ANSWERED:Egg/Hatchling on top -sorting gets unselected after a Custom Sort

[Platykwak]

Whenever I do a Custom Sort (I use Grid sort) and save the changes, the checkmark at "Place Eggs and Unfrozen Hatchlings on top" gets unselected. So whenever I save my Custom Sorting, I also have to go back to Sort Settings, click that checkmark back in place, and then save sort options again. I wonder what causes this.

 

Same thing happens to the Reverse Sort checkmark, at least when I tried it. I clicked it again and saved, to turn my sorting back around the normal way again. I kinda get this one, maybe? But the Egg/Hatchie sorting I'd like to stay as permanently checkmarked if I choose to.

[FuecocoBoi09]

SUPPORT^^^^^^ I want to put stuff like my CB Prize and Leetle Tree up top, then above that my eggs/hatchies, and below that my other dragons, all auto sorted.

[Fuzzbucket]

The "place eggs etc on top" is a very different thing from putting specific things at the top. For that I  think you'd have to just put them there when doing a grid sort - as I do with my timekeeper nocturne. You are looking at a custom sort here, which isn't something that can happen automatically - but using grid sort gets me pretty much what you are asking for - I have what I want at the top, and the growing stuff above it. When I go for change sort order, what I had set up with new stuff at the top is there; everything stays where it is supposed to, except the newest stuff, which I just have to move to where it should be, and then it stays there. 

[KageSora]

Unfortunately this has basically been the case forever.  Be nice if the checked boxes could remain checked after modifying a custom sort, though.

[Platykwak]

Well, then I would obviously appreciate if we got an explanation why this could not be fixed, if that really is the case.

[KageSora]

It might be intentional for some reason, in which case there's nothing to "fix" because it's behaving as intended.

 

But I'd also definitely be curious as to the reason behind its behavior--like if there's some technical reason where custom sorting overrides all other options or if this was a deliberate choice in function.

[Moriaty]

I think it's because grid sort is designed so that you can drag anything around, including your eggs and hatchlings? I don't think making the place egg and hatchling on top stay checked makes sense since it is very possible for someone to originally have that box checked, then custom sort and intentionally drag a hatchling to somewhere else - in that case if the originally checked place egg & hatchling on top box stays checked that hatchling is obviously not going anywhere and I think forcing that user to manually uncheck the box and sort again makes even less sense from a user perspective. Unless you're suggesting an auto-detection in custom sort where the system knows if you've moved a hatchling/egg and unchecks the box only based on the detection...well I feel like that's gonna be difficult to implement

[KageSora]

1 hour ago, Moriaty said:

I think it's because grid sort is designed so that you can drag anything around, including your eggs and hatchlings? I don't think making the place egg and hatchling on top stay checked makes sense since it is very possible for someone to originally have that box checked, then custom sort and intentionally drag a hatchling to somewhere else - in that case if the originally checked place egg & hatchling on top box stays checked that hatchling is obviously not going anywhere and I think forcing that user to manually uncheck the box and sort again makes even less sense from a user perspective. Unless you're suggesting an auto-detection in custom sort where the system knows if you've moved a hatchling/egg and unchecks the box only based on the detection...well I feel like that's gonna be difficult to implement

It also applies to the manual custom sort with using numbers to sort dragons, and I assume table custom sort--that is, it's likely a factor for any type of custom sort.

 

And while I'd be curious for an official answer, this is more or less what I sort of assumed as the reason all these years--that it makes more sense for custom sort to override a check to allow users to manually shift something around as desired and that some sort of auto-detection or toggle that's like "yes have custom sort override other checked options/no do not let custom sort override other checked options" would be complex to add.

[Moriaty]

 

40 minutes ago, KageSora said:

It also applies to the manual custom sort with using numbers to sort dragons, and I assume table custom sort--that is, it's likely a factor for any type of custom sort.

 

And while I'd be curious for an official answer, this is more or less what I sort of assumed as the reason all these years--that it makes more sense for custom sort to override a check to allow users to manually shift something around as desired and that some sort of auto-detection or toggle that's like "yes have custom sort override other checked options/no do not let custom sort override other checked options" would be complex to add.

 

 

Right, with number and table you can still move anything around anywhere, so it is indeed universal, I kinda forgot since I never used those xD

 

I think a toggle would actually not be complex to add (just another if check right on submit (or clicking save custom sorting) that essentially steps through 1) save custom sorted layout (like we currently have), 2) check that new toggle, if checked, set place egg/hatchling on top to checked as well), auto detection however would be difficult to implement (I can't think of a way on the top of my head lol). But I also have the distant memory of some thread saying TJ doesn't want to add more toggles to DC so not sure how possible that is. Either way, if someone want to suggest a toggle or auto-detection system I think they should bring it up in suggestion as I honestly do not think the current way it behaves is a bug.

[KageSora]

2 hours ago, Moriaty said:

I think a toggle would actually not be complex to add (just another if check right on submit (or clicking save custom sorting) that essentially steps through 1) save custom sorted layout (like we currently have), 2) check that new toggle, if checked, set place egg/hatchling on top to checked as well), auto detection however would be difficult to implement (I can't think of a way on the top of my head lol).

