BSA Nurture for hatchies

[borntobefree]

I'm actually an anthropologist guys, trust me, nurture has way more influence in success of a species over all than those not nurtured by at east one adult. For instance take the experiments performed on baby monkeys in the 60's and seventies, where the mother was replaced with a wire brush, and others with a plush toy monkey. The one simple act of cuddling allowed those infants to grow-up healthier and significantly increased their offspring's survival, as well as there relationships with the rest of the troop, the infants with the wire brush while making it to adult hood, were stymied, from poor health, as well as they lacked the ability to to successfully raise their offspring. Greater health does increase maturation rates, albeit, instead of a female gaining reproductive age at 14 she may at 13. Also take how some species will have 200 eggs but the parent does not stick around to nurture the hatchlings, and maybe 2 will survive to reach adulthood. where others like the croc, will have 100 eggs all hatch and the mom sticks around for the first year, first month after hatching she'll often hold them in her jaws for protection from not only other predators but from severe weather as well, she'll have a 70% success rate, per breeding season.

 

I'm suggesting a BSA or dragon, doesn't really matter which, which practices alloparenting.

 

Also I am suggesting to make it hard because this is a game and puts a level of difficulty into it, making it more challenging, while still providing benefits sufficient to the difficulty, and yes I am still suggesting multiple day options, with the difficulty increasing per day. Makes no sense to do it if its not hard that way those who really don't care about doing it wouldn't put in the effort for it, but those of us who want to can, after all that's my game play.

 

[borntobefree]

33 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Yeah, that's perfectly true. You can die from LACK of nurture is all.

its not how the die from the lack, but how much more successful nurturing can make the offspring.

[Fuzzbucket]

It does not make them grow up any faster though - and that is what your suggestion is aimed at - not having to wait for your stuff to grow up. Our dragons, once grown, behave as they like - in other words, we have no control over them and they don't vary in health, power and "success as a species".

 

And I think everyone who has posted in this thread agrees that being able to lower time by more than 24 hours in total (as in either incubate or nurture - not both on one creature) - is a far as this suggestion should go. So if you have already incubated an egg, you don't get to nurture the hatchling.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[olympe]

10 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

And I think everyone who has posted in this thread agrees that being able to lower time by more than 24 hours in total (as in either incubate or nurture - not both on one creature) - is a far as this suggestion should go. So if you have already incubated an egg, you don't get to nurture the hatchling.

Let's rephrase that a little. I agree that no dragon should grow up more than 24 hours early, period. However, I don't think that Incubate and Nurture need to be mutually exclusive.

For example, let's assume you incubate an egg so it hatches 6 hours early. (Because you incubated a little late and wanted to hatch it before going to bed, whatever.) Then you should still be able to take off the remaining 18 hours with Nurture to get the whole 24 hour benefit. 

 

Well, at least that's my opinion on this.  

[Fuzzbucket]

A total of 24 hours ? Yeah - that works. But the OP implied that we should be able to almost insta-adult hatchies - using nurture repeatedly. That's not OK by me.

[olympe]

Agreed. I'd also be kind of okay with being able to Incubate and Nurture the same dragon for a full effect of 48 hours, but I'm not sure how well that might get received.  Probably not at all.

[borntobefree]

Gah I have a horrible keyboard, had to edit that whole damn thing.

 

Basically I want to be able to drop a day on both incubation and be able to nurture so drop a day on each side, it could be very interesting to be able to drop even more days, it would be very costly to do, not easy and no way insta adult status.

Edited December 11, 2018 by borntobefree

[Fuzzbucket]

27 minutes ago, olympe said:

Agreed. I'd also be kind of okay with being able to Incubate and Nurture the same dragon for a full effect of 48 hours, but I'm not sure how well that might get received.  Probably not at all.

 

Not by me  But to each their own. I do think there seems to be an increasing demand in this game for instant gratification. I think it is sad and not to be encouraged. I hope TJ agrees  

 

  7 minutes ago, borntobefree said:

so lets rephrase that again then, not everyone agrees that it should be only one, either nurture or incubate, some seem to like one or the other, others don't give a fig either way, and some like the idea of being about to do both and get the full 48 hour out of it, you seem unable to understand that I want the full 48, but also tossing the idea out of the high cost multi day drop, maybe get its it down to lets say from Caveborn, from 3 day to one day, to a hatchie, and then a day from hatchie to adult, so its no way insta adult. but i also think if that's a way that it can not be performed on anything less than total 48 hours from laid.

