DC Lore AMA

[TJ09]

humanans? =p

I've been trying to think of a label for them.

 

If anything, there's a derogatory term for them, because most cultures frown upon the process.

[Obscure_Trash]

I've been trying to think of a label for them.

 

If anything, there's a derogatory term for them, because most cultures frown upon the process.

I've amused myself far too much with humanans, but I look forward to hearing official lore terms if they're ever decided upon!

[Nerei]

If anything, there's a derogatory term for them, because most cultures frown upon the process.

But why? I think some aspects of that might be cool... becoming more "at one with nature" and stuff. I guess it could be taboo, or just humanity wanting to stay the same.

[TJ09]

But why? I think some aspects of that might be cool... becoming more "at one with nature" and stuff. I guess it could be taboo, or just humanity wanting to stay the same.

For similar reasons to why racism exists.

 

Not that it should exist, but it does.

[Dirtytabs]

Well, the world isn't perfect.

 

I've amused myself far too much with humanans, but I look forward to hearing official lore terms if they're ever decided upon!

Herk has suggested "mantants". Mutants + "(hu)man".

Edited June 10, 2015 by dirtytabs

[Avarule]

Okay, I love genetics and intend to major in them, so all this talk of mana mutation inspired me to check if something like that is even remotely possible. I’m hardly an expert at this stuff so remember to take everything I’m about to say with a grain of salt.

 

The way I understand it there are 3 main types of radiation: UVA, UVB and ionizing. The one we’re looking for is ionizing (which is basically the kind of radiation that comes from substances rather than the sun). According to radical.org, “The name [ionizing radiation] is appropriate because the high speed electrons (beta rays) passing through living tissue actually rip negatively charged electrons from atoms, leaving positively charged ions. Such electrons in turn ionize other atoms until finally all the initial energy of the high speed electron is dissipated… Many chemical bonds between atoms are shattered in addition to the ionization produced.”

 

I know that sounds like a bunch of science-y gibberish, so let’s use an analogy. The radiation is like shrapnel tearing apart the “architecture,” or highly organized chemical substances, within cells. This organization is very, VERY important and ruining it like that can injure or even kill a cell. If the cell merely sustains injury, there’s a chance it will still be able to divide, and the daughter cells it creates could inherit that injury. This is why, over a long period of time, one injured cell could singlehandedly cause a deformity like cancer.

 

So how in GoN’s name does this relate to DC? Well, from what TJ has said so far it doesn’t sound like mana radiation leads to cancer or poor health, so we can assume that it’s different from ionizing radiation. It also doesn’t fit with UVA or UVB radiation, though I’ll spare you the lengthy explanations on those. So we’ve hit a dead end here; whatever mana does to humanity is definitely not like earthly radiation.

 

Let’s try diverging a bit from science. After all, mana radiation is clearly in a category of its own and is, by definition, magical. Since it’s most similar to ionizing radiation, we’ll use that as a base. To achieve the magical effects we want without causing any serious damage, we’ll need to make up something other than electrons (or “shrapnel”) for mana to shoot through its victims. For the sake of this explanation we’ll call those things magic particles. I really have no idea how Valkemarian magic works or if it has anything to do with particles, but if TJ likes this explanation then naturally he can change them to whatever he wants.

 

So, once a human has come into contact with mana it’s safe to assume that they’ve also encountered some of those magic particles. The particles, like electrons in ionizing radiation, would pass through their tissue. However, instead of ripping through the cells like shrapnel, the magic particles would either safely inject themselves into them or casually be absorbed by them. Either way, they’d wind up in their cytoplasm. This is where my shallow understanding of science runs out, so what happens from here is probably going to be completely illogical. Then again this IS magic we’re talking about, so it was bound to get crazy somewhere.

 

From the cytoplasm the magic particles seek out the cell’s DNA. Once they find it they begin distorting it. What exactly they do depends on what the resulting mana mutant is supposed to be like (so basically it’s up to TJ). The now-corrupted cells would divide and spread through the host like cancer until their genetic code has been completely altered. Of course these alterations would probably have to be very slight in the first generation and grow as more children are born and raised near mana. Additionally, the extent of the genetic alterations could depend on how close to it the humans are (i.e. civilizations that rarely but consistently make contact with life mana would develop green-tinted skin while those that are constantly near it would start to grow leaves or something). This would leave some space for variation and natural selection, though as with everything I’ve stated so far it’s entirely up to TJ.

