Viewbombers problem

[Cinnamonear]

We have to do something about that. 

There are more and more cases of people viewbombing eggs/hatchies, causing them to become sick or to hatch/grow.

I don't think there are many people that would like to have their growing dragons damaged.

Also the viewbombers do that to thuweds or SAltkins, because they are probably not good at catching and don't want other people to catch 2g thuweds or SAltkins. That is very cruel!

 

The technique consists not only in FART-ing the eggs/hatchies (that would not be such a big problem since the OV:UV ratio is limited to 15), but adding them into hatcheries, to boost the UVs, therefore allowing the OVs to go up! 

 

If we identified the people who are doing this, the problem would be solved. Unfortunately there's almost no chance we can do that.

 

The only solutions I could think of are:

1. Hide the progeny page of SAlts and Thuweds - that will make 2g hunting almost impossible

2. Add an "accept aid" verifier - I think it's the best solution

 

 

I'm sorry if the topic already exists in a way or another or the subject was already debated

[Fuzzbucket]

Hide your scroll. that is THE primary solution. Anything in the AP is effectively fair game. And it is easy to bomb without using hatcheries, so the verifier would only be a partial answer.,

[Cinnamonear]

What about Thuweds?
Last 5 generations grew up wild

[Platykwak]

Technically yes, we had the discussion about such things a while ago, but it mostly consisted of AP egg protection stuff at first... However, as you were earlier helping with it too, we eventually shifted the focus to the first improvement attempt we'd like implemented: the "accept aid" verifier.

I believe that it is currently the most feasible option going forward. It's just that the conversation has gone silent for now.

 

I'd like to remind that the idea is endorsed by TJ himself. AND, that just because other venues of bombing exist, we should still discuss possible improvements we could have.

Honestly, Fuzz - we know, we know that there will be other ways to bomb. But many of us are still wishing to pursue changes.

 

vvv Below is TJ's own comment in Silvi thread - bolded emphasis made by me! vvv

 

On 2/23/2024 at 4:51 AM, TJ09 said:

Yes, the field was poorly-documented and probably didn't work for a while, so it's not a surprise it isn't being used. No blame is being directed at you or any other hatchery developer for not using it, but moving forward it'd be nice to start.

 

This is discussed over in this thread:

 

But the goal is to protect people's privacy and avoid possible harassment of people who pick up eggs from the AP by making it impossible to differentiate an egg that is in the AP from one that is not.

 

The AP thing is a bit beside the point anyway. If someone turns off the "accepting aid" notice, then hatcheries should help respect that option. There are always more possible abuse vectors but that doesn't mean we shouldn't bother fixing the ones we can control.

 

I'm thinking that we are currently to wait for TJ to release API changes that he's briefly mentioned in the Silvi's Lair thread, and the ball is also in the hands of hatchery site owners to implement changes. Honestly, I'm in the opinion that we should have the change implemented to scrolls as well, and to all hatchery sites.

 

There probably isn't much else we can do here, since a lot of it is out of the site's hands. But I'm glad and thankful that TJ has taken part in this discussion. I'll say, I'm eagerly hoping and waiting for hatchery changes suggested, but the discussions will have to be maintained with the other site owners.

[Fuzzbucket]

I know; I saw what TJ said, and I am sure he will do what he can. But it is VITAL that people remember that there are other ways. If they assume that all is fixed - well, determined bombers will find a way - remember EATW - attacked and destroyed in ways nobody had seen coming.

[Cinnamonear]

It's not my case, but some people are proud with their scroll, and it would be a shame to hide it. 

It's not fair that some people have to hide their scroll because of this problem.

[Platykwak]

For sure. My heart aches for the people who appear to be genuinely harassed by viewbombers. I do not like the feeling of being powerless against that when it's obviously against site policies too. It's why I was partaking in the threads that were linked earlier.