 

I understand what you want. I just disagree. There is nothing wrong with patience. To take a leaf from your own book as an anthropologist, you can't shorten a pregnancy by eating more vitamins, now can you ? Or make a child grow up faster with doubling up its rations. However healthy a baby/child is, it won't grow up any faster for being healthier.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Fuzzbucket

[olympe]

Since when do our dragons get pregnant? 

Also, what is this thread - let's multi-post until a mod comes in? 

[Fuzzbucket]

1 minute ago, olympe said:

Since when do our dragons get pregnant? 

Also, what is this thread - let's multi-post until a mod comes in? 

 

The idea that nurturing any creature (or egg) can make it grow up faster is my issue. It was an analogy. And as an anthropologist, the OP knows that it doesn't work like that. Even using infrared on chicken eggs only means that they DO hatch without mummy sitting on them, not that they hatch faster. (I had to live through egg hatchings as a child; my father farmed chickens as a side line !)

 

And I didn't mean to double post; I hit the wrong button, OK ?

[borntobefree]

Actually that's not true, many species reach adult hood dependent on size, not years, nurturing and sustenance do get them to adult stages sooner, take snakes for example. You touch some truth then go off into left field with it. I appreciate your opinion Fuzz-bucket but could you let some others comment on this thread you are drowning them out with your opinions. please still comment just give others a chance as well, your disapproval is very well evident and others don't want to rock the boat, because you think your opinion is the norm for the whole site or at least that's how its coming off, at least a bit.

 

 

[DragonLady86]

1 hour ago, borntobefree said:

I'm actually an anthropologist guys, trust me, nurture has way more influence in success of a species over all than those not nurtured by at east one adult. For instance take the experiments performed on baby monkeys in the 60's and seventies, where the mother was replaced with a wire brush, and others with a plush toy monkey. The one simple act of cuddling allowed those infants to grow-up healthier and significantly increased their offspring's survival, as well as there relationships with the rest of the troop, the infants with the wire brush while making it to adult hood, were stymied, from poor health, as well as they lacked the ability to to successfully raise their offspring. Greater health does increase maturation rates, albeit, instead of a female gaining reproductive age at 14 she may at 13. Also take how some species will have 200 eggs but the parent does not stick around to nurture the hatchlings, and maybe 2 will survive to reach adulthood. where others like the croc, will have 100 eggs all hatch and the mom sticks around for the first year, first month after hatching she'll often hold them in her jaws for protection from not only other predators but from severe weather as well, she'll have a 70% success rate, per breeding season.

 

I'm suggesting a BSA or dragon, doesn't really matter which, which practices alloparenting.

 

Also I am suggesting to make it hard because this is a game and puts a level of difficulty into it, making it more challenging, while still providing benefits sufficient to the difficulty, and yes I am still suggesting multiple day options, with the difficulty increasing per day. Makes no sense to do it if its not hard that way those who really don't care about doing it wouldn't put in the effort for it, but those of us who want to can, after all that's my game play.

 

As a Zoologist, that is true for SOME species, generally those with some kind of social nature.  But there are plenty of animals that grow up completely independent of adult care.  Monkeys are social, thus need that care.  It should be noted that Dragcave is NOT on Earth and our rules do not necessarily apply.

 

On to the actual suggestion:

 

1.suggesting the BSA be usable multiple times is, frankly, never going to happen.  We can't incubate more than once because that makes it "too easy" so there is no reason to think that same rule wouldn't apply to Nurture.  The only bsa you can use more than once on the same creature is precog, which does not actually change anything about the egg.  (If we were going to argue that some should be multiple use, Ward should first on that list, not this)

 

2. BSA's are given to a dragon SPECIES not just purebred versions.  BSA is literally short for BREED Specific Action which means all members of that BREED can do it, there is zero reason to make an exception.  (Aria's are also super-common, I have a small army of them mostly CB already due to picking them up anytime I see them)  The reason BSA's are never given to rare dragons is to make it EASIER for people to collect them.  Aeons being the least common exception, and again Precog does not directly effect the dragon, it just makes life easier.  So your reasons are completely against the entire idea of BSAs in the first place.

