Lineage restoration of dragons with dead ancestors

[angelicdragonpuppy]

I realize that this is a BSA, but considering the large effect it would have on the game, I thought it would be wise to keep it in the more active suggestions forum rather than hiding it away in the BSA suggestion. If the mods disagree, they can feel free to move it.

 

BSA: Research

Dragon: Nilia Pygmy [other dragons can be suggested, but a pygmy definitely makes sense]

 

How it works:

 

- When a dragon is killed, its adult progeny gain the ability to have their ancestry researched

- If the action is performed on them, the lineage is restored to how it was before the death(s) occurred

- The restored dead are marked in some way that is obvious but not intrusive, such as having (Deceased) replace their name or code, or giving their box a black border

- If a lineage is restored, the restoration carries on to the offspring

- The action is only available if you own the adult when one or more of its ancestors is killed, so offspring of an unresearched dragon cannot perform research to restore their lineage. This means that deadlines cannot be researched as long as the deadline maker kills the dragons before they make eggs for others.

- Ideally there is a way to prevent research from being done on a dragon, so a deadline maker can stop themselves from accidentally researching their deadline.

 

In a nutshell:

 

1. You trade for a 3rd gen Shimmer, one without tombstones. and trade it's offspring.

- the 2nd gen owner kills the 2nd gen, turning your 3rd gen into a 2nd gen deadline

- you perform Research on your 3rd gen, and the lineage is "restored", but the dead 2nd gen has "dead" instead of it's name or a code. But the image is there, as are the names and IDs and pictures of it's still living ancestors

- In short, the dragon is restored to what you originally traded for.

- The people who have descendents of your researched dragon would have to research their dragons to restore the lineage

- For any eggs traded after you Research, the eggs will carry the researched lineage only

 

2. You trade for a 4th gen Deadline tinsel, with the deadlines already dead.

- you decide one day to peak behind the tombstones. However, you *can't* research it because the tombstones were there when you got it.

 

3. You traded for what will one day be a 4th gen Deadline tinsel, knowing it was going to be a deadline

- you don't run Research on it, because you want the deadline

 

4. You traded for what will one day be a 4th gen Deadline tinsel, that has 2 tombstones and 2 that will one day be tombstones and trade it's offspring

- you perform Research on it

- the two Tombstones that were there when you got it stay tombstones

- the two tombstones that were dragons when you got it turn back into dragons (in your view), and their lineage is restored

- The eggs traded before you researched the dragon stay the same as before you researched it (ie, showing 4 tombstones)

- The eggs traded after you researched it show 2 tombstones and 2 dead dragons

 

SO, in cases like that, will the can/can't see options be driven by who was dead before you got the egg or what lineage view the person who bred the egg chose to use on their dragon?

It would be based on the lineage view of the person who bred the dragon

I'll show two examples.

 

1) Someone is gifted a Tinsel that later becomes a Deadline. Quite liking the new look, they never choose to restore the lineage, and breed and gift that Tinsel's offspring. People would see those offspring as deadlines, because the parent's lineage was never restored.

 

2) Someone trades for a 2nd gen Holly. Later on, they find out that the Holly parent was killed, and choose to restore the lineage to prove it's a true 2nd gen Holly. Since they chose to restore the lineage, all offspring they breed will show the full lineage.

 

Alternate Ideas:

- Have a scroll option as to how lineages are seen. The default would be "do not show any changes to the lineage," so dragons that have ancestors killed after they are obtained would not show the change. The other option would be to show changes in lineages.

- Have an option on each dragon as to whether or not full lineage or tombstone lineage is shown.

- Have a scroll wide option as to whether or not full lineage or tombstone lineage is shown.

Edited June 3, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[TCA]

Actually this WOULD still ruin deadlines. Because the point of a deadline is to hide the former lineage from EVERYONE, not just the person making it. A 3rd-even-gen Silver Tinsel deadline with alternating tombstones and CB Thunders is created to appear that way to anyone who views it, not to appear that way to some and as a 13th-gen inbred mess to others- and I'm speaking as someone who created that lineage and two others, one with Bronzes and Magis and one with Gold Tinsels and Sunsongs.

 

Regardless, I don't think deadlines are an official point of gameplay, so they are not a reason to impede progress if your suggestion is viable. You should, however, remove that from your pros list, because it definitely doesn't belong there.