 

But I suggest that we wait how things progress in the coming weeks. The discussion will need to be kept awake eventually, but there will be no benefit from any pestering. I'm just saying this to discourage anyone to spam the hatchery threads until we hear more from them, and until we learn more about the future API changes.

[Fuzzbucket]

Also of course - it is well documented that coming here and posting oh woe my scroll was bombed usually results in more of the same....

 

But one thing many of us have asked for for a VERY long time is to be able to hide GROWING  things rather than adults.

 

 

Edited March 1 by Fuzzbucket

[KageSora]

I'm against hiding Thuwed and SAlt progeny pages as special cases.  I don't care if some users prize them, I don't think they deserve special treatment by the game.  ALL progeny pages should get the same treatment otherwise it shifts from "these are special because players consider them so" to "the game officially recognizes that some lineages are Better than others" and I hate that concept.

 

An alternative would be hide all growing things from progeny pages, only have them show frozen, dead, and/or adult progeny.  Or allow the option for all users to hide or show their progeny pages as they see fit--in that case if TJ or any spriters opted to make use of that and hid their pages that'd be fine by me because it wouldn't be a special exception in the programming and would be something any user could take advantage of if they wanted to.

 

An "accepting aid" verifier for eggs that are being added individually would potentially be helpful (unless it introduced a lot of extra hoops to jump throug), but also that seems to be, if I'm reading things correctly, on individual hatchsites to honor and implement rather than something DC can enforce?  If so then you're better off going and asking each individual fansite creator to change their coding to accommodate that.  If DC can enforce it that's a different matter (though be prepared for some sites to potentially close down forever because the owner doesn't have the desire or time to redo the code to accommodate the change).

[Fuzzbucket]

50 minutes ago, KageSora said:

I'm against hiding Thuwed and SAlt progeny pages as special cases.  I don't care if some users prize them, I don't think they deserve special treatment by the game.  ALL progeny pages should get the same treatment otherwise it shifts from "these are special because players consider them so" to "the game officially recognizes that some lineages are Better than others" and I hate that concept.

I'm with you there. It's annoying as I hunt salts - but it's part of the game,. I guess.

50 minutes ago, KageSora said:

 

An alternative would be hide all growing things from progeny pages, only have them show frozen, dead, and/or adult progeny.  Or allow the option for all users to hide or show their progeny pages as they see fit--in that case if TJ or any spriters opted to make use of that and hid their pages that'd be fine by me because it wouldn't be a special exception in the programming and would be something any user could take advantage of if they wanted to.

That could work, but I still like hide all growing things best. I do realise it doesn't work for the things that some people are so exercised about but - see above !

50 minutes ago, KageSora said:

An "accepting aid" verifier for eggs that are being added individually would potentially be helpful (unless it introduced a lot of extra hoops to jump throug), but also that seems to be, if I'm reading things correctly, on individual hatchsites to honor and implement rather than something DC can enforce?  If so then you're better off going and asking each individual fansite creator to change their coding to accommodate that.  If DC can enforce it that's a different matter (though be prepared for some sites to potentially close down forever because the owner doesn't have the desire or time to redo the code to accommodate the change).

I think this is the case - unless the API is actually going to be changed to "enforce" it. I like evina's system best of them all. You get to protect your own scroll.

[meeps114]

AP sAlts usually don't get hatched in the queue, and by the time they're in someone's hands, they can be safely fogged. I would be in support of thuwed eggs receiving some sort of protection from receiving views while in the AP. Thuweds are already designed as a "special lineage." (They literally have their own page.) I don't see how it would be harmful to add protection just for them growing up wild. 

[Metafarers]

I think having their be an account toggle, where users can choose to hide or show progeny pages would be an excellent idea. That puts the decision to hide in the hands of the users who made those eggs in the first place.