 

3. BSA suggestions work best when you first have a dragon then fit the BSA to it, not the other way around.  Other people have suggested a few, but you, as the OP have ignored that step.

 

 

[Sazandora]

Eh, being able to both incubate and nurture a dragon to shave a total of 48 hours off of its timer seems a bit too overpowered. I'm fine with making Nurture unusable if Incubate had been used on the same dragon.

[borntobefree]

Actually temperature has a lot to do with how fast eggs hatch. For instance our corn-snakes eggs hatch up to 10 days sooner with a higher temp, our button quail also do that. You are having an issue with something, and have the wrong understanding completely of the effects of nurturing, so if your problem is your understanding of how nurturing affects the speed of increasing the speed of offspring in reaching adulthood you are coming at it with a very wrong assumption.

And yes I am an Anthropologist, and your arguments are so wrong. I'm not arguing with your wrong information any more.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

Thanks Dragonlady - I 100% agree with you - and I'm out.

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

13 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

I understand what you want. I just disagree. There is nothing wrong with patience. To take a leaf from your own book as an anthropologist, you can't shorten a pregnancy by eating more vitamins, now can you ? Or make a child grow up faster with doubling up its rations. However healthy a baby/child is, it won't grow up any faster for being healthier.

 

I agree, and this is why I support "teaching" as an option for this BSA. By getting smart and learning about the world, I imagine the hatchies could learn to grow and fend for themselves quicker. While heating an egg to allow it to hatch quicker makes a lot of sense, there isn't really any logical way of forcing something to grow up, which can be tricky in this BSA

 

I also completely agree that one creature shouldn't be allowed to be incubated AND nurtured. There was a suggestion about if you take 6 hours off an egg via incubation, you should be allowed to take 18 hours off the hatchie to get 24 hours taken off max, but I disagree with that. It seems a bit too complicated, and I just don't think creatures should be allowed two maturing BSAs to happen.

[borntobefree]

TY dragonlady, and my daughters studying to be a wildlife bio, shes taking a year off before she finishes her degree. The monkey was just one example, and I no way implied it was every single species. Also you would be well aware that some non social or species that don't nurture when taken and nurtured does decrease the infant mortality, and also can accelerate growth and maturation, again, not every species, but it is not uncommon like some are trying to say.

Not even sure why a real world biological example is needed to make this particular BSA request necessary

 

1.not sure why one bsa dragon would have to be done first or instead of, why can't we do both? They both seem like good ideas to me, I don't think there should be multiple incubates either, but nurturing could be cool, but just one incubate would be cool as well.

 

2. Because some seem to think its too easy or overpowered or such thats why I said make them pure bloods only that are able to use the bsa, it takes the whole.."its too easy" out of the equation, for those who think its a patience thing, it will take a long time to get everything you need to be able to use the bsa. The whole pureblood, cb only helps to limit how much people can do it.

 

3. Well not really sure which would be better, giving an already established dragon the ability or having to make a new dragon to do it, I actually like that one persons suggestion of using the Aries to do it.

 

Not really sure why some are so angry with this thread, or maybe annoyed works better. chatting about these and discussing them should be enjoyable, for those of us here trying to enjoy this game.

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

Firstly I'll say - we aren't angry. People are passionate about this website, and know what they do and do not want. Please don't take disagreements as attacks - literally nobody has stated they are angry: people just agree and disagree on what they want in the game. And that's what this discussion board is here for.

 

3 minutes ago, borntobefree said:

1.not sure why one bsa dragon would have to be done first or instead of, why can't we do both? They both seem like good ideas to me, I don't think there should be multiple incubates either, but nurturing could be cool, but just one incubate would be cool as well.

 

2. Because some seem to think its too easy or overpowered or such thats why I said make them pure bloods only that are able to use the bsa, it takes the whole.."its too easy" out of the equation, for those who think its a patience thing, it will take a long time to get everything you need to be able to use the bsa. The whole pureblood, cb only helps to limit how much people can do it.

