Death Penalty

[MedievalMystic]

'Find the cure'?

 

Sometimes, there is no cure.

 

 

*knock knock*

 

You: **Who is it?**

 

**It's some strange guy you don't know that you're going to let in to use the phone because you're nice like that**

 

You: Oh, sure...no problem!

 

**guy punches you in the face and proceeds to break out knife**

You: O__O **Wait! Wait! We can discuss this like rational human beings! It doesn't have to be this way! I know of a great psychiatric ward, you'd be really comfortable in there! We can help you! I'm sure this is all a big misunderstanding!

 

You: "Um, what...? You'd like to see my collection of power tools? Um, well...yeah! Sure! My collection is actually quite extensive if I do say so myself... And really, isn't this better? See, we're talking like rational human beings...

 

Bad guy: **chuckles**

 

They find your rotting corpse a week later when the neighbors notice the stench.

 

lol

 

 

 

I have no idea why I did that. But anyway, that's what came to my mind...I tend to think in images.

Edited September 26, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[sparkle10184]

Actually, in my world, hate and vengeance feel pretty damn good when directed at those that deserve it, like those I've mentioned.

And what about the murderers who think what they're doing is right and justified? The people who think they actually have a good reason to kill?? How are we better than them? We do exactly what they do. We're fighting fire with fire.

[High Lord November]

'Find the cure'?

 

Sometimes, there is no cure.

 

How could you know when all you've been doing is clamouring for weapons and shooting people? If you don't look, you don't find. Unless you've tried anything beforehand and know 100% without doubt that they cannot improve, which I doubt you have the evidence for.

 

Also, murder doesn't justify more murder. Not all murderers are heartless frothing-at-the-mouth former-shell-of-a-human-being animals. If we actually tried to figure out why they committed such an extreme act, we'd probably prevent a future murder, and stop the propagation of that attitude onto other people. From what you've written here, all you want to do is kill them as soon as they kill anyone else, and you have no sympathy for them at all. I mean, I can understand why you'd feel that way if someone "ripped the face off of your loved one and ate it, and showed no remorse at all", but I cannot understand this attitude towards those "more common" people in prisons. If you want to reduce murder, don't make it an attitude propagated in prison. Once those people come out, they aren't going to be all butterflies and sunshine. I'm pretty sure there are stats floating around that show the likelihood of recommitting a crime or committing a new one once out of prison goes way up.

 

Throwing all the bad students in one place and magically expecting them to improve is asinine, as well as the idea that those bad students can never improve so it doesn't matter what they do anymore, they're being expelled permanently. There are some cases where is may be justified, but I'd rather save permanent time-out for those who, despite everything, are just absolutely hopeless, and try to help the others.

Edited September 26, 2014 by High Lord November

[Koroshiya-Ichi]

For some reason, I can't copy and paste your response, so I'll just answer it, Koroshiya-Ichi..

 

Killers, like those I mentioned, ....killing each other in prison! A slab of prime rib to the winner!

 

Do I care why? Does it matter to me? No. Not in the slightest. I just know that now we're down two killers. Better than having all three of them around.

 

He didn't target them out of a sense of justice? What's your point? I hope he gets a couple more while he's in there.

If it doesn't matter then that makes this a very cut-and-dry issue for you, which I have no problem with. But the people running the prisons and deciding on the punishments for these types of people have to take things like human rights, mental illness, other inmates' safety, etc. into consideration. You cannot and should not run the system purely on emotion.

 

(OT: Can you copypaste this post either? It's weird that you wouldn't be able to do it to my previous message, just curious if something is wrong with my posts or it was a one off glitch...)

[sparkle10184]

Apparently cats help prisoners My sister told me about this program some prison did to help rehabilitate the prisoners. They gave them pet cats that they had to take care of. Obviously not to animal abusers or whatever, but people in jail for other reasons. And guess what? It worked! It actually helped the rehabilitation process.

So why are we spending money on the death penalty when we could be spending money on CATS?

[Fuzzbucket]

Or, you know, we'd find the cure while you guys are busy killing yourselves and making the problem worse. You literally become part of the problem. And assuming that because we're crying for a cure we won't defend ourselves is false. In the end, the investment will pay off and we'll save countless lives, while you'll end up with a ton of collateral damage and no improvement whatsoever, especially if it's a widespread problem.

