Posted October 16, 2011 How about murder? Infanticide? Betrayal? Rape? Torture? Genocide? If Hitler killed millions, but did so to every race equally, would he be better than a man who often and loudly claims that black people are lazy and stupid? Racism might LEAD to things like murder and rape, but so might mental instability, or misanthropy, or any number of things. Yes, because racism causes the said crimes more than any other singular reason. Think about the horrendous amounts of said rape, pillage, murder, genocide etc has occurred, just because of someone's race. And I'm English, thank you. Actually, half-English, half-German. With black family members. So I think I may know quite a bit about racism. Share this post Link to post
Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) I'll have to disagree with you. Yes, murder, rape, torture, betrayal can be worse, but any of those things could have been directly caused by racism, therefore, making racism the dangerous factor which caused those events. I highly disapprove of racism because of the ignorance involved. Ignorance is dangerous. It leads to those sort of things. It leads to war, it leads to death, it leads to pain and hurt. Therefore, yes, I don't see many things that are worse than racism, or any kind of prejudice, because racism and prejudice can be the underlying cause of those actions taken against innocent people. I think we have a discrepancy in terms of scale here. One group harassing another, different group has probably caused the most net suffering over all time, yes. (Though I might mention, an awful lot of the time that was born out of convenience and political gain. Jews collecting interest on their loans? Run them out of town, don't have to pay them back. Ruling class of a specific phenotype? It's easier to convince countrymen to overthrow them if you make it a matter of US FOLK and THOSE ***.) Thing is though, groups harassing other, different groups is something that's been bred into humans for a long, long time. Because humans are social animals, and that means groups everywhere. And what that boils down to is, stick with YOUR group, by slamming those OTHER groups. Why are you part of YOUR group and not THAT group? Because YOUR group is the best. I really, really don't want to go on a long rambling lecture about how that came to be and why and all the science involved, it's a fairly broad subject and I'm sure you all have the resources to find out yourselves. Things like racism, and classism, and other -isms (though perhaps not sexism, that's typically blamed on the advent of agriculture), are totally predictable results of evolving in an environment where it was completely essential to stay in YOUR group and be favored by YOUR group. Those other groups? those guys, from the perspective of an ancient hunter-gatherer. Race is not the deciding factor. GROUPS are. If you live in a society where race matters, and races are considered different groups, whether it means that blacks have separate water fountains or whether they get special benefits when applying to college, there WILL be racism. This is why I vehemently oppose affirmative action. When combating racism, it is NEVER a good idea to separate races into groups in any concrete manner. If in your society, everyone is the same race, and everyone is the same religion, and everyone makes the same amount of money--but some people shop at Walmart and some people shop at Kmart, there would be ****storms galore. Because people will always, always, always find reasons to separate themselves into groups. The craving for belonging, born of thousands and thousands of years of evolution, is too strong. (And I'm not even going to talk about the Monkeysphere, and how it creates the necessity of stereotypes. Go forth and Google.) Similarly, if you live in a society where racism is frowned upon, and being racist makes you a pariah, being part of the GROUP of society is more important than being part of the GROUP of a certain race. Because that's the best way to survive. And we already kind of live in a racism-is-bad society, even if we do still insist on making a big deal of race and segregating based on it (ahemhemaffrimativeactionhem). That's why there's less racism now than, say, 400 years ago. In today's society, it's more important to be not racist than it is to belong to a race. So, understanding this, I have no real feelings about racism, aside from the vaguely disapproving. It's a symptom of the path of evolution humans took. That's how it is. We certainly should fight it, but acting as if it's such a hateful, unnatural thing for a person to think seems silly to me. Murder and rape and torture are far more unnatural and hateful to me. And I'm English, thank you. Actually, half-English, half-German. With black family members. So I think I may know quite a bit about racism. Terribly sorry, I didn't realize you had family members who were actually black. Clearly, your shared blood with dark-skinned people makes your opinion superior to mine. I hope to show proper deference to your knowledge in future times. Edited October 16, 2011 by SockPuppet Strangler Share this post Link to post
Posted October 16, 2011 No Ilera, I was in fact countering your rather dismissive opinion of American views on racism by pointing out I have a decidedly non-American background. I was going to point out how racism has caused some of the greatest of atrocities in history, how it doesn't take one person to cause such massive consequences but in fact an ideal, etc, but given your dismissive and superior attitude, I quite honestly can't be bothered. Share this post Link to post
Posted October 16, 2011 The idea that if you're not against it, you're for it? This may be one of those rare times where I can actually see that as being a somewhat-valid argument. Against it or for it ? Racism exists within each and every one of us whether you like it or not, racism is a part of being human, we all are racist on some levels.... Idiots take it to the extreme levels, thats the only difference.... Share this post Link to post
