Adding short gen old Holidays without adding CBs

[cyradis4]

The Goal:

Come up with a way to get more low-gen old Holidays into the game without giving out more CBs.

 

 

~~~

 

As you wait beneath the bright stars, outside a lair. You've been told that in that lair resides a Holly dragon, and it being the Christmas season, you are determined to steal an egg from its clutch. The hours pass, and you can hear the Holly in the cave. You are certain there is a nest, and the coveted egg awaits only the parent taking leave for a short time.

 

Then, a piercing call, and one of you dragons cries out to you, distressed that you have been missing for hours this Holiday season. Cursing your luck, you reassure your dragon that all is well. Then, your dragon stiffens, as a low growl comes from behind you. You freeze, terror coursing through your veins. For you know, that if you turn around, you will see the wild Holly dragon who's egg you had come to steal.

 

With a quick cry, your dragon knocks you down, and challenges the Holly. Off they go! You take off at a run, for your home, praying that once you are out of danger, your dragon will be able to break off and return home.

 

Some days later, your dragon returns. Cradled in their paws is a Holly egg. It seems that you were wrong, and that Holly hadn't mated yet. As you accept the coveted egg from your dragon, you ponder the season's mysteries....

 

~~~

 

 

 

Details on this are still really sketchy, it was just an idea that came to me.

 

What I have so far:

Action: Breed a dragon of your choice to a "wild" (non-existent, actually) dragon of a seasonal breed

- The "wild' dragon is one that is not and has never been on any user's scroll. Its some random dragon the system made up. It would show as a "wild dragon"

- This action would cover ALL Holiday breeds.... So you could pick a Holly.... or a Yulebuck, but could not do both the same year

 

Results: You have a chance at getting ONE egg from the "wild" dragon and your dragon. It is a 2nd gen egg!

- During the Holiday week, it would be a Holiday dragon. The 3 weeks after the Holiday, you can get a non-Holiday egg from a CB Holiday.

- Cooldown for the action is a scroll-wide 1 week

- Only available 4 weeks for each Holiday season: Breeding week, and 3 weeks after the Holiday.

 

 

 

 

That's the basics. Now, a few more thoughts....

 

Failure Rate:

If this is just governed by normal breeding ratios, then everyone will get a 2nd gen Holly that first year. So, there has to be a chance of failure (ie, the breeding not taking place) or some other highly random element. But too high of a failure rate, and getting a common later would be problematic.

 

One thought is, maybe the Holiday in the cave is random. So for Christmas, it might be a Holly.... Or a Mistletoe. You can't know until you try breeding. That would add a random element, but also a lot of frustration.

 

Another thought is to have a fixed chance that they breed, with normal ratios governing IF they breed. Maybe having a fixed rate like, 10% chance the dragons breed would work best? Granted, your chances of getting an egg the next 3 weeks would be really bad, but... For instance, a 2nd gen from Holly would be quite valuable!

 

Either way, this would add the ability of ANYONE to have a shot at getting a 2nd gen from any Holiday... Without adding in new CBs, which would be a balancing nightmare.

 

Any other ideas? Pros? cons? thoughts?

 

Cheers!

C4.

Edited June 28, 2015 by cyradis4

[Snowytoshi]

2Gs from Holidays aren't difficult to come by though. The AP is flooded with Holiday eggs and there are plenty of 2Gs. I've even caught a 2G Holly in the AP. Everyone definitely has a shot at getting them for any breed already.

[cyradis4]

2Gs from Holidays aren't difficult to come by though. The AP is flooded with Holiday eggs and there are plenty of 2Gs. I've even caught a 2G Holly in the AP. Everyone definitely has a shot at getting them for any breed already.

For now, yes. The problem is for the future. More and more CB Holly owners are leaving the site, and unless HMs are added back to the raffle... There will be no new Holly blood.

 

A couple of years ago, getting a 2nd gen Holly was brutally hard, and even now, building lineages beyond 3rd gen is brutally hard.