 

As for the dilemma of non-altered humans, there could be something like “mana antibodies” in each human’s cells that are specially designed to eliminate magic particles. I imagine they’d probably be able to prevent any extreme mutation as long as you didn’t spend a ton of time near mana. Also, if its radioactive properties are well-known amongst civilized humans then they’d probably know to avoid it or at least take preventative measures when handling it. Isolated tribes, however, wouldn’t understand these things and could wind up exposing themselves to mana for generations, leading to the humanans/mantants/whatever they're called.

 

As for the ability to reverse the effect of mana alterations (which TJ mentioned in an earlier post), that would also probably have to rely on magic. I mean, if magic particles can selectively alter a human’s DNA (which would take a HUGE amount of caution and skill), then why wouldn’t they be able to unalter it? Obviously there’d have to be some sort of spell or something used to swap the effects and it sounds like it would be excruciatingly painful if you were super mutated, but it seems like it should be doable.

 

…Wow, this turned out WAY longer than I anticipated. I’d make a tl;dr thing but I’m tired and don’t even know where to begin. Anyway, this is just my take on things, and remember to take all of my “science” with a grain of salt. XP

[Herk]

Well, the world isn't perfect.

 

 

Herk has suggested "mantants". Mutants + "(hu)man".

Actually the man comes from mana: mana-mutants = mantants

[FiveSix]

I think if we're going to try and look at this from a real-world science stance, some kind of symbiotic or parasitic micro-organism co-evolving with the host species would work better as a mana model than anything that would affect host DNA on the single-individual scale. But really there isn't a model even vaguely resembling anything scientific that wouldn't have gaping holes anyway

[FiveSix]

Hypothetical example to frame some questions I have, assuming I'm not missing some major points in my base assumptions:

arbitrarily defined year 0:

Tribe A, a large group of people with no significant existing mana transformation, migrates due to some natural disaster to a new home Place Z, which brings them into near-constant/daily (if not necessarily close) transformation proximity of a source of Life Mana.

 

year 5000:

Still in place Z, Tribe A has some degree of transformation as a result of this proximity. Would it be uniform between tribe members? Would it be uniform within a tribe member over the course of their lifetime? Would a new untransformed adult arrival from a far-off tribe C become transformed to the extent tribe A's first adults were shortly after year 0, or more to the extent tribe A are currently? Relatedly, has the mana source changed/intensified/evolved in line with the changes it's wrought in the humans? A portion of Tribe A moves away together, for whatever reason, and settles in place Y with no significant mana proximity, becoming tribe B.

 

year 10,000:

Tribe B still in Place Y, Tribe A still in place Z. Is degree of transformation consistent within tribes between individuals? Are tribe A more transformed than they were? Has transformation progressed, regressed or remained constant within tribe B, and has it done so equally between individuals?

 

Overall, are these the timescales we're thinking? what would be the result of, at any time-point, a member of either tribe A or B having a child with a member of a community exposed to dark mana for thousands of years? Does becoming transformed confer upon an individual the ability to reduce their own transformation intentionally as part of the obtained magic, and is that reduction persistent to the next generation? Would a member of tribe B moving to tribe A become transformed fast/to a greater extent than a member of tribe C doing the same? At any point would a tribe A or B member moving to tribe C's home have the potential to cause any degree of transformation of tribe C's adults?

Edited June 10, 2015 by ObsessedWithCats

[Dewdropmon]

Not much. Vampirism in Vampire dragons has a biological explanation (a virus injected in an egg that allows for a means of asexual reproduction), so none of the strange behaviors that arose mostly from superstition are needed. Vampire dragons are probably actually sterile, though, regardless of their on-site behavior.