Edited January 23, 2013 by TheCompleteAnimorph

[Obscure_Trash]

Going to say no because I kind of like it how it is and I think it'd be pointless to have to keep information about the dragon once it's dead. That's the point of killing it - to get rid of it and its information. x3

 

I know it really sucks when a lineage you liked is suddenly very different because some dragon in it is killed, but if you want to control the whole fate of the line, you need to own all the dragons in the line. =U

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Actually this WOULD still ruin deadlines. Because the point of a deadline is to hide the former lineage from EVERYONE, not just the person making it. A 3rd-even-gen Silver Tinsel deadline with alternating tombstones and CB Thunders is created to appear that way to anyone who views it, not to appear that way to some and as a 13th-gen inbred mess to others- and I'm speaking as someone who created that lineage and two others, one with Bronzes and Magis and one with Gold Tinsels and Sunsongs.

 

Regardless, I don't think deadlines are an official point of gameplay, so they are not a reason to impede progress if your suggestion is viable. You should, however, remove that from your pros list, because it definitely doesn't belong there.

TCA, from what I've seen in trading threads, people who don't want deadlines will flat-out refuse deadlines no matter what--since they can't verify it, they don't want it, no matter that they can only see it in the pretty tombstone view. Meanwhile, people who like deadlines will, well, keep collecting them, and will probably keep the feature turned off if they want to keep seeing them that way.

 

Whereas forcing everyone to see the deadline's lineages WOULD upset people who enjoy the look of deadlines while still not having any effect on people who dislike deadlines to begin with.

 

So with that said, I'm leaving it up as a pro. ^^;

 

Going to say no because I kind of like it how it is and I think it'd be pointless to have to keep information about the dragon once it's dead. That's the point of killing it - to get rid of it and its information. x3

 

I know it really sucks when a lineage you liked is suddenly very different because some dragon in it is killed, but if you want to control the whole fate of the line, you need to own all the dragons in the line. =U

5. In terms of DC logic, keeping the images is, well, logical: As I know everyone knows, when we look at our dragons we are, in terms of what the game wants us to believe, looking not at them but at a record of them. Since our scrolls are records, it makes sense that we'd keep track of things like lineage no matter what happened to a dragon's ancestors. If you have a Golden Retriever that's been purebred for five generations, and its grandfather dies, you don't cross that grandfather out of its lineage and act like the identity of its forefathers is a mystery, now do you? Accordingly, whether or not an ancestor of our dragons is dead, we would logically still be keeping track of what those ancestors were.

 

I added this in after you posted, but I think it's a good counter for what you just said. Removing all traces of them from lineages just doesn't make sense! >___<

 

Plus, as I said, I think the current 'if you want to safeguard a pretty lineage, never trust anyone to help you with it' mentality is pretty sad.

Edited January 23, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Amur_Rama]

I have to shoot this down. I make Deadlines as well. Because I lack the trading power and friends in high places to get good dragons otherwise. I started with tinsels because the best I could get was 6th gen, and that was an AP catch. But I've done them with metallics since, and I like the flexibility it gives me. I can make a breeder out of an otherwise useless dragons.

 

I like having the power to make my own lines. Because I haven't seen a gold tinsel x Male Horse X Female Black Marrow alternate stairstep yet and if I had to wait for one to come down the "official" lines, well.... yeah, I'd sooner win the raffle and take grand prize first.

 

I'm sorry if you don't like deadlines ruining the look of your lines. But I prefer to not leave all the trading power with the 40 something people who have the only CB tinsels. Who, incidentally, can still get anything they ask for 2-3gens of their offspring. So I can't trade my deadlines for anything, it doesn't matter. I made them for me, so I can have something that superficially looks like a 2gen, that I can breed my own patterns and lineages from.

 

If the price is a tombstone in the upper corner? So be it. I plan my kills to try to make zombies out of them, so at least they might add novelty that way.

 

Until you figure out how to lower what people want for their low-gens so the rest of the us can get them legitimately. You shouldn't be allowed to ruin how I want to run my scroll because you want giant lineages of things. This suggestion only favors those who like big even lineages. I like low gens and CBs.

 

Giant Flaming Big NOOO from me.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

So I can't trade my deadlines for anything, it doesn't matter. I made them for me, so I can have something that superficially looks like a 2gen, that I can breed my own patterns and lineages from. 

 

You shouldn't be allowed to ruin how I want to run my scroll because you want giant lineages of things.  This suggestion only favors those who like big even lineages. I like low gens and CBs.

But, as I thought I made very clear, this would be entirely OPTIONAL. With the option off (as is the default) you would still see your deadlines exactly as you see them now. ;____;

 

Also, it certainly does not favor people who like big even lineages! I like low-gens, too, but look: imagine I trade someone multiple CB Metals for a 2nd gen Holly... and then they kill the parent! Instantly much of the worth of my Holly is destroyed, precisely because no one can tell it WAS low gen. I'd be /livid/ if that happened! This suggestion is meant to protect people's low gens just as much as their high gens.