In most cases, rehab for crime would not only help those who committed it but, based off of what makes sense in my mind, reduce crime as well. Focusing on improving societal things would help reduce crime, decriminalizing drugs, decreasing poverty, et cetera. There are some people who will commit their crimes no matter what though, but we can decrease that number. And hey, it'd save your menial tax dollars! (someone pointed out above that life sentence with no chance of parole's still cheaper, if you're so focused on money).

 

In the end, what it comes down to for me is killing some people off debatably justifiably and killing some innocent people or people who didn't quite deserve that punishment. With your criminal system today, I wouldn't dare suggest that you implement that, because I guarantee it would be abused. Save confinement for those who really do something bad, just rehabilitate the others, improve general societal conditions to prevent crime, we're good.

 

 

 

 

Because if we tried to rehab them, maybe they wouldn't be murdering people at all any more. And if you think that that'll set someone off the path of crime and violence, you're deluded.

This. Halo or not, this.

[MedievalMystic]

Sparkle:

 

I have no need to be 'better' than them under certain circumstances.

 

Koro:

 

Actually, no. I don't give a damn. I just look at the bottom line. I don't care that someone chopped up the neighbors because they have an...issue. I just know that they did. Everything from that point on, for me, is totally and completely moot.

 

Highlord:

 

We all have our own ideas about what's justified and what isn't. If someone is coming at me with a butcher knife, I'm not going to be too inclined at that moment to worry about their mental state and what to do about it. In that moment, I'd feel justified in shooting first and asking questions later.

Edited September 26, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[sparkle10184]

Sparkle:

 

I have no need to be 'better' than them under certain circumstances.

 

Now I see where you're coming from. You have no need to be better than murderers. That makes sense; your viewpoint matches up to that.

[High Lord November]

Highlord:

 

We all have our own ideas about what's justified and what isn't. If someone is coming at me with a butcher knife, I'm not going to be too inclined at that moment to worry about their mental state and what to do about it. In that moment, I'd feel justified in shooting first and asking questions later.

 

 

You're mistaking self-defense for actions done in a non-threatening environment when we have time to think and choose what is best. Don't confuse the two, unless they are for you, one and the same.

[Koroshiya-Ichi]

Koro:

 

Actually, no. I don't give a damn. I just look at the bottom line. I don't care that someone chopped up the neighbors because they have an...issue. I just know that they did. Everything from that point on, for me, is totally and completely mute.

There are multiple "bottom lines" involved in this issue though. The problems inherent in the prison system intersect heavily with other issues like racial and socioeconomic inequality and discrimination, as well as mental illness, particularly trauma and substance abuse. There needs to be, at all times, people studying these factors and using the data to produce meaningful positive social change. This cannot happen if everyone looked at things the way you are describing.

[MedievalMystic]

Sparkle, I have no need for the approval of others in this conversation. It doesn't matter to me if the whole gang of you jump in here and tell me how heartless and horrible I am, because that is what you're implying, right? Ah, well... I will sleep very well tonight anyway.

 

Guilt, shame all that crap people on forums try and do when you have a differing view just doesn't work on me.

 

It makes me happy when the RL bad guys, the RL monsters, are put down permanently. And the reasons why they're getting their jollies hacking people to pieces be damned.

 

Getting them before they get me, or anyone else, makes me a horrible person somehow? Ah, well, nobody is perfect. So be it. I can live with it. Some people shouldn't be allowed to breath another second.

 

 

Koro...multiple bottom lines? Maybe to you.

Edited September 26, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[Koroshiya-Ichi]

To me and to everyone who does not see this issue in the black and white terms you describe. You aren't heartless or horrible, but I'm damn glad you're not in charge of making life-or-death decisions in criminal justice. Presumably.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Koroshiya-Ichi

[MedievalMystic]

Koro, you're right. I do see some things as black and white, because some things really are black and white.