Posted October 16, 2011 Against it or for it ? Racism exists within each and every one of us whether you like it or not, racism is a part of being human, we all are racist on some levels....Idiots take it to the extreme levels, thats the only difference.... I'd personally say 'prejudice' rather than 'racism.' Share this post Link to post
Posted October 16, 2011 Against it or for it ? Racism exists within each and every one of us whether you like it or not, racism is a part of being human, we all are racist on some levels....Idiots take it to the extreme levels, thats the only difference.... How so? This is like saying everyone believes in God deep down inside, just some people refuse to express it. I really would beg to differ. I think it's all about how you were raised. I grew up with friends of different color. I grew up with friends of the same color. There is and was zero tolerance for any sort of racism. I'm not racist. That's not how I grew up, that's not how I feel. I have always believed a human is a human, no matter what race or nationality. I've always considered myself not a US citizen, but a world citizen. I don't even say the pledge, and for you to say that I'm racist 'within?' I consider this a rude and ignorant comment. You're assuming something about me that just isn't true. Prejudice, everyone is prejudiced. But racist, no. Share this post Link to post
Posted October 16, 2011 I'd personally say 'prejudice' rather than 'racism.' One is the symptom of the other though.... Share this post Link to post
Posted October 16, 2011 One is the symptom of the other though.... You're using the wrong word again. One is a sub-category of the other. There are people prejudiced about religion, there's sexism and racism... all those fall under prejudice, not are 'symptoms' of prejudice. Share this post Link to post
Posted October 16, 2011 You're using the wrong word again. One is a sub-category of the other. There are people prejudiced about religion, there's sexism and racism... all those fall under prejudice, not are 'symptoms' of prejudice. This. Racism is a form of prejudice by definition. Share this post Link to post
Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) How so? This is like saying everyone believes in God deep down inside, just some people refuse to express it. I really would beg to differ. I think it's all about how you were raised. I grew up with friends of different color. I grew up with friends of the same color. There is and was zero tolerance for any sort of racism. I'm not racist. That's not how I grew up, that's not how I feel. I have always believed a human is a human, no matter what race or nationality. I've always considered myself not a US citizen, but a world citizen. I don't even say the pledge, and for you to say that I'm racist 'within?' I consider this a rude and ignorant comment. You're assuming something about me that just isn't true. Prejudice, everyone is prejudiced. But racist, no. God is not a part of human nature, racism is.... It is our basic instinct to look for similarities, black and black are more similar than white and black. Its how human psyche works, you may claim you are not racist but no human being goes through life without being racist even on a subconscious level... I dont care about persons color/religion/gender or anything but that doesnt mean there is no racsim within me... Its basic.. even animals reject animals from their pack if they are different.... Edit: This. Racism is a form of prejudice by definition. Yes, and I claimed we all are prejudical based on race sometime, even if we dont know it even if we dont like it, hence racism is a part of us, will be and always was since the beginning of humanity..... Edited October 16, 2011 by The Evil Doer Share this post Link to post
Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) God is not a part of human nature, racism is.... It is our basic instinct to look for similarities, black and black are more similar than white and black. Its how human psyche works, you may claim you are not racist but no human being goes through life without being racist even on a subconscious level... I dont care about persons color/religion/gender or anything but that doesnt mean there is no racsim within me... Its basic.. even animals reject animals from their pack if they are different.... Wrong. God, in a sense, is part of human nature. For huge lengths of time us humans have created gods or such things to explain the in-explainable. And that's coming from an atheist. Animals don't force each other out of their pack because of color. Not everyone is racist, but everyone is prejudiced in some way. It's not how human psyche works. It's not 'wired' into us. Face it, skin color isn't always the thing people recognize as similarities. Give me an example of being racist on a 'sub-conscious' level. Really, I'm quite intrigued as to what it'll be. If you can't come up with one I would say there's no such thing and/or not everyone's like that. EDIT: Yes, and I claimed we all are prejudical based on race sometime, even if we dont know it even if we dont like it, hence racism is a part of us, will be and always was since the beginning of humanity..... There weren't races since the beginning of humanity. We later evolved and adapted that way, but we were all similar once, and likely all from Africa. Now granted, there would be slight variations, but not white and black. Edited October 16, 2011 by Packgoater Share this post Link to post
Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) Wrong. God, in a sense, is part of human nature. For huge lengths of time us humans have created gods or such things to explain the in-explainable. And that's coming from an atheist. God (if you dont believe in it) was created in order to : 1. Keep people in order by giving them something to fear (control) 2. Deal with the fear of death (unknown) God is not an instinct but a clever invention (if you are an atheist) Animals don't force each other out of their pack because of color. Not everyone is racist, but everyone is prejudiced in some way. It's not how human psyche works. It's not 'wired' into us. Face it, skin color isn't always the thing people recognize as similarities. last I checked animals do just that (white lions for example) but I wont talk too much on the topic Im not that familiar with.... Skin, religion, gender, all those are the first things people look at when it comes down to "visual" similarities... Give me an example of being racist on a 'sub-conscious' level. Really, I'm quite intrigued as to what it'll be. If you can't come up with one I would say there's no such thing and/or not everyone's like that. When you sit next to a white person on a subway instead of next to a black one,.... When you feel like slightly out of context in a black church on sunday.... when you cross the street after you have noticed three black guys on that side of the street in the night... When you are attracted to a white girl instead of to her black friend... There are whole bunch of stuff that happens within our brain that we are unaware of, and which are a direct result of that basic instinct of looking for similarities.... That is used vastly in PR, marketing and politics... We all have it simply because we are human, it doesnt make you a kkk member a nazi nor even means you have any issues whatsoever with color, but it is there.... There weren't races since the beginning of humanity. We later evolved and adapted that way, but we were all similar once, and likely all from Africa. Now granted, there would be slight variations, but not white and black. Likely ? We all originated from Africa.... Similarities back then were different tribes, different jaw stracture or anything else visually different Edited October 17, 2011 by The Evil Doer Share this post Link to post
Posted October 17, 2011 When you are attracted to a white girl instead of to her black friend... What???? So male homosexuals and female heterosexuals are sexist against females and male heterosexuals and female homosexuals are sexist against males?????????? Share this post Link to post
Posted October 17, 2011 When you are attracted to a white girl instead of to her black friend... I found the Indian girl on the Everest trek more alluring than her white friend. Share this post Link to post
Posted October 17, 2011 Likely ? We all originated from Africa.... Similarities back then were different tribes, different jaw stracture or anything else visually different The only reason I said likely is because there are people out there who believe that God created people on their continents just as they are. I was being considerate, not stupid, just in case you were one of them. :/ God is not an instinct but a clever invention (if you are an atheist) I just said I was an atheist, didn't I? Anyway, God himself isn't an instinct, but the need to explain what can't is, and normally, for us, that involves making theories, like God or the Greek mythology. last I checked animals do just that (white lions for example) but I wont talk too much on the topic Im not that familiar with.... Skin, religion, gender, all those are the first things people look at when it comes down to "visual" similarities... As you said 'pack' I was more thinking wolves. It's common to see several different colors of wolves together. They don't segregate. When you sit next to a white person on a subway instead of next to a black one,.... When you feel like slightly out of context in a black church on sunday.... when you cross the street after you have noticed three black guys on that side of the street in the night... When you are attracted to a white girl instead of to her black friend... There are whole bunch of stuff that happens within our brain that we are unaware of, and which are a direct result of that basic instinct of looking for similarities.... That is used vastly in PR, marketing and politics... We all have it simply because we are human, it doesnt make you a kkk member a nazi nor even means you have any issues whatsoever with color, but it is there.... So if I sit next to someone with a beard on a subway instead of someone without, that means I'm facial hair-ist? I don't go to church. I don't feel out of place when I hang with my black friends and I'm the only white one. I feel fine with it because I accept them and they accept me. So, again, if I like a guy who has a beard instead of a guy without I'm facial hair- ist? Really? And honestly, I like black guys. :/ And white guys. I really don't have a preference. Nor do I care if their Asian. It doesn't matter to me. My attraction is more based on personality and intelligence. And certain accents. Certain accents I find attractive. Share this post Link to post
Posted October 17, 2011 What???? So male homosexuals and female heterosexuals are sexist against females and male heterosexuals and female homosexuals are sexist against males?????????? Male homosexual (if he is white) is far more likely to be attracted to a white guy instead of a black one, because people tend to look for similarities (for themselves), Im not saying that 100% of the people will feel that way, Im just saying that most of the people do and that it happens on a subconscious level... Many experiments and researches have been done on the subject, we relate to and feel more comfortable with people who look like us.... Things I have listed above were examples of that, didnt claim all of them apply to everyone... those were just a few examples, not some universal rule for all... Share this post Link to post
