Adding "inbreed" mark & filter

[Fuzzbucket]

I honestly cannot see an inbred filter working - it would be desperately complicated to set up - not least tor dragons who have been killed and deadlined

https://dragcave.net/lineage/ZUrvr

 

sent to the wild  etc. But if it is so important to you - why not mark your own inbred dragons with some special marker ?

Or perhaps you might like to support this suggestion:  it would seem one way to achieve what you want, too.

 

 

[StarlightLion]

2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

An on site checker would be useful to those who don't want to open a tab for AOND, though.

 

I think this is the best option. It's an on-site tool - which reduces the playerbase's reliance on external tools, which is always good to have, but it doesn't overtly advertise any dragons as inbred or not and can be completely ignored and forgotten by those players who don't want to use it without negatively impacting your play in any way that I can see.

[Fuzzbucket]

9 minutes ago, StarlightLion said:

 

I think this is the best option. It's an on-site tool - which reduces the playerbase's reliance on external tools, which is always good to have, but it doesn't overtly advertise any dragons as inbred or not and can be completely ignored and forgotten by those players who don't want to use it without negatively impacting your play in any way that I can see.

 

I agree. But in the absence of one - why not mark the inbred dragons on your own scroll - that seems the easy option for now.

[Shizuku-chan]

1 hour ago, Erra said:

For many players IT IS important information and its reason for this suggestion - becouse there are many players who cares. And even if you can use Allure to check "how many", still its imposible for external site to give as helpful filter on breeding page. 

 

Tbh I have yet to see any compelling argument that has the 'inbredness' of a dragon being important information beyond it being 'some people don't like inbred lineages' or 'some people like inbred lineages' which all boils down to personal preferences that offsite inbred checkers fulfill the need of. An inbred dragon does not breed any worse or better than any other similar but non-inbred dragon to my knowledge and none of them have different sprites for being inbred. A breeding filter would certainly be very convenient though (I would personally prefer a search UI like the one we have for fertility), as long as the site keeps a neutral stance towards inbreeding.

 

If TJ's official stance is still relevant, I don't see an on-site inbred checker being a thing as 'inbredness' is largely a player preference thing and should be left for players to deal with - which we already have with AoND's inbred checker. It's similar to how certain lineage types (checker, stair, spiral etc.) aren't explicitly marked as such in-game - why should inbred dragons be any different?

[Ripple_Tiger]

1 hour ago, Shizuku-chan said:

which we already have with AoND's inbred checker.

The fact that you keep bringing this up, and the fact that it exists and works with no problem, proves that there is a want and a way for this to happen. Many new players probably won't know this exists, I didn't know until this debate. An in-game filter or tool of any kind will probably be preferred by anyone who wants that information and won't hurt your gameplay in any way, shape, or form. 

[Fuzzbucket]

2 hours ago, Shizuku-chan said:

 

Tbh I have yet to see any compelling argument that has the 'inbredness' of a dragon being important information beyond it being 'some people don't like inbred lineages' or 'some people like inbred lineages' which all boils down to personal preferences that offsite inbred checkers fulfill the need of. An inbred dragon does not breed any worse or better than any other similar but non-inbred dragon to my knowledge and none of them have different sprites for being inbred. A breeding filter would certainly be very convenient though (I would personally prefer a search UI like the one we have for fertility), as long as the site keeps a neutral stance towards inbreeding.

 

If TJ's official stance is still relevant, I don't see an on-site inbred checker being a thing as 'inbredness' is largely a player preference thing and should be left for players to deal with - which we already have with AoND's inbred checker. It's similar to how certain lineage types (checker, stair, spiral etc.) aren't explicitly marked as such in-game - why should inbred dragons be any different?

This, very much. And also - as I have already said - if it IS an issue - a player who minds that much can tag their own inbred dragons with a marker. And tell all their friends about AOND

[Fateweaver]

Another site I play Lioden has a thing in lineages that says, "x amount of instances of inbreeding" for a lion. Inbreeding also has no impact on the game there, it's just a marker for those who don't want inbred lions. Don't see why something similar couldn't be enabled here. It's just a marking saying there's inbreeding present.

 

So I'll support.

[Stripey]

I'll add my tally to those who stand by TJ's previous statement. 
There doesn't need to be markers stating weather or not a dragon is inbred.  I say this as someone who dabbles in all sorts of lineages and has special bred my dragons upon request for other's lineages.  I also say this as someone who is on generation 87 of my very inbred line.

On the other paw, it would be neat to be able to set filters for breeding, not just "do these dragons share a parent x gens down the line" but to select only CB, or 2nd gen (or n'th gen), or specific breeds, for ease of hunting through large scrolls

[Ripple_Tiger]

2 hours ago, Fateweaver said:

Another site I play Lioden has a thing in lineages that says, "x amount of instances of inbreeding" for a lion.