 

But anyway...

 

People who want to see deadlines see deadlines. People who don't want to see tombstones don't see them. People who don't want to trade for deadlines now aren't going to want them any less after this is implemented, and in fact might want them more. I really don't see how this is a negative for anyone...? If you absolutely hate stuff you bred from a dragon and want to remove all association with it, just dumping it in the wild removes any association you had with it quite nicely.

 

Again, thinking of a lineage page as a record book in the DC sense, people who want to burn off a part of a family tree when a dragon dies can, and those who don't want to, well, don't.

Edited January 23, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Pokemonfan13]

o.o

 

Cheeze? Why would Cheeze start killing his dragons????

 

 

 

I love the idea, but like others said, it would ruin intentional tombstones in lineages. The only way would be if there was a way for the dragon killer to override this system, but that would kinda ruin the point since I'm sure people would use the override when it isn't strictly necessary.

[Obscure_Trash]

I know it makes sense an an RP-sense. =) I was actually going to say something about that, but couldn't figure out how to word it. I was really talking about site-wise and the way the site works, I don't think it makes sense. We kill things to get rid of them - for whatever reason. Otherwise we'd release them to the wild. :3

[whitebaron]

Lineage does not change for different people looking at it, since they look at the same scroll.

 

I don't care whether tombstones stay or not, but I do not want the confusion from different people seeing different stuff.

 

Thus, if you don't want to mess with deadlines, this would conclude me to a NO.

[TCA]

What if I want to see the dead CB Holly but I also want to see my pretty deadline lineage? :U

 

Look, no matter how you slice it, this ruins deadlines and trying to pretend that it doesn't is completely misleading.

Edited January 23, 2013 by TheCompleteAnimorph

[rayden54]

The way I see it, if someone else choose to kill their dragon, they shouldn't be able to ruin your dragon's lineage. Especially if you traded for it.

 

Look, no matter how you slice it, this ruins deadlines and trying to pretend that it doesn't is completely misleading.

As far as I'm concerned FINE. No one should be able to screw up someone else's game. Edited January 23, 2013 by rayden54

[Pokemonfan13]

Ooooooh!

 

I has idea!!!

 

Each dragon with one or more deceased dragons in its lineage has an action: "Show full ancestry" [or better name]. It lets the owner of the dragon set the dragon to show its lineage as if the dead dragon(s) were alive. No deadlines ruining unless the owner of the deadline dragon WANTS it "ruined". It does not affect how any other dragon is viewed, even its children would automatically show the dead as usual.

 

I think there would have to be something marking the dead dragon(s), but it seems like the best of both worlds.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Pokemonfan13

[Amur_Rama]

But, as I thought I made very clear, this would be entirely OPTIONAL. With the option off (as is the default) you would still see your deadlines exactly as you see them now. ;____;

 

If you can toggle it on and off, it still exists. When I deadline, I don't want the rest to appear. Ever. Otherwise what was the point of trying to trim the line? If you can toggle something on or off, it's never actually gone anywhere.

 

Also, it certainly does not favor people who like big even lineages! I like low-gens, too, but look: imagine I trade someone multiple CB Metals for a 2nd gen Holly... and then they kill the parent! Instantly much of the worth of my Holly is destroyed, precisely because no one can tell it WAS low gen. I'd be /livid/ if that happened! This suggestion is meant to protect people's low gens just as much as their high gens.

 

You could always take a timestamped screenshot when you make high-profile trades like that and keep them filed away. In the event of a dead ancestor, you would have that evidence. But the onus should be on the dragon's owner to ensure their pedigree. I don't reach over to fiddle with the owners' of my dog's parents' papers, nor should I demand that if they decide to throw all their records in the trash because they're getting out of the business, they should have to keep mine because I might want to sell puppies one day.

 

But anyway...

 

People who want to see deadlines see deadlines. People who don't want to see tombstones don't see them. People who don't want to trade for deadlines now aren't going to want them any less after this is implemented, and in fact might want them more. I really don't see how this is a negative for anyone...? If you absolutely hate stuff you bred from a dragon and want to remove all association with it, just dumping it in the wild removes any association you had with it quite nicely.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but that would be an incorrect assumption to put on me. The allure of the deadline is that it is a tabula rasa, if I know it's still hauling 70generations of inbred, jagged baggage, because I can click a button to vomit it all up and them put it away over and over again, then it's no different from just getting a 71gen dragon of inbreed, jagged random descent.