 

3. Well not really sure which would be better, giving an already established dragon the ability or having to make a new dragon to do it, I actually like that one persons suggestion of using the Aries to do it.

 

1. The name is "breed-specific action", as in,  action specific to one breed only. I don't think it's likely that a multiple-breed action is going to happen anytime soon, and tbh, wouldn't really like it. It's nice that certain breeds have a mechanic that only they can pull off, imo.

 

2. The easy solution to being "overpowered" is a fail rate. Fail rates happen with many BSAs, are standard, and make sense. Limiting BSAs with non-standard restrictions kinda complicates things, when a simple and accepted solution is just a fail rate.

 

3. As I said before in this thread, if you want to make a dragon with this ability, you are more than welcome to do so - it just needs to be in the Dragon Requests section, not here.

[olympe]

16 minutes ago, borntobefree said:

2. Because some seem to think its too easy or overpowered or such thats why I said make them pure bloods only that are able to use the bsa, it takes the whole.."its too easy" out of the equation, for those who think its a patience thing, it will take a long time to get everything you need to be able to use the bsa. The whole pureblood, cb only helps to limit how much people can do it.

 

[*snip*]

 

Not really sure why some are so angry with this thread, or maybe annoyed works better. chatting about these and discussing them should be enjoyable, for those of us here trying to enjoy this game.

Well, even if you have to get PBs, that's not exactly hard to do. Not at all. And, over time, very much achievable. So, this idea won't help with keeping the high-powered, if not over-powered Nurture BSA in check. Rarity won't do much to keep things in check, as there are some very successful hunters out there who'll get their fill in no time, while it will take others longer to get there. Since this is a rather powerful BSA, I don't like making the dragon having it rare. Not one bit.

 

A much better check, IMHO, is making Nurture and Incubate either mutually exclusive or make it so that no hatchling can grow up less than 5 full days after its egg was made. Because, ultimately, that's the only thing that will permanently keep things in check, even for people with 12k and more dragons.

 

Regarding your remark of people being angry: While many of us may come across like that, it's far from the truth. But it's been like this for a long time: Unless you've really thought out your suggestion in all important details (which BSA, which breed, how does it works, checks and balances...), you will get questioned, and people will argue over this and that. Another thing to keep in mind is to keep things simple - or as simple as possible. TJ doesn't put much store in our collective intelligence, so "keep it simple" is mandatory. (A while back, he stated quite clearly that a rule of +2 holidays / year for a limited breed was too complicated for us...) 

 

Not to mention that there's always that element of realism that seems to be required.

 

[borntobefree]

I just want to enjoy myself here, and will just ignore those who seem bit to vociferous in their "disagreements", so I'll try to not get to upset when my posts aren't understood as well.

 

I actually tried to keep it simple, but then started coming up with what to me seem like really interesting things to do, I like the increased fail rate, and for most of us we don't have those tricks to get things quickly like you said, and those people no doubt would catch those things quick, but even knowing we don't do that, except for holiday dragons seems that it should still be possible.

 

And Shakes... I might take you up on the offer for making a dragon, can't do anything like that til January cause I'll be in the hospital for a while. Are we allowed to submit actual drawings not digital art, that's one skill I do not have, digital art It's why I eventually dropped it as one of my majors, lol. which was ok cause it left me with 4 majors, lol.

[Imzadi]

1 hour ago, borntobefree said:

I just want to enjoy myself here, and will just ignore those who seem bit to vociferous in their "disagreements", so I'll try to not get to upset when my posts aren't understood as well.

 

I actually tried to keep it simple, but then started coming up with what to me seem like really interesting things to do, I like the increased fail rate, and for most of us we don't have those tricks to get things quickly like you said, and those people no doubt would catch those things quick, but even knowing we don't do that, except for holiday dragons seems that it should still be possible.

 

And Shakes... I might take you up on the offer for making a dragon, can't do anything like that til January cause I'll be in the hospital for a while. Are we allowed to submit actual drawings not digital art, that's one skill I do not have, digital art It's why I eventually dropped it as one of my majors, lol. which was ok cause it left me with 4 majors, lol.