 

Sooner or later... If no new CBs, or another way to get 2nd gens isn't added, we'll be facing the extinction of all low gen Hollies. So! There are several ideas out there. Personally, I have no desire for a 2nd gen Holly, the fact that I have just 2 adult Hollies is by my choice. But balancing the adding new CB ideas is hard, and it seems the HMs for the raffles probably won't continue.

 

So here's another idea to consider, to keep low gen old Holidays around.

 

Cheers!

C4.

 

 

[Syphoneira]

It's an interesting idea.

 

TJ has always been against the spontaneous creation of dragons, but this would be a temporary manifestation, so might be regarded differently, dunno.

 

How would the parentage be assigned on the Holiday side?

 

Would special codes be issued but then unavailable for use by future dragons?

 

A generic 'Wild Holly' designation might be associated with inbreeding, even though the dragons wouldn't actually exist, limiting lineages... and it might be very disappointing for people to have their one chance at a second-gen used on a dragon other than a Holly, when they have an annual chance at a 2nd gen from virtually any other Holiday.

 

CB Hollies, with very few initially given out and only a few of those few original CB Holly owners still active, darned near went extinct until a literal few more were given out as HMs on the Raffle - and the iconic Holly means specifically DC Christmas to a lot of people.

 

I would think that Christmas, a depressing time for many, and a holiday celebrated by a number of people only on DC, would be a bad time for added frustration, and a good time for all the people who won't be winning Prize dragons to have something to cherish.

 

Not sure why there would be a problem with everyone having a 2nd gen Holly for Christmas, and it would certainly open lots of lovely and often year-round lineage possibilities.

 

 

Also not sure why adding in new CBs of older and diminishing Holidays would be a balancing nightmare, as I wouldn't think that ratios would apply, or need to apply, to Holidays, which can only reproduce themselves once a year?

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I'd really rather just add a new way to get CBs.

[KrazyKarp]

I'd really rather just add a new way to get CBs.

This is exactly how I feel.

[AnanoKimi]

I'd really rather just add a new way to get CBs.

I have to concur with this as well...

 

It sounds overly complicated and Syph brought up many good points. Technically this wild dragon would be the sole and single parent to all the 2nd gens that come from it regardless of mate. So inbred is gonna be a big thing. Though there are many, including my self, that dont mind, I know there will be many who do. Its better to work out ways for current users to obtain CB's of their own and help keep the holly pool a decent size instead of letting it decrease to only one holly breeding all the babies.

[danicast]

I'd really rather just add a new way to get CBs.

I agree.

[Ylvanne]

I'd really rather just add a new way to get CBs.

I agree :S

[RecycledHeart]

I rather just have the cbs but some spriters are against having their holidays rereleased.

[Syphoneira]

I rather just have the cbs but some spriters are against having their holidays rereleased.

 

 

 

I didn't know that some of the spriters were against it... this sucks - do we know for which dragons?

[RecycledHeart]

 

 

I didn't know that some of the spriters were against it... this sucks - do we know for which dragons?

I believe piemaster was one of them. But fiona was okay with releasing hers.

 

I might be wrong since they said it a while ago in a different thread but that's what I remember.

[AnanoKimi]

I believe piemaster was one of them. But fiona was okay with releasing hers.

 

I might be wrong since they said it a while ago in a different thread but that's what I remember.

I think that might have been in association to the store suggestion?

 

Isnt Pie Master the creator of the Holiday rerealease thread?

[RecycledHeart]

I think that might have been in association to the store suggestion?

 

Isnt Pie Master the creator of the Holiday rerealease thread?

I'm not sure. As I said I remember it happening awhile ago and my memory isn't that great. All I know for sure is that there are/is spriter(s) against having their cb holidays rereleased.

[Syphoneira]

Some would be better than none - any objections from Silvanon (Hollies) Komodo Gallant, Kuraianubis, Marrionetta (Yulebucks) Dis, JaziandCo, TheAntimonyElement (SnowAngels) LadyLyzar (RibbonDancers)?