 

And as for dumping things in the wild. Then you just get that Wild Dragon name and still have the full lineage. So yeah, you can't do anything with that dragon, but it's and it's ancestors are still in the line. And now there's the chance that it'll spawn in the wild as well. Nothing against that, but I'd like an option to neuter and then toss into the wild... or chuck eggs there. Since putting them in the wild doesn't serve me, I kill them instead, and Bite eggs if they're the wrong breed. It's better than clogging the AP with them.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Amut un Rama

[rayden54]

If you can toggle it on and off, it still exists. When I deadline, I don't want the rest to appear. Ever. Otherwise what was the point of trying to trim the line? If you can toggle something on or off, it's never actually gone anywhere.

As long as all the descendants stay on your scroll, you can have your deadlines. It's everyone else that needs the toggle.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Ooooooh!

 

I has idea!!!

 

Each dragon with one or more deceased dragons in its lineage has an action: "Show full ancestry" [or better name]. It lets the owner of the dragon set the dragon to show its lineage as if the dead dragon(s) were alive. No deadlines ruining unless the owner of the deadline dragon WANTS it "ruined". It does not affect how any other dragon is viewed, even its children would automatically show the dead as usual.

 

I think there would have to be something marking the dead dragon(s), but it seems like the best of both worlds.

Oooh, I'd like this. Will add to the OP.

[Shamiir]

I'm a no.

There would be just no point to the kill action at all except for doing Zombies.

If i create a deadline, i want it to be a deadline.

[Amur_Rama]

As long as all the descendants stay on your scroll, you can have your deadlines. It's everyone else that needs the toggle.

 

What if someone else sees my scroll, also collects deadlines and wants one of mine? They get all the crud then, since that dragon wouldn't originate on their scroll.

 

I don't make mine to trade, but sometimes people like them so I have no compunctions against getting a few hatchlings for them.

 

 

 

 

IDEA!

 

Perhaps instead of a generic tombstone. We could have different gravestones depending on if the killed dragon was CB or bred. That would alert people that the dead dragon was a real CB or an honest deadline for trading. And people would still have their cleaned lines.

 

The regular tombstone would apply to hatchlings or ungendered dragons, since they can't be bred anyway.

 

 

Edit: Did the getting people's names on their quotes thing just happen? I like!

Edited January 23, 2013 by Amut un Rama

[Obscure_Trash]

(Lol, posts got eated, PF. Dx Should have seen that coming.)

 

Perhaps instead of a generic tombstone. We could have different gravestones depending on if the killed dragon was CB or bred. That would alert people that the dead dragon was a real CB or an honest deadline for trading. And people would still have their cleaned lines.

 

The regular tombstone would apply to hatchlings or ungendered dragons, since they can't be bred anyway.

 

I prefer this compromise to any of the others (yes, you still have to look at a tombstone but it gives you more info while still leaving lineages alone), but I still don't see a reason why the site needs to remember these details. ^^;;

 

When I create deadlines, I want that dragon to just look like a dead dragon. I don't need the extra judgement from whatever lineage/cb I used. =p

 

(If you use the quote function, it should always auto-add the names.)

 

The way I see it, if someone else choose to kill their dragon, they shouldn't be able to ruin your dragon's lineage. Especially if you traded for it.

 

But the lineage isn't yours - its compromised of (many different) dragons from (many different) user/s (well, assuming it's not all self-bred, lol). Why should you get to dictate how their dragon looks in a lineage?

 

As far as I'm concerned FINE. No one should be able to screw up someone else's game.

 

And if you bred the dragons yourself, the lineage won't be dependent on what someone else does.

 

I understand the breeding-community aspect and yeah, that's fun, but if you absolutely want to control the whole lineage, you need to own all the dragons. /shrug

Edited January 23, 2013 by SockPuppet Strangler

[CNR4806]

You people do realize that the lineage information being cut off from dead dragons is the entire reason that people bother with deadlines at all?

 

Unless it's a gen 13+, all involved parties have no excuse to be NOT aware of a deadline. I see plain no reason to use server resource to ruin current deadline players' playstyle, because the point of "protecting" traders simply cannot stand - you can't "scam" someone into believing a deadline dragon to be normal unless the other party is extra stupid.

 

The only downside of keeping it this way is that long lineages have the chance of having a lineage member killed off to ruin it, which is, unfortunately, an inherent risk of not being in control of all the dragons in the lineage, a risk that deadline creators should not have to sacrifice for you.

 

And please stop pretending that having the display "optional" will lead to a win-win scenario. It does not. We create deadlines to cut off the dragons' ties with their parents permamently to everyone, not to allow you to click a few buttons and reveal some 2123-inbred dragon behind them.