Well this is just a thought but the rabies virus does cause hydrophobia in the one infected so who's to say there's not a small neurologic component to the vampire virus that causes an aversion to garlic or sunlight even if those things don't actually kill or even harm the infected dragon?

 

Also, does rabies exist on Valkemare? If so would it affect dragons too if they ere bitten by a rabid creature? Do dragons ever suffer from intestinal parasites?

[TJ09]

Hypothetical example to frame some questions I have, assuming I'm not missing some major points in my base assumptions:

The time scale is pretty off, but I'll continue with the rest of the questions anyways. Check out things about "geological time scales" for more of what I'm getting at. E.g. this page makes the claim that "modern humans" have been around (relatively) unchanged for at least 11,000 years. For any significant changes to occur, you'd be need very very very long periods of time, and probably complete isolation from other humans to prevent the mixing I talked about.

 

It's pretty safe to say human society in Valkemare has existed for less than the amount of time required for significant evolution to occur.

 

arbitrarily defined year 0:

Tribe A, a large group of people with no significant existing mana transformation, migrates due to some natural disaster to a new home Place Z, which brings them into near-constant/daily (if not necessarily close) transformation proximity of a source of Life Mana.

 

year 5000:

Still in place Z, Tribe A has some degree of transformation as a result of this proximity. Would it be uniform between tribe members?

There are two factors at play here. Mana transformation would happen "immediately" on this time scale. Less than one year. So you could say by year 5000, that it has happened uniformly, because any variation in transformation time would be insignificant.

Thus, the only real "force" here is evolution. All of your questions can be answered in terms of basic evolution as it happens on earth; the only difference is the starting point is a human with different traits from a normal human. This means that nature would be selecting for traits that are favorable relative to a mana-transformed human (and their environment).

 

Would it be uniform within a tribe member over the course of their lifetime?

At this time scale, all factors would be genetic, so yes.

 

Would a new untransformed adult arrival from a far-off tribe C become transformed to the extent tribe A's first adults were shortly after year 0, or more to the extent tribe A are currently?

Year 0. The only transformative effects on them would be from the mana; the thousands of years of genetic variation wouldn't suddenly appear.

 

Relatedly, has the mana source changed/intensified/evolved in line with the changes it's wrought in the humans?

I don't know what this means. It's not a living being, it's a geological feature. It would change in the same way a lake would.

 

A portion of Tribe A moves away together, for whatever reason, and settles in place Y with no significant mana proximity, becoming tribe B.

 

year 10,000:

Tribe B still in Place Y, Tribe A still in place Z. Is degree of transformation consistent within tribes between individuals?

This is no different than the question above; it'd be about as uniform as random genetic variation can get.

 

Are tribe A more transformed than they were? Has transformation progressed, regressed or remained constant within tribe B, and has it done so equally between individuals?

With respect to the influence of mana, it'd be the same.

 

Overall, are these the timescales we're thinking?

See above.

 

what would be the result of, at any time-point, a member of either tribe A or B having a child with a member of a community exposed to dark mana for thousands of years?

As I said, past the actual "mana-transformation" process, which is quick, everything else is functionally the same from an evolutionary perspective. So, assuming the two beings are compatible, two things would happen: The mana-transformed parts would take after the mother, as I mentioned in a previous post (if mana has its affects by entering cells, then the mother would have none of the father's mana type, so only the mother's would be passed down). Beyond that, non-mana-transformed traits (including traits that evolved around the existence of mana transformation) would be blended the same way they are now. This would possibly end poorly or just end up with a bunch of unused traits (because the relevant genes simply never get triggered without a given mana transformation).

 

Does becoming transformed confer upon an individual the ability to reduce their own transformation intentionally as part of the obtained magic, and is that reduction persistent to the next generation?

Innately, no.

 

Would a member of tribe B moving to tribe A become transformed fast/to a greater extent than a member of tribe C doing the same? At any point would a tribe A or B member moving to tribe C's home have the potential to cause any degree of transformation of tribe C's adults?

Exposure to people doesn't do anything, so no?