This is actually the exact same site I was referring to earlier, I just forgot the exact wording, thank you. And no, there doesn't need to be marker, but if you are going to try and argue that way, there is no need for things like BSAs either. It's a qol thing for people who play that way, and people who don't can ignore it.

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, Stripey said:

I'll add my tally to those who stand by TJ's previous statement. 
There doesn't need to be markers stating weather or not a dragon is inbred.  I say this as someone who dabbles in all sorts of lineages and has special bred my dragons upon request for other's lineages.  I also say this as someone who is on generation 87 of my very inbred line.

On the other paw, it would be neat to be able to set filters for breeding, not just "do these dragons share a parent x gens down the line" but to select only CB, or 2nd gen (or n'th gen), or specific breeds, for ease of hunting through large scrolls

 

Like the filters for fertility, where you can select by generation - #2g, for instance. That would work.

 

16 minutes ago, Ripple_Tiger said:

This is actually the exact same site I was referring to earlier, I just forgot the exact wording, thank you. And no, there doesn't need to be marker, but if you are going to try and argue that way, there is no need for things like BSAs either. It's a qol thing for people who play that way, and people who don't can ignore it.

 

With BSAs, you don't have to see anything about it all the time if you don't use it. A "warning" or "marker" for inbreeding would be in your face all the time. Now, marking your own shows that info to you and to no-one else, unless they choose to view your scroll - on which you have every right to do whatever you like. I don't much like to see things like "2nd gen red from green" as a dragon's name - but I defend to the death your right to call it that.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Fuzzbucket

[Ripple_Tiger]

32 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

A "warning" or "marker" for inbreeding would be in your face all the time.

This is why I'm leaning closer to having a different area to check these kinds of things with so people who don't care don't have to interact with it, but it still being on site and having something in the help page to direct people to it.

[Skadi]

Perhaps a better solution is allowing a proper description/tagging system?

 

That way all playstyles can tag dragons on their scroll and search dragons by tags... especially when breeding lol.

 

I wouldn't have to name my dragons things like "CBNF101" if I could just tag them and find them while searching for breeding.

 

Which is actually my reason for wanting the inbred filters in the first place-- it's part of a larger issue with site UI.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Skadi

[KageSora]

I'd argue more in favor of an on-site checker that you don't need to touch if you don't want to, but I'd also maybe caution against using the word "inbred" because it unavoidably carries negative connotations and may mistakenly make new players think there's some sort of consequence for having an inbred dragon other than some people not wanting it in trade (which goes for way more than inbred--if you have messy but non-inbred line there's plenty of people who won't take that, if you have a checker when they want a PB, if you have a stair or spiral when they want even, etc.).  I'd suggest something more "X out of Y ancestors are unique".  In an inbred dragon, X will be less than Y because there will be one or more repeating ancestors.  In a "clean" dragon the numbers would be the same.  It still run the risk of people viewing it negatively, but it avoids the specific word with the most blatant negative connotations and also has the benefit of allowing you to see how many times there's repetition.  (An alternative could be "X out of Y ancestors are repeated" where a "clean" would have X = 0)

 

Another alternative would be an opt-in feature that's only visible to you.  So if you have it enabled you can see inbred dragons marked as such, if you have it disabled you won't see it.  Or have the mark visible to everyone but have it being opt-in and only shows up for dragons on scrolls that have the setting enabled--that way people who don't want anything to do with it can continue to not have their dragons marked in any way.  Either way I'd want a mark opt-in rather than opt-out because having it opt-in makes it feel more like the information is by default important rather than being info that is important only on a personal level to individual players.

 

I dislike the idea of an automatic marker on every dragon regardless of if players care about inbreeding or not.

 

Also, however, I prefer the idea of some sort of on-site checking tool because the same player may only care about inbreeding in certain circumstances!  If it's a lineage I never play to try and use for gifting or trading, I don't care if it's got some inbreeding if it's just for me personally.  If it's a lineage I want to use for trading or gifting, I often prefer to make it clean.  And some lineages I very deliberately want to be inbred.  I wouldn't want or need every single one of my dragons to have a marker specifying if it's inbred or not.

 

That said, I think ANY checker or mark or anything that were added needs to come with a very clear, very blatant "this has no mechanical effect on the game and is strictly player preference, absolutely nothing bad will happen to a dragon or breeding chances if it's inbred no matter how much" notification on it.

[Fateweaver]

Going from the Lioden angle again maybe we could have a toggle added to the settings to remove the inbreeding thing from the lineage page? Then folks who want it have it and folks who don't can opt out? Then it doesn't effect playstyle unless you want it to?

 

I dunno just a thought. >-<

[KageSora]

1 hour ago, Fateweaver said:

Going from the Lioden angle again maybe we could have a toggle added to the settings to remove the inbreeding thing from the lineage page? Then folks who want it have it and folks who don't can opt out? Then it doesn't effect playstyle unless you want it to?

 

I dunno just a thought. >-<

 

I'd rather the reverse--those who want can opt-in.  Mostly because we'd be adding a feature that didn't exist, it's more annoying to have to turn off a feature you don't want than it is to turn on a newly added feature you do want IMO.