Posted October 17, 2011 This whole "subconscious racism" thing doesn't sit right with me. I'm not racist in the least. Do I take precautions? Yes. I walk on the other side of the street when I see two black men huddled over their cars whispering intently and glancing around shiftily on my side. Why would I want to get close to them if it's obvious they are up to no good? Oh WAIT... I did that with white dudes the other day. Not black dudes. Yeah. So it has NOTHING to do with race. If I'm in a bad neighborhood, I'm suspicious of anyone. If I'm taking a seat, I'll sit where there's an open seat in a convenient place. Obviously I would feel out of place in a black church because I WOULD be, at least by physical appearances, but that doesn't make me "subconsciously racist." And I'm attracted to women regardless of race. Your examples fail somewhat. Share this post Link to post
Posted October 17, 2011 Male homosexual (if he is white) is far more likely to be attracted to a white guy instead of a black one, because people tend to look for similarities (for themselves), Im not saying that 100% of the people will feel that way, Im just saying that most of the people do and that it happens on a subconscious level... Many experiments and researches have been done on the subject, we relate to and feel more comfortable with people who look like us.... Things I have listed above were examples of that, didnt claim all of them apply to everyone... those were just a few examples, not some universal rule for all... My point is that isn't a good example of 'innate racism', such as calling a male homosexual sexist against women simply because he's a homosexual. Share this post Link to post
Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) This whole "subconscious racism" thing doesn't sit right with me. I'm not racist in the least. Do I take precautions? Yes. I walk on the other side of the street when I see two black men huddled over their cars whispering intently and glancing around shiftily on my side. Why would I want to get close to them if it's obvious they are up to no good? Oh WAIT... I did that with white dudes the other day. Not black dudes. Yeah. So it has NOTHING to do with race. If I'm in a bad neighborhood, I'm suspicious of anyone. If I'm taking a seat, I'll sit where there's an open seat in a convenient place. Obviously I would feel out of place in a black church because I WOULD be, at least by physical appearances, but that doesn't make me "subconsciously racist." And I'm attracted to women regardless of race. Your examples fail somewhat. Exactly. Not everyone is racist. :/ Skin color isn't always the prejudicial factor. Personally, I know I'm a bit prejudiced against conservatives. I'm not outright mean to them, it's just subtle, but I'm willing to accept that and try to change it. I'm not racist however. This is almost an insult to me as I feel racism is below me. Again, I guess that's another prejudice, but that's how I feel. Edited October 17, 2011 by Packgoater Share this post Link to post
Posted October 17, 2011 Exactly. Not everyone is racist. :/ Skin color isn't always the prejudicial factor. Personally, I know I'm a bit prejudiced against conservatives. I'm not outright mean to them, it's just subtle, but I'm willing to accept that and try to change it. I'm not racist however. This is almost an insult to me as I feel racism is below me. Again, I guess that's another prejudice, but that's how I feel. You're prejudiced against me??? I'm SO utterly offended haha, jk. I agree. I don't base my opinions of people on anything other than THEM. Not their gender, not their race, not their accent, not their parents, not their job, not their car, etc. I know if people judged ME by those things, no one would ever care about me in the slightest. Share this post Link to post
Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) The only reason I said likely is because there are people out there who believe that God created people on their continents just as they are. I was being considerate, not stupid, just in case you were one of them. :/ Never claimed you were stupid.... I just said I was an atheist, didn't I? God is an invention if you are an atheist (you as in all atheists, not you as in you personally ) Anyway, God himself isn't an instinct, but the need to explain what can't is, and normally, for us, that involves making theories, like God or the Greek mythology. Curiosity and search for answers is indeed one of human instincts, but thats not what you were referring to in the original post... thats all As you said 'pack' I was more thinking wolves. It's common to see several different colors of wolves together. They don't segregate. Im pretty sure a pack of wolves would have zero problems tearing apart a wolf which was introduced from another continent (which would make it different from them) not sure though.... So if I sit next to someone with a beard on a subway instead of someone without, that means I'm facial hair-ist? Nope, it means you are petty I don't go to church. I don't feel out of place when I hang with my black friends and I'm the only white one. I feel fine with it because I accept them and they accept me. So, again, if I like a guy who has a beard instead of a guy without I'm facial hair- ist? Really? They are your friends, why would you feel uncomfortable with them ??? If you are in an unfamiliar place and the only white female you will feel uncomfortable (at least slightly, and no that doesnt apply to 100% of the people as well), in that situation most of the people would "relate to" another white person, if there arent any, then to the same gender... thats how it works... And honestly, I like black guys. :/ And white guys. I really don't have a preference. Nor do I care if their Asian. It doesn't matter to me. My attraction is more based on personality and intelligence. And certain accents. Certain accents I find attractive. You dont and its totally cool, but can you honestly say the same thing for majority of the people ? I dont really care about all that stuff, dated jewish/muslim girls, iranian, black, latin girls.... But that doesnt mean I dont acknowledge the fact that a black haired white girl applies more to me... Matter of fact I have brown eyes and even though eye color has nothing to do with personality I view brown eyed girls as more warm (personality wise), it happens coz I have brown eyes.... Subconscious does what it does.... Edited October 17, 2011 by The Evil Doer Share this post Link to post