[TJ09]

The time scale is pretty off, but I'll continue with the rest of the questions anyways. Check out things about "geological time scales" for more of what I'm getting at. E.g. this page makes the claim that "modern humans" have been around (relatively) unchanged for at least 11,000 years. For any significant changes to occur, you'd be need very very very long periods of time, and probably complete isolation from other humans to prevent the mixing I talked about.

 

It's pretty safe to say human society in Valkemare has existed for less than the amount of time required for significant evolution to occur.

 

There are two factors at play here. Mana transformation would happen "immediately" on this time scale. Less than one year. So you could say by year 5000, that it has happened uniformly, because any variation in transformation time would be insignificant.

Thus, the only real "force" here is evolution. All of your questions can be answered in terms of basic evolution as it happens on earth; the only difference is the starting point is a human with different traits from a normal human. This means that nature would be selecting for traits that are favorable relative to a mana-transformed human (and their environment).

 

At this time scale, all factors would be genetic, so yes.

 

 

Year 0. The only transformative effects on them would be from the mana; the thousands of years of genetic variation wouldn't suddenly appear.

 

 

I don't know what this means. It's not a living being, it's a geological feature. It would change in the same way a lake would.

 

This is no different than the question above; it'd be about as uniform as random genetic variation can get.

 

With respect to the influence of mana, it'd be the same.

 

See above.

 

 

As I said, past the actual "mana-transformation" process, which is quick, everything else is functionally the same from an evolutionary perspective. So, assuming the two beings are compatible, two things would happen: The mana-transformed parts would take after the mother, as I mentioned in a previous post (if mana has its affects by entering cells, then the mother would have none of the father's mana type, so only the mother's would be passed down). Beyond that, non-mana-transformed traits (including traits that evolved around the existence of mana transformation) would be blended the same way they are now. This would possibly end poorly or just end up with a bunch of unused traits (because the relevant genes simply never get triggered without a given mana transformation).

 

Innately, no.

 

Exposure to people doesn't do anything, so no?

One other thing, though. If the effects of transformation are triggered by mana entering cells and altering behavior, then without constant long-term exposure, it'd be diluted over generations, since there'd be no new mana introduced. Thus the effects would slightly lessen over time unless exposed to more mana.

 

Unless one of the effects of mana is that it manages to get the body to produce more mana. That's totally possible (ie within the realm of things that could happen, not that it's likely).

[Chalkboard]

Okay, I love genetics and intend to major in them, so all this talk of mana mutation inspired me to check if something like that is even remotely possible. I’m hardly an expert at this stuff so remember to take everything I’m about to say with a grain of salt.

 

[snipped for length]

YEAH, GENETICS. Seconding that I'm hardly an expert, I'd like to add a couple of thoughts in this vein.

 

One thing is that, while radiation (and theoretical magic particles) could cause cancer and thereafter a lot of cell multiplication, it's entirely impossible for that radiation-altered group of cells (or groups, if your entire body was exposed) to 'take over' your body and replace normal cells. I'm sure you're aware, but just for clarity. Cells of a tumor appear very different to normal cells, partly as a result of the DNA alteration and partly because of their very rapid division (ie. cells not being properly differentiated, having odd shapes, etc) and they often have very short lives as they don't function normally. Sure, a benign tumor is very different to a malignant tumor and more likely to be harmless, but unless 'magic particles' targeted specific regions of the genome, it's way more likely that a mutation caused by mana would just cause any old random mutation. If we assume 'radiation' from mana damages DNA to that extent, I think the humanans would be experiencing a disease state rather than just cool elemental abilities. They also couldn't pass it on to their children -- somatic mutations are not heritable.

 

Another thing -- while I don't think (for the reasons above) that, if mana caused mutations in (only some of/most of) the body cells, it could be passed onto children -- perhaps mana/'magic particles' could be passed between cells, like messenger molecules and nutrients are? Through blood, through gap junctions, and so on, I mean. That would mean that they're evenly distributed through all cells, maybe even germ-line cells, and that'd allow magic abilities to be passed on to children?

 

This is really just nerding out as this point... imagine humanan mosaicism/chimeras. Imagine. And what happens if you got a blood transfusion (yes, I know, medieval settings) from someone with a different alignment?