 

Someone hits you in anger. You forgive them. Give them a second chance. They do it again. You give them yet another chance, believing they'll 'change' because they say they will and they act like they will. They do it yet again. What excuse do you make this time? And when does it end? You can apply that concept to a whole lot of different situations. Me? I'd only see the bottom line. Someone's hitting me. It's time to boot them out of my world for good, and that would be that, and the hell with the whys and why nots and the what if's...

 

Black and white. Life's a lot more simple and a whole lot less complicated without excuses imo. And that's how I like it.

 

In my world shades of grey do exist, but not about some things.

Edited September 26, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[sparkle10184]

Someone hits you in anger. You forgive them. Give them a second chance. They do it again. You give them yet another chance, believing they'll 'change' because they say they will and they act like they will. They do it yet again. What excuse do you make this time? And when does it end?

They have anger issues. I hope they'll go see a therapist.

[MedievalMystic]

@Sparkle...lmao!

Edited September 26, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[Koroshiya-Ichi]

Koro, you're right. I do see some things as black and white, because some things really are black and white.

 

Someone hits you in anger. You forgive them. Give them a second chance. They do it again. You give them yet another chance, believing they'll 'change' because they say they will and they act like they will. They do it yet again. What excuse do you make this time? And when does it end? You can apply that concept to a whole lot of different situations. Me? I'd only see the bottom line. Someone's hitting me. It's time to boot them out of my world for good, and that would be that, and the hell with the whys and why nots and the what if's...

 

Black and white. Life's a lot more simple and a whole lot less complicated without excuses imo. And that's how I like it.

 

In my world shades of grey do exist, but not about some things.

I don't think the situation you've described is really comparable to what we've been discussing thus far at all. But come on, how a person reacts to getting hit over and over again is ESPECIALLY full up with gray areas. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have people ignorantly asking "why do so many abuse victims return to their abusers when it's obvious they should just choose to leave?" There are so many more variables involved.

[MedievalMystic]

@Koro...

 

I'm not saying that issues and people within the system shouldn't be studied. As far as that goes, yes, there's a whole slew of things we can and should learn. Definitely. But honestly trust a proven serial killer or child predator, ever? No. There isn't enough rehab to be had for some types in this world, sad to say.

 

Koro, to YOU there might be plenty of grey areas in that hitting situation, but for me there just isn't. If someone is the type that would hit me in anger and hurt me like that, what else could I possibly need to know? I know everything I need to to be able to make a decision. It's right there, in my face.

 

Someone is hitting me. It's not ok. They've got to go. Right now. The end. It's just simple like that. You say that there are a lot of variables involved with people in a situation like that, and...etc, etc, etc....yeah. The way I see it, that's the problem in a lot of people's worlds. People complicate things with bs when it really isn't complicated at all.

 

But, we're getting off topic...

 

Time to get some sleep.

 

Some advice, especially for young chicks in their 20=30's, some REAL good advice. Don't ever, for any reason, not one time, not for one minute of one day, rely on a man, or any SO that you have, for money and a place to live. Always, no matter what, no matter how great that guy is, have money in your account for a rainy day. Then, you're never stuck putting up with some jackass.

Edited September 26, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[High Lord November]

It makes me happy when the RL bad guys, the RL monsters, are put down permanently. And the reasons why they're getting their jollies hacking people to pieces be damned.

Issue is, I find your definition of a monster to be way too loose.

 

Someone hits you in anger. You forgive them. Give them a second chance. They do it again. You give them yet another chance, believing they'll 'change' because they say they will and they act like they will. They do it yet again. What excuse do you make this time? And when does it end? You can apply that concept to a whole lot of different situations. Me? I'd only see the bottom line. Someone's hitting me. It's time to boot them out of my world for good, and that would be that, and the hell with the whys and why nots and the what if's...

No, that's wrong. What it really is is that someone hits you, you throw them in a room with a bunch of other people who got in trouble for punching people, as a punishment. Some people are there because they punched someone into a coma, some people are there because they got so frustrated that they had to result to physical contact to express themselves, some people are there because they accidentally hit someone. You take that person out, expecting them to not hit anyone else. They start hitting even more. You seem to be baffled as to why they're punching people even more, so you throw them back in the same room. Guess what? No one who comes out is going to get better. That is the issue I have with what you're saying.