 

These are the oldest and therefore currently most likely to diminish in CB form, from the oldest up, although the Hollies were, of course, almost extinct from the beginning...

[RecycledHeart]

Some would be better than none - any objections from Silvanon (Hollies) Komodo Gallant, Kuraianubis, Marrionetta (Yulebucks) Dis, JaziandCo, TheAntimonyElement (SnowAngels) LadyLyzar (RibbonDancers)?

 

These are the oldest and therefore currently most likely to diminish in CB form, from the oldest up, although the Hollies were, of course, almost extinct from the beginning...

Are they all even still active? If not that could be a big issue because we don't know if Tj has the jurisdiction to rerelease a holiday sprite if its spriter(s) go inactive.

[Pixxelation]

I was against CBs being added in a shop where they'd be easily available for an entire month--that reduces their worth. I later did realize that decreasing low-gen availability is an issue that needs some sort of solution, though, so I proposed the uncommon holiday rereleases as an alternative that doesn't destroy the current economy or make holidays into glorified seasonals.

 

I'm not really sure how I feel about this solution. The vastly increased amount of bred holidays will undoubtedly go on to strongly affect multiclutches, and simply handing everyone a second gen feels like it cheapens them. I guess I'd be okay with it in the long run, but it's not a solution I'm particularly fond of.

Edited June 29, 2015 by PieMaster

[Jazeki]

Would any of these breedings multiclutch (resulting in extras going to the AP)? Or do we just get a single egg out of it?

 

I think if this were implemented, the resulting offspring should be un-tradeable.

 

I'm still meh about it right now. I think as more discussion happens, I'll form a stronger opinion either way.

[AnanoKimi]

I knew it~

 

I am actually not for the whole thing about holidays avaiable to buy for the whole month. I think a better solution to that is th either have them available the week after the new holiday release and only for a week. But thats for that thread.

 

Aside from just handing everyone a second gen, as mentioned this idea greatly increases the amount of inbreds that would happen. Blood swaps would be hard if not impossible to come by the less and less users there are active with certain CB Holidays. As such in the long rung any offspring from this idea would be inbred causing an issue for those strongly against or just not fond of inbreds.

[FoxintheBox4]

I would still rather have a way to be able to obtain CB's of all past dragons than lineaged ones

Even if we get 2nd gens, people would still rather trade for 2nd gens than 3rd gens.. It has always been that way.. I mean I've seen nobody publicly looking for a 3rd gen Holly or anything else for Xmas and other holidays

[Syphoneira]

I was against CBs being added in a shop where they'd be easily available for an entire month--that reduces their worth. I later did realize that decreasing low-gen availability is an issue that needs some sort of solution, though, so I proposed the uncommon holiday rereleases as an alternative that doesn't destroy the current economy or make holidays into glorified seasonals.

 

I'm not really sure how I feel about this solution. The vastly increased amount of bred holidays will undoubtedly go on to strongly affect multiclutches, and simply handing everyone a second gen feels like it cheapens them. I guess I'd be okay with it in the long run, but it's not a solution I'm particularly fond of.

 

 

 

 

Might be more a question of better bred Holidays than all that many more.

 

A lot of us focus more on breeding the best lineages and given the opportunity, will replace once acceptable lineages with nicer ones in our to-be-bred lists, rather than breeding a desired and hard-to-come-by sprite of a currently passable-because-hard-to-come-by (and hence better than nothing for somebody out there) but of a longer/imperfect lineage because we lack better, which I assume accounts for a great number of the messies bred of such sprites, beyond those produced by people simply not yet lineage-aware.

 

 

 

 

Edit: RecycledHeart, is it possible that some spriters initially against re-Release may have changed their minds when considering that their lovely sprites might be ultimately reduced to few or no CBs/low-gens and come over time to be generally regarded as typically messies/long lineages not worth breeding by most?

 

I dunno, of course, but this might be why you seem to recall one being against it who's now for it, although of course only that person can say.