 

As TJ said, if it's just the presence of mana in cells and not a DNA mutation -- unless mana replicates within human cells like mitochondria do (or, like a virus, uses the machinery of the cell to produce more of itself?) -- that'd lead to dilution over generations. I'm very for the mitochondrial theory of inheritance, here. It would be awesome if everyone carried a mix of mana (say, your mother mostly had fire mana), and the proportion you inherit mostly determines what alignment you'll have, so someone with a fire alignment could possibly-but-very-rarely produce a water-aligned child if they got more water mana than fire mana by chance. Maybe magical ability can be a multifactorial trait -- partly passed from your mother's original cells (either as a mutation or as actual mana/particles), partly from your own exposure during early life?

[TJ09]

Okay, I love genetics and intend to major in them, so all this talk of mana mutation inspired me to check if something like that is even remotely possible. I’m hardly an expert at this stuff so remember to take everything I’m about to say with a grain of salt.

 

The way I understand it there are 3 main types of radiation: UVA, UVB and ionizing. The one we’re looking for is ionizing (which is basically the kind of radiation that comes from substances rather than the sun). According to radical.org, “The name [ionizing radiation] is appropriate because the high speed electrons (beta rays) passing through living tissue actually rip negatively charged electrons from atoms, leaving positively charged ions. Such electrons in turn ionize other atoms until finally all the initial energy of the high speed electron is dissipated… Many chemical bonds between atoms are shattered in addition to the ionization produced.”

 

I know that sounds like a bunch of science-y gibberish, so let’s use an analogy. The radiation is like shrapnel tearing apart the “architecture,” or highly organized chemical substances, within cells. This organization is very, VERY important and ruining it like that can injure or even kill a cell. If the cell merely sustains injury, there’s a chance it will still be able to divide, and the daughter cells it creates could inherit that injury. This is why, over a long period of time, one injured cell could singlehandedly cause a deformity like cancer.

 

So how in GoN’s name does this relate to DC? Well, from what TJ has said so far it doesn’t sound like mana radiation leads to cancer or poor health, so we can assume that it’s different from ionizing radiation. It also doesn’t fit with UVA or UVB radiation, though I’ll spare you the lengthy explanations on those. So we’ve hit a dead end here; whatever mana does to humanity is definitely not like earthly radiation.

 

Let’s try diverging a bit from science. After all, mana radiation is clearly in a category of its own and is, by definition, magical. Since it’s most similar to ionizing radiation, we’ll use that as a base. To achieve the magical effects we want without causing any serious damage, we’ll need to make up something other than electrons (or “shrapnel”) for mana to shoot through its victims. For the sake of this explanation we’ll call those things magic particles. I really have no idea how Valkemarian magic works or if it has anything to do with particles, but if TJ likes this explanation then naturally he can change them to whatever he wants.

 

So, once a human has come into contact with mana it’s safe to assume that they’ve also encountered some of those magic particles. The particles, like electrons in ionizing radiation, would pass through their tissue. However, instead of ripping through the cells like shrapnel, the magic particles would either safely inject themselves into them or casually be absorbed by them. Either way, they’d wind up in their cytoplasm. This is where my shallow understanding of science runs out, so what happens from here is probably going to be completely illogical. Then again this IS magic we’re talking about, so it was bound to get crazy somewhere.

 

From the cytoplasm the magic particles seek out the cell’s DNA. Once they find it they begin distorting it. What exactly they do depends on what the resulting mana mutant is supposed to be like (so basically it’s up to TJ). The now-corrupted cells would divide and spread through the host like cancer until their genetic code has been completely altered. Of course these alterations would probably have to be very slight in the first generation and grow as more children are born and raised near mana. Additionally, the extent of the genetic alterations could depend on how close to it the humans are (i.e. civilizations that rarely but consistently make contact with life mana would develop green-tinted skin while those that are constantly near it would start to grow leaves or something). This would leave some space for variation and natural selection, though as with everything I’ve stated so far it’s entirely up to TJ.

