Death Penalty

[Nine]

I would rather one hundred guilty parties go free than see one innocent person put to death.

 

That's about all I have to say on the subject.

Setting free one hundred convicted felons-- charged with crimes serious enough to warrant a DP sentence-- would no doubt result in more innocent people dying than the one person it would save in your example.

 

I don't know, I'd rather have fewer innocent people die. =S

[sparkle10184]

Personally, if one of my loved ones was murdered, I would not want to see the murderer put to death. I would want to be done with death and killing. Of course I've never had to go through that so maybe my views would be different. But take a look at this:

Many family members who have lost love ones to murder feel that the death penalty will not heal their wounds nor will it end their pain; the extended process prior to executions can prolong the agony experienced by the family. Funds now being used for the costly process of executions could be used to help families put their lives back together through counseling, restitution, crime victim hotlines, and other services addressing their needs.

quoted from deathpenalty.org Edited June 5, 2013 by sparkle10184

[Kestra15]

If I trusted the judicial system to apply the death penalty only to criminals who actually deserved it, I would consider it an acceptable punishment for a crime. However, I've been given ample cause not to trust the judicial system to come to the correct verdict, and thus I cannot in all conscience condone it as a punishment.

This, pretty much. And this:

 

But I'd rather see the death penalty than see convicted murderers released from jail.

[Fightandspawn]

For murder and certain crimes, yes, execute them NOW. I wish the wait list was a lot quicker though.

[Shienvien]

For murder and certain crimes, yes, execute them NOW. I wish the wait list was a lot quicker though.

Even during this century, innocent people have received death penalty for murders they did not commit. Consider that.

[philpot123]

Even during this century, innocent people have received death penalty for murders they did not commit. Consider that.

The possibility of mistakes doesn't go to the essential issue here. The fundamental question is whether or not someone who commits murder, or rape, etc. is deserving of death. What is the just penalty for those crimes? Once that question has been resolved, then you can deal with the practical applications, evidence standards, etc., but until that question is resolved, the conversation is useless.

[AzureWyrmsblood]

I live in a country where the Death Penalty is illegal and honestly, we would definitely benefit from it's legalisation. Many offenders will be released from prisons only to re-offend crimes mostly worse from the original.

 

People up and down the country are paying their taxes to give these people a warm bed and three meals a day when they are spending their second prison sentence after killing an innocent person or breaking into a home and stealing someones well-earned belongings. There are too many people who commit crimes because the punishment isn't even punishing. Perhaps certain minor crimes for first/second time offenders wouldn't receive such a harsh punishment , but many crimes need that type of reinforcement if we want crime levels to decrease.

 

We shoot perfectly nice and trained family dogs with the reason that they nipped a childs finger which is often due to the situation the dog is in. Why do we kill canines that have done minimal harm but let murderers and thieves run free?

[Fuzzbucket]

The possibility of mistakes doesn't go to the essential issue here. The fundamental question is whether or not someone who commits murder, or rape, etc. is deserving of death. What is the just penalty for those crimes? Once that question has been resolved, then you can deal with the practical applications, evidence standards, etc., but until that question is resolved, the conversation is useless.

The fundamental answer is that just because someone kills, that does not make it OK for another person to kill them. That is effectively descending to their level. Rehabilitation would be good. Only the Scandinavian countries and the Netherlands seem to bother with that any more.

 

And yes it DOES matter if even one innocent person is wrongfully executed. That IS a valid reason for being against the death penalty. That would be murder. That would be deliberately killing someone who was guilty of no crime at all. Which is exactly what any murderer does.

 

Justice systems all over the world are highly unreliable. I am NOT OK with their having the right to take lives. That would remain true even if I were OK with the death penalty - which I am not.

 

People who say they seek "justice" more often seek retribution, revenge or "punishment."

[Koroshiya-Ichi]

I fully believe that there are people on this earth who deserve to die. But I do not believe that our broken, biased and corrupt criminal justice systems are qualified to make the determination of who deserves to die in a manner that justifies putting anyone to death. You can never fully remove human error and corruption from the equation, but the fact that so few people are even trying to lessen the frequency and severity of such events, and that another segment of the population believes it doesn't need to be done at all... well. I can't advocate anyone handing down the ultimate punishment - the denial of one's right to life - while our courts, police, prisons, and so on are still operating under such conditions.