And the person who punched someone into a coma? They need to be taught that what they did was wrong. Key word? Taught. Not

 

 

 

Your zombie analogy? It was abso-freaking-lutely spot on. Dead on. It's perfect. Thank you for bringing it up.

 

The real culprit causing people to turn into zombies is the virus. No matter how hard you try - you could try for all of eternity - you cannot kill a virus with guns and explosives. It's impossible. You cannot make the virus go away by killing the people it infects. It will infect other people. Do we agree? I think it's impossible not to agree at this point, it's a fact.

 

Now, the way the current system is set up, if someone is infected, we throw them into one space; let's call it prison. Now, the stupid thing is how this system is set up. People will get released based on how infected they were upon coming into the prison. The reality is, once you're in a room with a bunch of people who have smallpox and you only have the common cold, you aren't coming out completely healthy, or even with the same common cold. That's also a fact. You are going to get worse, and since you come out even more sick, the chances of you being thrown back in skyrocket.

 

There are people who want to kill everyone who is infected and turn or kill someone else because of it. That is not how you get rid of the infection. You get rid of the infection by finding some medicine that will kill/get rid of said infection. After treatment? There is a very high chance of them not recommitting a bite or murder, since they are no longer afflicted by the zombie virus, which affects how you think and act. Sometimes there might be a relapse, but most importantly it's rare.

 

Some people will not respond to the treatment properly. Some people might not respond at all. It is those people we isolate, for the safety of everyone, but we don't forget about them, and we only do it after it's proven that they cannot get better. Instead, for those who have trouble, we take them aside in a "prison" and give them specialized therapy. Still, some people might not response. Doesn't matter; we follow the above method, to confine them away from other people, but not forget about them. And those are only the people who cannot respond to treatment. We don't throw someone who's relatively healthy in with someone who's reeking of the infection. That's asinine.

 

Now, some places are more affected by the zombie infection than others. People who live in poverty, or those areas, have more exposure to the infection, since it's less organized and clean, and they have less access to health care to prevent the infection from getting on them. Of course, because it's an infection, it will also affect some people who live in perfectly good areas. They will want to hide it, though, because they're ashamed of it, and having the infection is something dangerous, and the don't want to be seen as broken or wrong. The thing is, if you leave something untreated, it doesn't get better, it just gets worse. So then they eventually begin to turn. This is an indication that we need a better screening process to identify those people with the virus, and we need to change the societal view on the virus so we can more easily help those affected wit it and it isn't so shaming to have it.

 

But now, because we've found a cure - not a cure-all, but a good cure nonetheless - the prevalence of zombies has drastically been reduced.

 

 

If we were to just shoot them all, nothing would ever improve. You'd just be left with an infection that would take hold of more and more people, and in the near future, you'd be left with more deaths than the society who decided to tackle the problem and realize that those with the infection are still human, they're just a bit sick and need some help.

[High Lord November]

@Koro...

 

I'm not saying that issues and people within the system shouldn't be studied. As far as that goes, yes, there's a whole slew of things we can and should learn. Definitely. But honestly trust a proven serial killer or child predator, ever? No. There isn't enough rehab to be had for some types in this world, sad to say.

 

Koro, to YOU there might be plenty of grey areas in that hitting situation, but for me there just isn't. If someone is the type that would hit me in anger and hurt me like that, what else could I possibly need to know? I know everything I need to to be able to make a decision. It's right there, in my face.

 

Someone is hitting me. It's not ok. They've got to go. Right now. The end. It's just simple like that. You say that there are a lot of variables involved with people in a situation like that, and...etc, etc, etc....yeah. The way I see it, that's the problem in a lot of people's worlds. People complicate things with bs when it really isn't complicated at all.

 

But, we're getting off topic...

 

Time to get some sleep.

Koro, to YOU there might be plenty of grey areas in that hitting situation, but for me there just isn't. If someone is the type that would hit me in anger and hurt me like that, what else could I possibly need to know? I know everything I need to to be able to make a decision. It's right there, in my face.

 

That's the hilarious thing. You don't know anything. You don't. You are assuming everything. And you know what we say about assuming, it makes an out of u and me.