None of us would be here if we didn't enjoy it.  Also DC can be very dramatic when it comes to opinions.  Some are more stringent in their responses, but that's just the way it is.

Now, as far as BSA suggestions go, there is one thing to keep in mind.  It has never, ever, ever worked to suggest a BSA and hope some dragon is approved for it.  You have to pick a dragon, look at its abilities and suggest the BSA for that dragon.  If you don't you have zero chance of it being accepted, unless TJ does a very big about-face.

[borntobefree]

See I am not familiar with all the dragons, I wouldn't be able to pick the best one suited to it, only one person so far has offered any opinion on which dragon should do it, someone else suggested a bronze dragon i think it was, and that they had actually tried to get a similar BSA. I'm liking the aria because f its connection to the pink dragons, and also because i haven't raised any bronze yet and have nothing in the encyclopedia yet for them.

[Aalbiel]

At first I liked the Aria suggestion purely based on the fact that I like old breeds getting BSAs, but when you really look at it it doesn't make any sense: there is nothing in the breed description (or encyclo info as there is none) that suggests any sort of gregarious or nurturing behaviour.... Some breeds are even more out of the question as they are described specifically as aggressive, solitary, or even in the case of the Harvest as "letting hatchlings fend for themselves".

 

My suggestion would be the Candelabra dragon, which is a warm, nurturing dragon, and the adults "bond quite closely to their family, guarding them at all costs", while the hatchlings "bond quite quickly to whoever is raising them". I'm sure other breeds would work also (like Monarchs, also described as somewhat familial), but I like the idea of Candelabras. Of course to add a BSA to any existing breed you'd need the input of the artist/concept creator.

 

Finally I like this BSA overall, taking a day off hatchie growth would be wonderful and makes a lot of sense lore-wise. I've read above some arguments for this which I won't repeat but just support: of course nurturing and teaching a growing child/baby animal/whatever helps them develop. That being said, I am against taking any more than 1 day off. Why? First of all this seems unnecessary and exaggerated: if you were to take 2 days off that's 2/3 of minimum growing time which is just huge. Secondly, this is pushing the lore too far: unless you want to invoke "because magic" which is usually not seen as a good enough reason, growing up does have a large biological component of - you know - actually doing the growing - which cannot just be more than halved like that.

[Fuzzbucket]

Passing through to point out that all the encyclopaedia information is right there in the wiki, even if you haven't unlocked it.

[Soulsborne]

13 hours ago, DragonLady86 said:

1.suggesting the BSA be usable multiple times is, frankly, never going to happen.  We can't incubate more than once because that makes it "too easy" so there is no reason to think that same rule wouldn't apply to Nurture.  The only bsa you can use more than once on the same creature is precog, which does not actually change anything about the egg.  (If we were going to argue that some should be multiple use, Ward should first on that list, not this)

 

2. BSA's are given to a dragon SPECIES not just purebred versions.  BSA is literally short for BREED Specific Action which means all members of that BREED can do it, there is zero reason to make an exception.  (Aria's are also super-common, I have a small army of them mostly CB already due to picking them up anytime I see them)  The reason BSA's are never given to rare dragons is to make it EASIER for people to collect them.  Aeons being the least common exception, and again Precog does not directly effect the dragon, it just makes life easier. 

 

Those are the points that bugged me the most and thankfully, DragonLady86 summed up quite nicely what's wrong with it for me personally.

 

If a breed has a BSA then every single dragon of this breed - messy, cb, purebred, etc. - should have it. Otherwise you are basically forcing people to collect purebred ones even if they don't fit into how sb is playing the game (only collecting cbs, messies, etc.). And let's be honest, the only people that would have a harder time to get a purebred dragon would be those who just started... (if we are not calculating any gifts into this) you need 1 cb male and 1 cb female of that breed and then hope they don't refuse (very new players most likely don't have a purple yet) to breed your pure BSA dragon.

 

And being able to use both Incubate and Nurture on the same dragon would be really "overpowered" as some have already mentioned. (not that I don't like dragons growing faster but it just doesn't fit DC to speed things up too much)