 

edit to add:

Aside from the execution of innocent people, the situation that really upsets me is when a serial killer is executed for crimes they've been convicted of but there are unsolved/cold cases in which they are suspected, and their execution puts an end to the ability to attempt to engage with them in order to obtain more information on those cases in the future.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Koroshiya-Ichi

[sparkle10184]

I don't care if only one mistake was made resulting in only one death. (Which is of course not the case.) That one life still mattered. I'm not going to support something that causes death if there are other possible solutions.

[AzureWyrmsblood]

I don't care if only one mistake was made resulting in only one death. (Which is of course not the case.) That one life still mattered. I'm not going to support something that causes death if there are other possible solutions.

 

Then why put them in prison at all. Why not just make all crime legal? Or just let all the murderers continue living in prison, getting three meals a day payed with hard-working tax-payers money and let them out to kill a dozen people.

 

If this is your view, is there a solution you have in mind to prevent the convicted ever convicting again. Or even preventing it in the first place? (I'd honestly like to hear)

 

Perhaps this isn't the best or most moral solution, but maybe it's all we can really do in this day and age. There are roughly 7.5 billion people on the earth now, the few lives that are taken might help keep the balance of peace for those who remain.

[Fuzzbucket]

Then why put them in prison at all. Why not just make all crime legal? Or just let all the murderers continue living in prison, getting three meals a day payed with hard-working tax-payers money and let them out to kill a dozen people.

 

If this is your view, is there a solution you have in mind to prevent the convicted ever convicting again. Or even preventing it in the first place? (I'd honestly like to hear)

 

Perhaps this isn't the best or most moral solution, but maybe it's all we can really do in this day and age. There are roughly 7.5 billion people on the earth now, the few lives that are taken might help keep the balance of peace for those who remain.

It is NOT the only - or even the best - solution. Rehabilitation has been shown to work. But it isn't cheap - and people object to paying taxes, and decent prison services cost money. Sadly the same applies to all sorts of things. People complain about litter - but don't want to pay for street cleaning. To paying for education - but they want THEIR kids in school. The list is endless. Prisoners are an easy target because they are, like, NOT HUMAN and don't DESERVE another chance.

[sparkle10184]

Then why put them in prison at all. Why not just make all crime legal? Or just let all the murderers continue living in prison, getting three meals a day payed with hard-working tax-payers money and let them out to kill a dozen people.

 

If this is your view, is there a solution you have in mind to prevent the convicted ever convicting again. Or even preventing it in the first place? (I'd honestly like to hear)

 

Perhaps this isn't the best or most moral solution, but maybe it's all we can really do in this day and age. There are roughly 7.5 billion people on the earth now, the few lives that are taken might help keep the balance of peace for those who remain.

Jail isn't as peachy keen as it's made out to be. People die in jail. Murderers murder in jail. People get raped in jail. People are beaten in jail.

People complain about how unfair it is that prisoners get free meals, but do you really think they're not paying a price?

 

The death penalty costs more money than keeping prisoners in jail.

[AzureWyrmsblood]

Not that often. And the cost of keeping a prisoner depends on how long they are in there. A life-time sentence costs far more than the death sentence. And if people do get murdered in jail, surely it would be fairer not to let them die brutally? And what happens to those who do murder in jail?

 

Compared to what they used to be like, jails are quite fair. I've been inside a prison (In Britain, I'm not sure what other prisons are like), and compared to certain people of the population, it's a lot more preferable. A rumor that has been floating around is that people purposely offend to live in prison. (Which again is milking taxpayers money)

[sparkle10184]

Not that often. And the cost of keeping a prisoner depends on how long they are in there. A life-time sentence costs far more than the death sentence. And if people do get murdered in jail, surely it would be fairer not to let them die brutally? And what happens to those who do murder in jail?

 

Compared to what they used to be like, jails are quite fair. I've been inside a prison (In Britain, I'm not sure what other prisons are like), and compared to certain people of the population, it's a lot more preferable. A rumor that has been floating around is that people purposely offend to live in prison. (Which again is milking taxpayers money)

No it doesn't. The death penalty is more expensive than life imprisonment. According to studies done in California, it costs $90,000 more to sentence a person to death row compared to life imprisonment with no possibility of parole.

The death penalty is so expensive due to high-costing capital trials, legal representation, and heightened security.

[Obscure_Trash]

It's interesting to see people who would prefer the death penalty in place of improving the prison system. If the prison system doesn't work, that does not automatically mean the problem is "we're not being tough enough". Perhaps how we are treating prisoners is not working.