[Koroshiya-Ichi]

@Koro...

 

I'm not saying that issues and people within the system shouldn't be studied. As far as that goes, yes, there's a whole slew of things we can and should learn.  Definitely.  But honestly trust a proven serial killer or child predator, ever?  No.  There isn't enough rehab to be had for some types in this world, sad to say.

 

Koro, to YOU there might be plenty of grey areas in that hitting situation, but for me there just isn't.  If someone is the type that would hit me in anger and hurt me like that, what else could I possibly need to know?  I know everything I need to to be able to make a decision.  It's right there, in my face. 

 

Someone is hitting me.  It's not ok.  They've got to go.  Right now.  The end.  It's just simple like that.  You say that there are a lot of variables involved with people in a situation like that, and...etc, etc, etc....yeah.  The way I see it, that's the problem in a lot of people's worlds.  People complicate things with bs when it really isn't complicated at all. 

 

But, we're getting off topic... 

 

Time to get some sleep.

This is getting into some really victim blamey territory and I don't think it's appropriate or on topic, so I think you're right and we should just leave it at this before we get more off topic.

 

 

 

I agree that there aren't any currently known reliable methods to rehabilitate people like child molesters, violent sociopaths or serial killers. But putting them to death eliminates them as a source of research and, more importantly IMO, as the only likely source of information about other victims, missing people and unsolved cases. If there is even a tiny chance that a person will give up information in the future that allows a family to bring home a missing or murdered loved one's remains, I think that chance is too precious to give up in favor of execution.

 

Merely convicting an offender of capital crimes and putting them on death row causes some investigators to quietly downgrade/drop active investigations because, hey, they're already on death row, no point in pursuing any more charges. I have seen this happen in too many cases. It happens even more frequently when the offender is put to death. Hey, they're dead, why keep spending money determining whether or not they victimized anyone else? I find that inexcusable.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Koroshiya-Ichi

[sparkle10184]

Yeah, life would probably be simpler without grey areas of what ifs and buts, but that's not life. Life isn't black and white. People aren't black and white. There isn't such a simple distinction between good guys and bad guys as you claim there is. It would nice if the world was like that, but that isn't reality.

So, someone hits me. What should I do? You claim just because they hit me I should know everything about them and their life and their choices, and I should hit back. But that's not true. I don't and neither do you. Everything is so much more complicated than that. Maybe they're mentally ill, maybe I unknowingly did something to provoke them, maybe they feel guilty. I don't know why they did what they did or if they have a good reason or if they can change. Those things are things I need to know before I can respond effectively.

When a five year old hits a classmate, there is a good chance the classmate will hit back. That's because they're five years old and their brains are not fully developed and at that moment all they know is that some kid just hit them and now they don't like that kid and they want to get that kid back for what they did. But we are not five years old. The criminal justice system is not five years old. So please tell me why we are acting like five year olds instead of responsible, mature adults.

[Koroshiya-Ichi]

This is an indication that we need a better screening process to identify those people with the virus, and we need to change the societal view on the virus so we can more easily help those affected wit it and it isn't so shaming to have it.

This is one of the most important things that people have to realize. Regardless of what you think of the death penalty, we need more research and information about the effects and causes of mental illness, trauma, substance abuse, and the role of social inequality in crime. We need to be pinpointing with better accuracy the early warning signs of things like antisocial personality disorder and look into possible undiscovered treatment options. We need to educate everyone - but especially parents and guardians - on how to spot these warning signs, and provide them and the afflicted person with a place to go to get treatment. If they are untreatable or they hurt someone, then they need a place to be fairly and humanely kept away from their target victims. For some this may indeed mean prison, but the prison system needs a full-scale overhaul before it becomes adequate for the housing and care of these types of people.

