragonNighthowler]

That's exactly what I mean. :c

Like some Bad Guy that's tragically misunderstood, and at the very end, you find out he was actually just trying to help/pay for his sickly Mother's hospital fee's/get away from his abusive family.

Or something really dramatic like that. = A =

I quiet like that, far more than the typical "I'm so evil I want to destroy the world!!!!".

It's more realistic. The real world functions like this, through interests you might share or not. grey morality characters are far more deep and fleshed out than inherently good or evil characters, and they make for a more appealing read than the typical villain/hero story.

 

A good example of a typical Villain Hero story would be the Dragonlance Series, as well as the Dark Elf saga, written by Salvatore, where most villains are simply evil, and want to cause chaos and destruction because they are evil.

I mean, really? That's so cliché! I know the hero is going to win, and I know the villain has this evil plan to evilly rule the world, because he's evil and wants to cause chaos and destruction just because he's evil.

 

In a series I've recently just finnished, the Black Mage's trilogy, we find out the evil man was more of a grey morality. It's a bit amateurish, the series I mean, but it made a delightful read and I loved the way the evil character was developed, so deep and interestingly, you can't avoid actually feeling something for him, be it good or bad.

 

Many books, movies, series today portray the story from the "bad guy's" perspective, which makes us grow sympathy on the character. For example, Assassin's Creed, Wanted, The Path of Shadows, Dexter, etc. All this people should be evil if viewed from the perspective of a traditionally legal good guy, like a policeman.

However, they are deep, complex, well fleshed out assassins, which makes them even more interesting because they do evil things, they know they are evil, yet have their reasons to be such.

Edited September 2, 2011 by DragonNighthowler

[PlutoIsHades]

I wrote a story where the good guy is killed by the bad guy, but then the good guy is revived and the characters' conflict isn't really resolved.

[Fortune86]

I've never read the books its based on, but I love the Dexter tv series.

 

The dude is a serial killer (who targets other killers) and we're all rooting for him. Okay, so not every one of his victims has been a killer, in one case he killed a guy who was perving on his step daughter. His 'innocent' kills include an old friend of his step father's who was dying of some very painful cancer and some random bloke who insulted Dexter's dead wife.