[Fuzzbucket]

It's interesting to see people who would prefer the death penalty in place of improving the prison system. If the prison system doesn't work, that does not automatically mean the problem is "we're not being tough enough". Perhaps how we are treating prisoners is not working.

Exactly. All the evidence suggests that the "tougher" the prison, the higher the levels of recidivism. There is no incentive to better yourself, get over whatever drove you to crime.

[MedievalMystic]

If someone, people like Dahmer, Bundy, Zodiac, Gacy, Gein, etc, etc, etc, all those types, is proved to be guilty beyond any doubt whatsoever, none, of committing such heinous crimes, exterminate them immediately. Put them in front of a firing squad for all I'd care and good riddance.

 

 

If Dahmer had sliced up, cooked and eaten one of your family members and stored their remains in his freezer and you found out the gory, sick details and had that godawful vision stuck in your head till the day you died, would you want to hear about rehabilitation plans? lmao Right. I believe in giving people as much mercy as they show others. They show none, they get none. Simple.

 

And please, don't mention their 'rights' to me. What rights? After crimes like that, they don't have rights as far as I'm concerned. I was happy as a clam when Dahmer got his ass beaten to death by another inmate. I actually lol'd the day I heard that glorious news. I hope they gave that inmate a nice, juicy steak that day. He did the world a big, fat favor.

Edited September 26, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[Fuzzbucket]

If Dahmer had sliced up, cooked and  eaten one of your family members  and stored their remains in his freezer and you found out the gory, sick details and had  that godawful vision stuck in your head till the day you died,  would you want to hear about rehabilitation plans?

Yes, I would. Don't presume to guess what is in the minds of others. I believe in forgiveness, myself, and that there is good in everyone..

 

lmao

And this is funny - how exactly ?

 

[MedievalMystic]

Yes, I would.

 

Can you turn down the wattage on that halo, Fuzz? It's a little bright. And can you speak a little louder? I can't hear you from that high up.

 

Why was I laughing? You wouldn't get it.

 

 

 

 

 

I was watching Through The Wormhole and they were discussing whether or not a human zombie apocalypse was actually possible under the right circumstances, and to make a long story short, yes, under weird conditions, some mutated virus could turn people into mindless, aggressive killing machines.

 

After reading your post, Fuzz, I had this vision in my head of that actually happening, people by the hundreds and thousands, infected with some virus that enrages them beyond any control and makes them capable of doing some seriously heinous damage to the rest of humanity, going berserk, attacking others, ripping their faces off...like that nut job did to the guy in Florida not too long ago... And yes, I'm sure he's got some good somewhere... I'll leave it up to you to find it, Fuzz. Because, after ripping a guys face off, I don't care what the hell his damn problem is.

 

 

I'd be on the side of the fence with other people screaming at the military to break out the nukes, flamethrowers, whatever they've got and kill these damn animals, and I'd be first in line at the gun shop to defend me and mine.

 

Then I imagine the other side of the fence. I imagine this other group of people standing there, wasting time...imo...screaming about rehabilitation and finding a cure....only to be snatched by one of them and their face gets ripped off....

 

Same thing, imo. If someone is proven beyond all doubt to be an animal, an enemy of humanity, with absolutely no conscience to speak of and no capacity for empathy or mercy, blow their freaking brains out for all I care. Rid the world of a pestilence.

 

They'd like to eradicate ebola. I guess I should feel sorry for it. After all, it's only doing what it exists to do. Destroy. Same thing with Dahmer types in my mind.

 

'Good in everyone'? And you really have to ask why I'm laughing?

 

The less predators walking among us the better, imo. I can sleep at night.

 

No halos here.

Edited September 26, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[Fuzzbucket]

Can you turn down the wattage on that halo, Fuzz? It's a little bright. And can you speak a little louder? I can't hear you from that high up.

 

Why was I laughing? You wouldn't get it.

Clearly not.

 

I have no halo. But hate and vengeance are corrosive.

[MedievalMystic]

But hate and vengeance are corrosive.

 

Actually, in my world, hate and vengeance feel pretty damn good when directed at those that deserve it, like those I've mentioned.

Edited September 26, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[Koroshiya-Ichi]

And please, don't mention their 'rights' to me.  What rights?  After crimes like that, they don't have rights as far as I'm concerned.  I was happy as a clam when Dahmer got his ass beaten to death by another inmate.  I actually lol'd the day I heard that glorious news.  I hope they gave that inmate a nice, juicy steak that day.  He did the world a big, fat favor. 