[KageSora]

57 minutes ago, meeps114 said:

AP sAlts usually don't get hatched in the queue, and by the time they're in someone's hands, they can be safely fogged. I would be in support of thuwed eggs receiving some sort of protection from receiving views while in the AP. Thuweds are already designed as a "special lineage." (They literally have their own page.) I don't see how it would be harmful to add protection just for them growing up wild. 

 

I mean I already dislike that they have their own special verified page to begin with.  They don't deserve any extra additional protections, IMO.  I feel that it's on users to do their own research to make sure they're not being scammed in trades.  Other lineages that have gotten extremely popular for a while over the years didn't get any special markers or pages to verify they were the original dragons of the lineage, as far as I'm aware.  So I dislike that they're treated as special as they are by the game itself.  I'd rather see that page removed entirely, tbh.  But that's off-topic.

 

That said, however, TJ has already said he's unlikely to put in place any special protections that would let players ID if an egg was in the AP or on a scroll (that was hidden with AA disabled), and if Thuweds got super special preferential treatment to block them from getting views in the AP that would be a dead giveaway on if they were in the AP or on a scroll.

[MissK.]

14 hours ago, KageSora said:

An alternative would be hide all growing things from progeny pages, only have them show frozen, dead, and/or adult progeny.  Or allow the option for all users to hide or show their progeny pages as they see fit--in that case if TJ or any spriters opted to make use of that and hid their pages that'd be fine by me because it wouldn't be a special exception in the programming and would be something any user could take advantage of if they wanted to.

 

Just spitballing here based on this: What if things only showed in progenies when they were owned by someone? As in, eggs that are stuck in AP wouldn't show up in progenies, so people can't track OR viewbomb them? It would definitely end the whole concept of waiting with bated breath for 2g salts or thuweds to drop at a certain time but it would be a way to avoid people messing with unowned eggs. I mean, I fully believe that once an egg is off your scroll you have 0 control over it, but shouldn't the same go for others who also don't own it? Currently they do have some level of control, just because the codes are visible through progenies. 

[Fuzzbucket]

8 minutes ago, MissK. said:

 

Just spitballing here based on this: What if things only showed in progenies when they were owned by someone? As in, eggs that are stuck in AP wouldn't show up in progenies, so people can't track OR viewbomb them? It would definitely end the whole concept of waiting with bated breath for 2g salts or thuweds to drop at a certain time but it would be a way to avoid people messing with unowned eggs. I mean, I fully believe that once an egg is off your scroll you have 0 control over it, but shouldn't the same go for others who also don't own it? Currently they do have some level of control, just because the codes are visible through progenies. 

 

THAT would help a lot.

[KageSora]

18 minutes ago, MissK. said:

 

Just spitballing here based on this: What if things only showed in progenies when they were owned by someone? As in, eggs that are stuck in AP wouldn't show up in progenies, so people can't track OR viewbomb them? It would definitely end the whole concept of waiting with bated breath for 2g salts or thuweds to drop at a certain time but it would be a way to avoid people messing with unowned eggs. I mean, I fully believe that once an egg is off your scroll you have 0 control over it, but shouldn't the same go for others who also don't own it? Currently they do have some level of control, just because the codes are visible through progenies. 

 

That would be a solid idea!  I think, however, it should also extend to the /view page under children.  Sure, once there's enough offspring it just has the "view children" link but until then people could stalk a dragon as long as they have the name, code, or otherwise have a link to it.  And, well, in the case of 2g Thuweds--which these topics inevitably center on--those are pretty easy to check.  Not only is there the big ol' target list of the verified page, but anybody who has access to the forums can just check old release topics for TJ's dragons.  And there are multiple of his dragons, including holiday ones, that don't yet have enough offspring to list only "view children" instead of individual codes.  Same would be for 2g SAltkin, or any other dragon somebody wanted to stalk to mess with the offspring of.  (If anything the verified list actually makes it easier to maliciously target 2g Thuweds over other dragons because you've got a handy dandy hitlist built right into the site!  That's that nice double-edge to the "they're so special they deserve their own page to prove their pedigree" thing.)