 

EDIT: This one is good enough for me.

Ooooooh!

 

I has idea!!!

 

Each dragon with one or more deceased dragons in its lineage has an action: "Show full ancestry" [or better name].  It lets the owner of the dragon set the dragon to show its lineage as if the dead dragon(s) were alive.  No deadlines ruining unless the owner of the deadline dragon WANTS it "ruined".  It does not affect how any other dragon is viewed, even its children would automatically show the dead as usual.

 

I think there would have to be something marking the dead dragon(s), but it seems like the best of both worlds.

Edited January 23, 2013 by CNR4806

[DarkEternity]

I'm a no. I believe there's been many arguments in the past if anyone wants to bring them up again. I believe that most of them are here: http://forums.dragcave.net/index.php?showtopic=126919&st=0

[Cinnamin Draconna]

IDEA!

 

Perhaps instead of a generic tombstone. We could have different gravestones depending on if the killed dragon was CB or bred. That would alert people that the dead dragon was a real CB or an honest deadline for trading. And people would still have their cleaned lines.

 

The regular tombstone would apply to hatchlings or ungendered dragons, since they can't be bred anyway.

I like this idea, since I doubt the original idea would work.

 

But I will put in my opinion. I HATE deadlines.. I HATE seeing tombstones in my lineage projects. I've had to start my 10 gen even gen purebred stripe project over TWICE because of folk killing their dragons. Dead dragons in lineages interferes with MY play style, which limits my ability to trade for what I need. Since I can't control other folks dragons, I can only trade for caveborns and 2nd gens.. because a dead 3rd gen or higher would destroy how my lineage looks.

 

So I for one would LOVE the ability to see past a tombstone, because then my project wouldn't be screwed over because someone wanted to kill their dragon.

[angelicdragonpuppy]

Ooooooh!

 

I has idea!!!

 

Each dragon with one or more deceased dragons in its lineage has an action: "Show full ancestry" [or better name].  It lets the owner of the dragon set the dragon to show its lineage as if the dead dragon(s) were alive.  No deadlines ruining unless the owner of the deadline dragon WANTS it "ruined".  It does not affect how any other dragon is viewed, even its children would automatically show the dead as usual.

 

I think there would have to be something marking the dead dragon(s), but it seems like the best of both worlds.

I favor PF's suggestion over Amut's. Even having a tombstone that can confirm CB status would destroy the look of a lot of lineages. Plus in some cases it wouldn't do much good at all (like verifying that my 2nd gen PB Stripe that had its dad killed is indeed PB T___T). Whereas PF's suggestion is a good compromise between those who want intact lineages vs those who do not (though I rather thought mine was as well...)

 

But whether it's PF's suggestion or mine or some new idea, I still insist something should be done. People are often told that once an egg leaves their scroll, they have no control over what happens to it. You can't demand an auto-abandon back or add it to a hatchery or insist the new owner breed it a certain way. So if people can't do that, why should they be allowed to potentially ruin the lineages of bred things that they've sent off their scrolls?

Edited January 23, 2013 by angelicdragonpuppy

[Shamiir]

OK, I has idea... but forgive if the lights be a bit dim.

 

I totally agree that it a shame that perfectly good and/or divine lineages can be ruined.

 

So..... what if TJ could code in a 'locking' mechanism, applied by the owner of a draggie, that disables the kill function - guaranteeing that said draggie could never be killed?

Subsequent breeders would disable their kill button and so on... creating a line that was unkillable.

 

Such lines would be more valued in trading than the risky ones that may end up with a deadline some time in the future.

 

The 'kill disabled' might be noted by a symbol next to the gender one (or other) so that a breeder checking their intended aquisitition could check through the lineage and see if each was 'guaranteed'

 

Worst case senario would be that the dragon could end up nameless in the wilderness.

 

I have no idea how coding works but TJ said once that nothing was impossible lol

 

 

[Varnayrah]

I understand the breeding-community aspect and yeah, that's fun, but if you absolutely want to control the whole lineage, you need to own all the dragons. /shrug

Of course this can only work with Dragons you can obtain CBs from. It's almost impossible for almost everyone to get for example CB Hollies or CB Tinsels, CB old pinks and Frills. It's incredibly difficult to get CB Metals. So if I wanted absolut control I could never dare to start a lineage with said dragons. That would be sad.

I don't have a clever idea on my own, but I like Pokemonfan's idea most.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Varnayrah

[tridymite]

Hm, not supporting. I like my dead lineages and like not to see/open the lineages of the dead ones.