The inmate that killed Jeffrey Dahmer, Christopher Scarver, was himself a murderer. When he killed Dahmer he also killed another inmate, beating them both with an iron bar and adding a gruesome +2 to Scarver's existing body count. He did not target these men out of any sense of justice. Scarver was also diagnosed with severe mental illness, which likely contributed to all of his attacks. Does any of that really deserve a steak? Jesus, the irony is thick in here.

 

 

 

I was going to reply earlier to SockPuppet Strangler but changed my mind because I had a bad headache and didn't want the debate, but I saved my post and here it is:

 

The U.S. prison system is run as a business that lacks necessary oversight, and struggles with an appalling lack of resources and staff. There is ignorance in the general population (pardon my pun) about what actually goes on in jails/prisons, and rampant apathy that smacks of "everyone in there is a piece of crap anyhow, who cares." Inmates are not adequately protected from horrific abuses, the understaffing puts both inmates and staff at risk, what passes for mental healthcare is laughable. This is true of both adult and juvenile facilities. Even when inmates are released there are almost no systems in place that help them rebuild their lives and they have few incentives to better themselves, particularly those convicted of more serious or violent crimes.

 

The allocation of resources over the scope of the entire criminal justice system is completely baffling to me. Clearly what we are doing is not working, nor has it ever worked. People have got to stop turning off their conscience just because a person has committed a horrific crime. Contrary to popular belief, people do not stop being humans and turn into monsters and boogeymen when this happens. You can think of criminals as scum all you want, but TREATING them like scum is both foolish and dangerous. The people that will never be released are still people, killers and rapists and torturers are still human beings. It's always strange and gross to me when people admit a desire to gleefully induce great suffering in another person, whilst simultaneously condemning someone else's cruelty.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Koroshiya-Ichi

[MedievalMystic]

For some reason, I can't copy and paste your response, so I'll just answer it, Koroshiya-Ichi..

 

Killers, like those I mentioned, ....killing each other in prison! A slab of prime rib to the winner!

 

Do I care why? Does it matter to me? No. Not in the slightest. I just know that now we're down two killers. Better than having all three of them around.

 

He didn't target them out of a sense of justice? What's your point? I hope he gets a couple more while he's in there.

Edited September 26, 2014 by MedievalMystic

[High Lord November]

I'd be on the side of the fence with other people screaming at the military to break out the nukes, flamethrowers, whatever they've got and kill these damn animals, and I'd be first in line at the gun shop to defend me and mine.

 

Then I imagine the other side of the fence. I imagine this other group of people standing there, wasting time...imo...screaming about rehabilitation and finding a cure....only to be snatched by one of them and their face gets ripped off....

 

Or, you know, we'd find the cure while you guys are busy killing yourselves and making the problem worse. You literally become part of the problem. And assuming that because we're crying for a cure we won't defend ourselves is false. In the end, the investment will pay off and we'll save countless lives, while you'll end up with a ton of collateral damage and no improvement whatsoever, especially if it's a widespread problem.

In most cases, rehab for crime would not only help those who committed it but, based off of what makes sense in my mind, reduce crime as well. Focusing on improving societal things would help reduce crime, decriminalizing drugs, decreasing poverty, et cetera. There are some people who will commit their crimes no matter what though, but we can decrease that number. And hey, it'd save your menial tax dollars! (someone pointed out above that life sentence with no chance of parole's still cheaper, if you're so focused on money).

 

In the end, what it comes down to for me is killing some people off debatably justifiably and killing some innocent people or people who didn't quite deserve that punishment. With your criminal system today, I wouldn't dare suggest that you implement that, because I guarantee it would be abused. Save confinement for those who really do something bad, just rehabilitate the others, improve general societal conditions to prevent crime, we're good.

 

 

For some reason, I can't copy and paste your response, so I'll just answer it, Koroshiya-Ichi..

 

Killers, like those I mentioned, ....killing each other in prison! biggrin.gif A slab of prime rib to the winner!

 

Do I care why? Does it matter to me? No. Not in the slightest. I just know that now we're down two killers. Better than having all three of them around.

 

He didn't target them out of a sense of justice? What's your point? I hope he gets a couple more while he's in there.

 

Because if we tried to rehab them, maybe they wouldn't be murdering people at all any more. And if you think that that'll set someone off the path of crime and violence, you're deluded.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2014 by High Lord November