Posted October 17, 2011 You dont and its totally cool, but can you honestly say the same thing for majority of the people ? I dont really care about all that stuff, dated jewish/muslim girls, iranian, black, latin girls.... But that doesnt mean I dont acknowledge the fact that a black haired white girl applies more to me... Matter of fact I have brown eyes and even though eye color has nothing to do with personality I view brown eyed girls as more warm (personality wise), it happens coz I have brown eyes.... Subconscious does what it does.... That has NOTHING to do with subconscious racism and everything to do with personal tastes. I find jet black hair on a pale skinned girl stunning. I'm a sucker for bright green eyes. That doesn't mean I don't like other types of girls or that I'm prejudiced against them. My last girlfriend had brown hair and brown eyes. Racism =/= simple personal preference like favorite colors and what you find most appealing about someone. Share this post Link to post
Posted October 17, 2011 You're prejudiced against me??? I'm SO utterly offended haha, jk. I agree. I don't base my opinions of people on anything other than THEM. Not their gender, not their race, not their accent, not their parents, not their job, not their car, etc. I know if people judged ME by those things, no one would ever care about me in the slightest. Mm, let me rephrase that. I'm prejudiced against crazily-conservative people who try to cram their opinions down my throat while sounding unintelligent and not even having a good argument. I like arguing, especially against Republicans because I find it entertaining. I really don't like it when their argument is basically, "Just because." People would hate me if they judged me by those things. They would think I'm some spoiled city brat. I have a D.C. accent and we have a good bit of money, you could say. God is an invention if you are an atheist (you as in all atheists, not you as in you personally ) In a way. He is an invention of the human's mind, but I wasn't talking about him specifically. :/ Curiosity and search for answers is indeed one of human instincts, but thats not what you were referring to in the original post... thats all This is what I said: God, in a sense, is part of human nature. For huge lengths of time us humans have created gods or such things to explain the in-explainable. And that's coming from an atheist. It's the same point. I wasn't just referring to him. Nope, it means you are petty How? They are your friends, why would you feel uncomfortable with them ??? If you are in an unfamiliar place and the only white female you will feel uncomfortable (at least slightly, and no that doesnt apply to 100% of the people as well), in that situation most of the people would "relate to" another white person, if there arent any, then to the same gender... thats how it works... Hell yeah I'd be uncomfortable! I'd be uncomfortable with white people! In RL, I'm pretty dang anti-social. You dont and its totally cool, but can you honestly say the same thing for majority of the people ? I dont really care about all that stuff, dated jewish/muslim girls, iranian, black, latin girls.... But that doesnt mean I dont acknowledge the fact that a black haired white girl applies more to me... Matter of fact I have brown eyes and even though eye color has nothing to do with personality I view brown eyed girls as more warm (personality wise), it happens coz I have brown eyes.... Subconscious does what it does.... That's just your preference, not a racist thing. Most people I know (besides the jerks in my class) don't care. I actually know a bunch of guys who like asians. Share this post Link to post
Posted October 17, 2011 Mm, let me rephrase that. I'm prejudiced against crazily-conservative people who try to cram their opinions down my throat while sounding unintelligent and not even having a good argument. I like arguing, especially against Republicans because I find it entertaining. I really don't like it when their argument is basically, "Just because." Oh okay, so at least I'm a crazily-conservative person who tries to cram opinions down people's throats while sounding intelligent hehe. (jk. I try to not do so much of the cramming.) Evil, all your examples are sort of superficial and don't go to show any sort of subconscious racism. Just personal taste and comfort levels based on personality. Racism is defined as 1. The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as... 2. Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief. Well, that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not I like girls with black hair or red now does it? And it doesn't have anything to do with sitting next to a black person or not on the subway, especially when my choice isn't based on race at all. So yeah. I completely disagree with the premise that "all people are racist on the inside to the x degree." Share this post Link to post
Posted October 17, 2011 Race? I don't care about someone's Race, I care about their attitude toward me, friends, animals, and the environent. We all look the same on the inside. Differnt on the outside. But who cares? It was deep, deep, right into the core of your sole that matters. Share this post Link to post
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