[zippuzzle]

40 minutes ago, MissK. said:

I mean, I fully believe that once an egg is off your scroll you have 0 control over it, but shouldn't the same go for others who also don't own it?

I think that this point you make is very good. People can mess with eggs that don't belong to anyone, and, while I'd rather folks couldn't mess with other people's owned eggs either, the unowned ones have no chance at protection (fogging, Warding, etc). Troublemakers (or misguided helpers) shouldn't have more influence over the eggs than everyone else.

Being picky, I apologize, but I would like if 'unowned' dragons that were released into the wild did still show on the progeny page? I don't mind folks releasing dragons, but I would be a little sad not to see some offspring anymore. I think losing access to the wild ones would be worth protecting the eggs, but, if there were a way to keep them (perhaps something about the 'release' action overriding the 'unowned' feature?), I would definitely prefer it.

I've looked for Salts/Thuweds in the AP before, and it would be harder without being able to check when they might be there, but... I kind of think adding the element of surprise back in could be fun? I've found lots of very cool dragons in the AP before just looking normally, imagine if special lines like those were part of that treasure hunt too. Or, at the very least, avid hunters could watch for TJ's Celestial to change to breeding colors. There'd be more guesswork than there is now, but stalking/hunting the AP for them wouldn't be entirely gone.

---

If hiding the Progeny codes on the dragons' pages might be more complicated, could it be changed so that, instead of listing Progeny codes under the dragons who only have a few, all dragons get a 'view children' page instead? Then, whatever coding the change would entail, it would all go to the same place? My coding knowledge is mainly super basic old html page building, but iirc containing elements to one location was a bit easier than having to program things in multiple spots.

 

[jellystualy]

I think making growing dragons unavailable on the Progeny page would be one of the "easier" fixes despite the cons (i.e., making Thuwed and SAltkin hunting difficult) in lieu of API changes possibly messing with hatcheries. I also agree that it'd make AP much more fun and exciting—I've never relied on Progeny pages personally to be able to catch something so I've always caught things in AP based on pure luck and the surprise factor, which makes it a lot more fun than sitting there for hours (potentially) to catch That One Thing, imo.

 

Of course, it wouldn't exactly stop the ~very determined viewbombers~ from doing what they're doing *somehow* ’cuz if there's a will there's a way, but if we focus on trying to stop them in every way possible then nothing will get done, either...

 

I'm mostly impartial to the ways it's handled; I'm in favor of an API change, but also in favor of the private Progeny list for growing dragons. Both sound like viable options to me even if they'd be troublesome to implement, but better extra trouble than having dragons die en masse ’cuz certain bad actors get too salty about pixels or have nothing better to do with their time.

[MissK.]

2 hours ago, KageSora said:

 

That would be a solid idea!  I think, however, it should also extend to the /view page under children. 

Yeah personally I would prefer that too, it's the same info as progeny (when there's only a few offspring) so the same rules should apply. 

 

2 hours ago, zippuzzle said:

Being picky, I apologize, but I would like if 'unowned' dragons that were released into the wild did still show on the progeny page? I don't mind folks releasing dragons, but I would be a little sad not to see some offspring anymore. I think losing access to the wild ones would be worth protecting the eggs, but, if there were a way to keep them (perhaps something about the 'release' action overriding the 'unowned' feature?), I would definitely prefer it.

Agreed, once they're wild they're either adults or frozen (no timer at least), so I don't see any reason why they wouldn't show. It could probably be arranged by only hiding growing unowned dragons. 

 

Edit: also in general, this could easily coexist with the API change. 

Edited March 2 by MissK.

[KageSora]

It could also possibly be arranged that it only hides growing dragons in general, owned or unowned.  Or at least it only shows growing dragons that are on the same scroll as the one of the parents.  Though not sure how that would work in a case of somebody releasing the parents after breeding them?