 

The toggle itself might not be super complex to add (only TJ would be able to say for sure), but the underlying framework might be--that is, adding in the ability for the "keep these on top" to override the manual sort might be more complex to do.

 

I agree, though, I don't think the current behavior is a bug, I think it's either an intended feature or an innate limitation of the way sorting is coded (even if it can be a bit annoying at times)

[MissK.]

I dunno, if we can currently do this in two steps, why would it not be possible to make it automatic...? If you custom sort and then go to your settings, tick the box and save it, it applies the change to your custom sort. So...just have that be triggered when the box is ticked during the custom sort. It would save everything we did, and then apply the ticked box, just like we can already do it separately. 

[Platykwak]

It also begs the question, which type of the playerbase is more numerous: ones like me who'd want the box ticked all the time if they choose so, or the ones who'd want to custom sort without unticking the box themselves? I would at least feel like it's the former? 

 

But scratch that, actually. It appears that the egg/hatchie top selection does not even overwrite the Custom Sort when ticked.

If you move eggs/hatchies to anywhere on the scroll with custom sort and save, then tick the box and save to have them on top again - THEN untick the box and save, the eggs/hatchies go back to wherever you previously put them in the custom sort. 

 

The selection box works more separately from the sorting option than speculated. So I can't see a reason why it would need to untick itself.

[MissK.]

Exactly, it's a separate function. As long as there isn't some technical coding reason why it's not possible, I feel like it would make the most sense that when you save your sort, it also reapplies the selected options. Surely if someone selected the tick box, they did it for a reason, and if they wanted it changed when sorting their scroll anew they'd deselect it manually. 

[KageSora]

Since it's been this way forever, my assumption was there is some technical reason for it, possibly relating to however it was originally coded.  Sometimes a thing that seems simple to those on the outside (especially those of us with limited or no coding knowledge, or only knowledge of different coding methods) is actually much harder to execute in practice.  Since it's overall a minor annoyance at most (that is, you don't see constant complaints about it and it takes like 2 seconds to fix manually) it's potentially not worth spending the time/effort on changing when that could be better applied to figuring out how to implement new features or introduce revamps that have been requested more frequently.  (Then again, maybe most others who are annoyed by it are like me--we just sort of assumed that was a feature, not a bug, and never tried to suggest changing it as such)

 

Or maybe it's just honestly been overlooked and can be changed in the future with relative ease.

 

In the end, I think only TJ would be able to say for sure on the matter since he's the one who does the coding and such.

[Moriaty]

10 hours ago, MissK. said:

 Surely if someone selected the tick box, they did it for a reason, and if they wanted it changed when sorting their scroll anew they'd deselect it manually. 

 

I disagree and believe always leaving it checked is just going to cause bigger confusion, like "why is my egg here instead of where I dragged it". This is more illogical than "everything is exactly where it appeared in your custom sort, but now there's an unchecked checkbox", because from what I understand the custom sort is supposed to help you visualize exactly where everything end up. 

 

10 hours ago, Platykwak said:

It also begs the question, which type of the playerbase is more numerous: ones like me who'd want the box ticked all the time if they choose so, or the ones who'd want to custom sort without unticking the box themselves? I would at least feel like it's the former? 

 

I don't think "at least feel like" is good enough

 

11 hours ago, Platykwak said:

But scratch that, actually. It appears that the egg/hatchie top selection does not even overwrite the Custom Sort when ticked.

If you move eggs/hatchies to anywhere on the scroll with custom sort and save, then tick the box and save to have them on top again - THEN untick the box and save, the eggs/hatchies go back to wherever you previously put them in the custom sort. 

 

Oh interesting, I didn't know that. I still think it's illogical to not see your eggs where you dragged them after saving, but if this is the case I see how leaving it checked/unchecks automatically both only give the other side an issue that can be fixed in 2 seconds, which is much better than I expected, I thought you'd have to do the entire re-drag your egg/hatchie where you want (which was also why I was very unfavorable of having the box always checked, I thought it'll be much more work).

 

Though I have another question - what about reverse sort? That and place egg & hatchlings on top are the same style of option located in the same area so in terms of consistency they should probably function the same way..? 

 

I still think you guys should take it to the suggestion forum - that the checkbox should stay checked after custom sorting or that there should be some kind of detection system/another toggle, whichever solution you believe is best

[Platykwak]

9 hours ago, Moriaty said:

I don't think "at least feel like" is good enough

 

Though I have another question - what about reverse sort? That and place egg & hatchlings on top are the same style of option located in the same area so in terms of consistency they should probably function the same way..? 

 

I still think you guys should take it to the suggestion forum - that the checkbox should stay checked after custom sorting or that there should be some kind of detection system/another toggle, whichever solution you believe is best

 

Regardless of my wording choices, my speculation is as good as yours. Same goes for the opinion. That's k That's just how I tend to write or speak. 

 

I checked the reverse sort too, I mentioned it in the OP. It gets unchecked, but when it's been saved beforehand, that becomes the "official order". Reversing it and saving again, returns it back to normal. So it's kinda weird. 