 

 

Also, *with the caveat of my lousy memory and in the hope that someone recalls this more clearly than I do*: I've seen it mentioned quite some time back that when asking permission for at least some things having relation to sprites (think perhaps? over the suggestion of having Bright Pinks re-Released?) that if contact had been attempted several times with no response from the spriter, that it should be OK to go ahead, although if I recall correctly, that had to do with just making the Suggestion.

 

I seem to recall that this was because if a spriter has been inactive for some time and is utterly unreachable, it might be for very sad reasons and s/he might have thought it nice to at least have her/his art continue and be appreciated, so s/he wouldn't also be forgotten.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Syphoneira

[cyradis4]

I knew it~

 

I am actually not for the whole thing about holidays avaiable to buy for the whole month. I think a better solution to that is th either have them available the week after the new holiday release and only for a week. But thats for that thread.

 

Aside from just handing everyone a second gen, as mentioned this idea greatly increases the amount of inbreds that would happen. Blood swaps would be hard if not impossible to come by the less and less users there are active with certain CB Holidays. As such in the long rung any offspring from this idea would be inbred causing an issue for those strongly against or just not fond of inbreds.

- Not everyone would get a 2nd gen Holly. One of the points that needs to be discussed is "failure rate". I'm thinking, at best, a 10% chance of a successful egg. That's 1 in 10 people get a single egg that season. There is NO WAY to get a 2nd egg of any breed via this method during the breeding season! And that rate may well be too high. Discussion is needed.

 

- No multi-clutches, so no extra eggs. Each person has a small chance to get one, single egg that Holiday season from this.

 

- Who said they would all have the same parent? Not I! In fact, all I said was that the parent would be "a wild dragon". My thoughts on it are, it'd be a dragon with a randomly generated code. So your egg would be the only offspring of that "wild dragon". Ever.

 

 

 

Lastly.... I thought I was pretty clear that this was not a finished idea, and there needed to be discussion. So.... Instead of just saying "I'd rather CBs" (I'd rather them too, but we don't always get what we want), how about discussing the things you don't like about it? What I, personally, want is to have the HMs come back with provisions for Halloween and Valentines. But that's not looking good. The Store idea has serious issues and objections from some of the artists, and the CBs in the Biomes idea has some really nasty balancing issues, with the chance to boomerang HARD on availability of easy to catch low gens in favor of brutally hard to catch CBs.

 

We are NOT guaranteed to get more CBs. The idea with this is to come up with an alternative, to give TJ even more options to choose from. Maybe its not your favorite... but if he won't implement the others, but might consider this...

 

Cheers!

C4.

[AnanoKimi]

Sofor every successful attempt a random code would have to be generated for that parent dragon as well as one for the egg. True no two offspring would have the same parent, but if we're gonna generate a random code for some wild dragon, why not generate that code for a dragon someone can own. I think its better to give people a chance at having some way to obtain a CB of their own instead of only getting second gens from some wild dragon.

 

As nice as this idea is, I don't think it will sate as many people. There will still be many who will want to some how be able to get their hands on old holidays as CB's, especially for those like me who don't really like or care for lineages.

[olympe]

Somehow, I don't like it.

 

First of all - and I'm aware this is a slippery slope argument and thus not very valid - I feel that breeding with "wild" hollies isn't something to be desired. If we can breed with "wild" hollies, why not with "wild" golds, "wild" bright pinks or "wild" frills?

 

Second, I hate the idea of random chance. Making this kind of breeding only available to a certain part of the player base is like another raffle. Either you get lucky, or you don't. After five years, there will be players with 5 2nd gen hollies from that suggestion - and others with none at all. I really don't like what that will do to the site.

 

Personally, I prefer a re-release for people who don't have the old holidays yet, or a shop idea. But definitely not this.

[Jazeki]

Do you get one chance for breeding? Or you can try breeding as many times as you have X mates for? Like say for example I have extra dragons that I don't have plans for. Can I try three consecutive times for breeding a second gen holiday? Or do I get one shot and that's it?