 

But either way, it being toggle-able would be key if it were marked on the lineage itself

[HeatherMarie]

On 10/11/2022 at 4:13 AM, Shizuku-chan said:

Tbh I have yet to see any compelling argument that has the 'inbredness' of a dragon being important information beyond it being 'some people don't like inbred lineages' or 'some people like inbred lineages' which all boils down to personal preferences

 

I'm coming in a bit late here, but agree with this so much. First of all inbreeding has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself, it doesn't affect dragons in any way or cause anything to happen at all. It's *users* who put an emphasis on it and make it negative or undesirable. But also, if the argument for this is 'a lot of people prefer non-inbred lineages', why is it only those specific people that are important? What about all the people who prefer even-gen lineages, or staircase lineages, or even Dorkface or Thuwed descendants? Why should a user-preference-only feature be added just for one specific instance of 'some users prefer this' when there are so many other things with lineages that some users prefer too? 

 

On 10/11/2022 at 3:24 PM, KageSora said:

That said, I think ANY checker or mark or anything that were added needs to come with a very clear, very blatant "this has no mechanical effect on the game and is strictly player preference, absolutely nothing bad will happen to a dragon or breeding chances if it's inbred no matter how much" notification on it.

 

Agreed! 

 

As for the counter-suggestions in this thread, I've supported breeding filters for years, that's something that can have *many* different uses and would be extremely helpful all around.  I'd also very much like a real tagging system, that too has been suggested multiple times over the years and would be helpful in many different ways.

[StarlightLion]

I really think that any on-site feature that makes it easier to manage breeding lines would work to fulfill the desire for an inbred marker or anything else. Just ways to mark our own dragons to make it easier to manage big and/or multiple breeding lines. I myself keep a very large number of spreadsheets in my GoogleDrive to manage all my scroll information and breeding projects and yes, it works just fine, but it is somewhat annoying that I have to externally manage all the information I need as a project breeder, and constantly cross-reference everything before doing anything. Filters and tagging would make it easy to track our own dragons, including but not limited to inbreeding if it's a relevant variable to us.

[KageSora]

The only real thing I see an issue with for putting in an on-site tool is...

 

Why does inbreeding get to be special, and get highlighted with it's own checker?  What if somebody has a messy lineage and wants to check if it has a specific breed of dragon in it somewhere, or if somebody is working on breeding a dragon that has every viable breed in it's lineage?  That would warrant a checker to see if a specific breed is there, too.  Or, as @HeatherMarie pointed out, what if somebody wants to check if they have a descendant of a specific lineage?  Sure that's easy to check if you have a short, clean line but if it's very long and/or messy that's going to be just as hard to check as trying to manually check for an inbred.

 

So, why would inbreeding--which has no mechanical impact on the game--deserve it's own on-site marking/checker/etc.?

 

It would really have to be a lot more of a general filter for lineages otherwise it inevitably ends up appearing to put special weight on inbred/not inbred simply by virtue of drawing official attention to the matter.  There's no real way to avoid that--even a clear "this does not actually do anything bad" warning can't quite shake the fact that it would be drawing official attention to it which will impact how players view the matter, even if only subtly.

 

tl;dr it's the nature of people to give greater weight to things that seem to be addressed by positions of authority.  If the site Official Recognizes inbreeding via adding a mark or even a checker, that draws notice to the matter even if it comes with a clear "this is entirely player preference" warning.  It's a subtle thing, but it can and does influence how people think of things once Official Notice has been taken of them, so singling inbreeding out with a special marker or tracker will inevitably carry the connotation that it's "bad" even if that isn't intended.

Edited October 13, 2022 by KageSora

[Moriaty]

I like the x out of y ancestors are unique idea, it's pure stats that one can use to deduce the answer they want (inbreed vs not inbreed). User defined tag (kind of like group but more obvious and easier to filter with while breeding for example) works too

 

Do not like the idea of actually having something that mark a dragon as "inbred" officially, like others have said it's going to have a negative connotation 

[Fuzzbucket]

6 hours ago, KageSora said:

The only real thing I see an issue with for putting in an on-site tool is...

 

Why does inbreeding get to be special, and get highlighted with it's own checker? 

 

This, so much. I was playing a game here just the other day where I needed a lineage (of ANY kind) with three specific breeds in it. It took me AGES to find one in a 24th gen dragon. I demand a filter that will do that for me

 

6 hours ago, KageSora said:

tl;dr it's the nature of people to give greater weight to things that seem to be addressed by positions of authority.  If the site Official Recognizes inbreeding via adding a mark or even a checker, that draws notice to the matter even if it comes with a clear "this is entirely player preference" warning.  It's a subtle thing, but it can and does influence how people think of things once Official Notice has been taken of them, so singling inbreeding out with a special marker or tracker will inevitably carry the connotation that it's "bad" even if that isn't intended.