 

Before making this into a suggestion, I'd like to first know if it's intended behavior (and why) or not.

[Fuzzbucket]

On 12/6/2023 at 9:33 PM, KageSora said:

It might be intentional for some reason, in which case there's nothing to "fix" because it's behaving as intended.

 

But I'd also definitely be curious as to the reason behind its behavior--like if there's some technical reason where custom sorting overrides all other options or if this was a deliberate choice in function.

 

On 12/7/2023 at 5:04 AM, Moriaty said:

I think it's because grid sort is designed so that you can drag anything around, including your eggs and hatchlings? I don't think making the place egg and hatchling on top stay checked makes sense since it is very possible for someone to originally have that box checked, then custom sort and intentionally drag a hatchling to somewhere else - in that case if the originally checked place egg & hatchling on top box stays checked that hatchling is obviously not going anywhere and I think forcing that user to manually uncheck the box and sort again makes even less sense from a user perspective. Unless you're suggesting an auto-detection in custom sort where the system knows if you've moved a hatchling/egg and unchecks the box only based on the detection...well I feel like that's gonna be difficult to implement

 

This is what I think, too. For instance - when I do a grid sort, I usually want it checked. BUT - when I have dead eggs and hatchies, I want them to stay at the bottom, so I leave it unchecked. I KNOW I am not alone in that one !

 

On 12/7/2023 at 10:43 AM, Platykwak said:

It also begs the question, which type of the playerbase is more numerous: ones like me who'd want the box ticked all the time if they choose so, or the ones who'd want to custom sort without unticking the box themselves? I would at least feel like it's the former? 

 

But scratch that, actually. It appears that the egg/hatchie top selection does not even overwrite the Custom Sort when ticked.

If you move eggs/hatchies to anywhere on the scroll with custom sort and save, then tick the box and save to have them on top again - THEN untick the box and save, the eggs/hatchies go back to wherever you previously put them in the custom sort. 

 

The selection box works more separately from the sorting option than speculated. So I can't see a reason why it would need to untick itself.

 

I think that is deliberate - when I've moved things and accidentally put them on top, I am VERY glad to be able to revert to the custom sort I had just set up. I rather think we simply need to take the time to sort the way we want. It doesn't take THAT long.

[Platykwak]

I am also positively surprised and satisfied about the fact that the ticked egg/hatchie box works separately like an override, but not like a complete overwrite! So whether you have it ticked or not, it doesn't mess with the saved custom sort, and when unticked and saved, everything moves where manually set. That is nice, for sure. 

 

But why do I have to go tick it back on every single time I sort? If I had dead eggs, I'd probably move them elsewhere too - but then I would just go untick the box myself, because not wanting it would be a rare exception in my case. If I've ticked the box, that's my own settings, and now the site is messing with my settings on its own.

 

Edit: Those two tickboxes or Egg/Hatch Top & Reverse Sort, they are... interesting. They're placed together, they look the same, but they work differently.

• "Reverse Sort" does not work like a normal tickbox setting. Whenever you select it and save, it flips your scroll, and overwrites the normal order. The box gets unticked if you save your manual sort, but it does not matter. The scroll stays flipped until you click Reverse Sort and save again. You could have your scroll the normal order but still have the Reverse Sort box ticked, and vice versa. This is kinda weird.
• "Place Eggs and Unfrozen Hatchlings on top" does work like a normal tickbox. It's like an additional if-clause slapped on top of your scroll order, which comes into effect if the box is ticked. If you manual sort and save, it gets unselected, the clause disappears, and your babies get scrambled wherever the manual sort shows them. Essentially, as a tickbox this setting works, and it works very nicely without making permanent changes - but could it please stop unselecting itself without my input?

Edited December 8, 2023 by Platykwak

[TJ09]

This is working as intended: When you use custom sort, the order you see is the order they're in. This is directly incompatible with "put my things in a certain order but do some magic with specific things." Imagine trying to drag an egg down below some dragons but every time you saved it kept moving back up, because a setting on some other page said so. This is also the reason that "Place Eggs and Unfrozen Hatchlings on top" is in the "Automatically sort my dragons" section, not the "Manually determine the order of my dragons" section--you're choosing between the two things.

 

In the vast majority of cases, using custom sort means your eggs and unfrozen hatchlings are already at the top anyway--that's the position they default to. If they're not at the top (or in Manual Custom Sort terms, at 0), it's because you intentionally decided to sort them somewhere (in which case they should be where you put them--that's the point of custom sort), or because you used Manual Custom Sort to ensure certain dragons are always at the top by giving them a negative sort number. If you're seeing situations where new eggs are not already sorting at "0," then that's a bug.

[Platykwak]

Thank you TJ for your response. A confirmation like that is all I really needed.

 

I understand your side of the explanation now too: There could be other people getting confused why their sort didn't work, if they forgot that they still had an auto sort setting selected. (Even though this has resulted in the opposite confusion for me a couple times, haha. I've learned my lesson.) In the end it's only a minimal inconvenience for me, and now I know why it's there.

 

Gotta say, that Reverse Sort tickbox is a strange one in comparison, as I had written before. x) But that's another topic for other people to wonder about.