 

Funds need to be diverted away from farcical resource sinks like the "War on Drugs" and devoted to the things I have described above. At the very freaking least, more funds need to be allocated to juvenile facilities to make them better. Abuse and gang violence is rampant in all prisons that I'm aware of, but the juvenile facilities are what worry me most. These are where so many future convicts learn that the system will not protect them from being targeted, be it for smalltime cons or hugely damaging assaults or rapes. Many of them leave these places and go back to homes and neighborhoods that are just as bad or worse, especially impoverished people and/or people of color. This isn't just a problem with our courts or jails, it's a full-blown culture sickness. We need to change the way we look at offenders and their treatment, and figure out what the hell we can do to improve it. Because it's shockingly dismal as it is.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Koroshiya-Ichi

[MedievalMystic]

Highlord, whatever you say.

 

 

The only thing I do know is that in certain situations, for me personally, some things are really simple and easy. I never said they were for anyone else. That it's not is obvious.

 

Oh, as far as the whole zombie thing...yes, I hear all you're saying...but the conversation wasn't about all the measures that could be taken were that situation to arise..it was about the morality of blowing their brains out vs finding the cure if they were to come after you.

 

And I'm not blaming anyone for anything, all I'm saying is that people do have brains. People can think. Plan. If you go on a long trip, doesn't it make sense to fill the tank first? That's pretty simple logic to me.

 

What's that quote? Life isn't complicated, people make life complicated? Yeah. That one.

 

Anyway, who cares? You think as you please. I will, too. And to each their own.

Edited September 26, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[Esmeia]

Hm. Rather complicated issue.

 

That really boils down to WHAT the crime is. As well as why that person did it in the first place. There's obviously different degrees here. I have absolutely zero tolerance for serial killers, rapists (especially child molesters), and various other serious offenses that can never be fixed no matter how much regret that criminal may feel afterward. I feel, in these extreme and unforgivable cases, the vast majority of the criminals knew exactly what they were doing before going through with it. I'm not convinced most of them didn't have an idea of what they were doing was wrong/evil/unacceptable. The fact that most of them go to great lengths to hide it proves that. So, if I'm honest, I do believe there are crimes worthy of death.

 

However, I would also be just as happy to see them spending life in prison. If that's REALLY what they're going to get, and not for it to be changed later on because they "seem reformed". I feel, once you've crossed certain lines, there's really no going back. My ultimate concern is just to see them taken off the streets and away from the general population so they never have the opportunity to harm again. Sorry, but I'm not too convinced someone who commits a particularly evil crime can be truly rehabilitated and trusted to go back into society. Death or life in prison, whichever one works out for the best.

 

And, if they DO get out for whatever reason, they need to always have strict tabs on them. I can understand that prisons get too crowded, and people have to make a decision to let some of them out. Unfortunately, that's rather inevitable. But they should have permanent restrictions (like the sex offenders list, for example. Don't let a child molester have ANY significant contact with minors, period.), and should definitely get checked up on regularly to make sure they really ARE staying out of trouble. Even give them a support group/system so they can work out whatever's contributing to the deviant behavior. And allow them to have jobs that wouldn't enable their bad behavior again - being employed would potentially keep them occupied and out of some bad situations. Warn people around them so they themselves can take precautions (I find it absurd that particularly dangerous individuals can move into a neighborhood of completely unsuspecting people...).

 

Help for the mentally ill is a HUGE thing too. Better to prevent any crimes than to react when it's much too late. As much as I despise most of the serious criminals, some DO seek out help when they recognize a problem in themselves, at least. Meet them halfway. Research should always go into this area, that I firmly believe.

[MedievalMystic]

I never said there weren't grey areas in life, Sparkle. Of course there are. I said in some situations, for me personally, there is no grey.

 

 

Maybe you did this, maybe you did that, maybe if you'd worn a red shirt instead of a black one you wouldn't have gotten backhanded across the room today. What's your point? That the 'maybe's' make it alright? That the 'grey areas' justify the behavior? Makes it good? Tolerable? Deserving of sympathy? Deserving of understanding? Maybe, maybe, maybe....And? Come up with 100 different 'maybe's' and it's not good enough for me. It doesn't excuse it, make it right, make it tolerable, make it good in any way. What are you saying? To me, none of those 'maybe's' matters a damn, not one little, tiny microscopic whit. And that makes it real black and white and real easy.

 

Honestly, just seeing right there the endless excuses you just made for that non existent person hitting you is scary as hell to me. It really is.

Edited September 26, 2014 by MedievalMystic