 

As for the dilemma of non-altered humans, there could be something like “mana antibodies” in each human’s cells that are specially designed to eliminate magic particles. I imagine they’d probably be able to prevent any extreme mutation as long as you didn’t spend a ton of time near mana. Also, if its radioactive properties are well-known amongst civilized humans then they’d probably know to avoid it or at least take preventative measures when handling it. Isolated tribes, however, wouldn’t understand these things and could wind up exposing themselves to mana for generations, leading to the humanans/mantants/whatever they're called.

 

As for the ability to reverse the effect of mana alterations (which TJ mentioned in an earlier post), that would also probably have to rely on magic. I mean, if magic particles can selectively alter a human’s DNA (which would take a HUGE amount of caution and skill), then why wouldn’t they be able to unalter it? Obviously there’d have to be some sort of spell or something used to swap the effects and it sounds like it would be excruciatingly painful if you were super mutated, but it seems like it should be doable.

 

…Wow, this turned out WAY longer than I anticipated. I’d make a tl;dr thing but I’m tired and don’t even know where to begin. Anyway, this is just my take on things, and remember to take all of my “science” with a grain of salt. XP

I haven't been viewing it as radiation-based. More like getting it inside your body somehow (physical contact through skin, consuming it, breathing in vaporous mana).

 

That vapor part there would probably act in place of what you were assuming would be some type of radiation. It can get in the air, though I don't think it spreads very far from the source before it simply becomes to diluted.

[Nerei]

Is it possible for the same amount of mana over the same amount of time to manifest its effects on a group people in different ways? Like, some may be transformed in various psychological ways, while others might be altered physically?

Edited June 11, 2015 by Niyaka

[KingSpinosaurus]

I'm not sure if anybody else asked this before as I still have to read some pages.

 

Where do holiday dragons go when their season is over?

[TJ09]

Is it possible for the same amount of mana over the same amount of time to manifest its effects on a group people in different ways? Like, some may be transformed in various psychological ways, while others might be altered physically?

I've viewed it as having relatively consistent effects on human physiology (or, if there's variance, it's variance within a few sets).

 

Relatively consistent means it won't affect everyone completely uniformly, but the main resulting attributes should be the same.

[TJ09]

I'm not sure if anybody else asked this before as I still have to read some pages.

 

Where do holiday dragons go when their season is over?

Game Logic℠.

 

They're probably very rarely seen anyways; rare enough to be just folklore to most people.

[herobrine745]

Is Valkmare in a binary star system? Those are according to the internet, but they were good sources the most common. If it is, then there would be 2 suns. How much might that affect life, such as one sun showing at certain times, short nights, etc.

[Dirtytabs]

Since several dragon descriptions mention "the sun", there's probably only one.

 

Who/what is Valentine? (What is the '09 Valentine dragon named after?)

[TJ09]

Is Valkmare in a binary star system? Those are according to the internet, but they were good sources the most common. If it is, then there would be 2 suns. How much might that affect life, such as one sun showing at certain times, short nights, etc.

I wasn't planning on it, since it changes too much about habitability (to the point where there's a wikipedia article on the matter).

[TJ09]

Where do Paper and Cheese eggs come from? How do they get into the cave?

Enchanted by humans (rarely). And they don't get into the cave. Neither are something that would/could actually exist in nature, nor would one released into nature actually survive very long without a sustained infusion of mana.

 

Because game logic.

[TJ09]

Since several dragon descriptions mention "the sun", there's probably only one.

 

Who/what is Valentine? (What is the '09 Valentine dragon named after?)

I'd view it as another one of them abstract names that seemingly has no meaning (but sounds cool)--like Teimarr.

[Nerei]

Is "fogging" an actual way to protect dragon eggs from sickness? Do views on DC have any sort of correlation to something that Valkemare dragon eggs would experience?

[TJ09]

Is "fogging" an actual way to protect dragon eggs from sickness? Do views on DC have any sort of correlation to something that Valkemare dragon eggs would experience?

I don't think so, no; it's probably several layers abstracted away from reality: Views do something (represent people warming the egg? Iunno, certainly not something that actually happens), creating fog simply prevents people from being able to find an egg.