American Politics

[purpledragonclaw]

27 minutes ago, dracornithologist said:

So again, you're only focusing on third party voters rather than doing anything to convince people to vote for Biden, which you've stated is, in your view, our only defense against the fascists (the fascists Biden has encouraged so far). My repeated point has been that shaming people who are reasonably upset and misrepresenting them is an unemphatic, losing tactic, and I'd think that people who are so insistent on this being our only hope would want that feedback.

 

 

Are you intentionally misrepresenting what I'm saying? I'm talking about the rise of Nazism and fascism in America. That the GOP is nurturing and supporting. That will happen with Project 2025. Biden isn't encouraging that. 

 

Trump is already threatening another January 6th if he loses. Biden isn't encouraging that.

 

Third-party voters vote that way for such a myriad of reasons that I'm not going to say they're the sole problem. I'll say they're part of the problem, though. I just posted why the GOP is supporting West and Stein, and continue to do so for those I speak to who want to vote third-party. I'll continue to tell people the dangers of voting third-party, for the reasons I mentioned.

 

I only kept bringing up third-party voters once you mentioned West and why he is appealing to third-party voters.

 

27 minutes ago, dracornithologist said:

I didn't come up with genocide Joe; it's a trend, you might not have been aware.

 

I'm very well aware of this, along with the various nicknames for Trump. It came from the Gaza protests.

 

27 minutes ago, dracornithologist said:

I'm not here to start another argument. But I will keep commenting on focusing on third party voters, and not even focusing on reaching out to them, but blaming them, when many of them are the most marginalized people in the country, and the most impacted by US violence.

 

You are here arguing your point. You've already started the argument. You're continuing the argument. 

 

27 minutes ago, dracornithologist said:

I don't know that Genocide Trump will be worse than Genocide Joe, actually - nothing you've shared so far proves that. Joe has a higher casualty rate so far.

 

Are you just looking at Palestine or are you including the other genocides I mentioned? Because Palestine has been happening under Trump too. And Trump will end the Ukrainian conflict by handing it over to Putin. He'll hand Palestine over to Israel. Trump's said he'd do these things. Those who think Trump will be better than Biden with Israel do not realize how much Trump and Netanyahu are aligned in their vision. Not to mention North Korea. And single-issue voters who vote third-party or for Trump based on Biden's actions with regards to Israel are in for an unwelcome surprise should Trump win.

Edited Monday at 06:08 PM by purpledragonclaw

[dracornithologist]

16 minutes ago, purpledragonclaw said:

 

Are you intentionally misrepresenting what I'm saying? I'm talking about the rise of Nazism and fascism in America. That the GOP is nurturing and supporting. That will happen with Project 2025. Biden isn't encouraging that. 

 

I think we're both feeling misunderstood; I keep feeling that you are misrepresenting me and not engaging with my very real fears of the way Biden contributes to fascism, in the US (things I've sourced and talked about so far, but don't have the computer in front of me to get into: restricted voter rights, immigrant detention, criminalization of protest and dissent, abandonment of the population to COVID, putting COVID funds to indiscriminately fund fascist police). I'm sorry for not making you feel like I'm taking seriously your fear of fascism, but I'm seeing fascism on both sides, and my fears are not being taken seriously. You're not obligated to, but that's why I'm continuing the argument. 

 

20 minutes ago, purpledragonclaw said:

Third-party voters vote that way for such a myriad of reasons that I'm not going to say they're the sole problem. I'll say they're part of the problem, though. I just posted why the GOP is supporting West and Stein, and continue to do so for those I speak to who want to vote third-party. I'll continue to tell people the dangers of voting third-party, for the reasons I mentioned.

 

I only kept bringing up third-party voters once you mentioned West and why he is appealing to third-party voters.

 

So yes, your response (and several others' here) when I've brought up that people have real reasons (more than one) to not vote for Biden has been to explain how that's dangerous, and then the conversation keeps returning to shaming them and misrepresenting their principles and theories (for example, painting them as single issue voters). That's what I'm pushing back on, and what I'm trying to say I will continue to push back on - because I believe that is an ineffective way to try to get third party voters to do something different. Again, I want to acknowledge that the political involvement you've described sounds cool, and it sounds like you're doing a lot. I don't want to discount that, and you are not the sole source of the behavior I'm pushing back on.

 

But when one person, who isn't saying "vote third party" or even "I'm voting third party" brings up the real reservations people have, and asks others to pressure the party to give a good response, so that we can retain votes, that one person gets shouted down, misrepresented, and treated pretty callously (I am trying to be vulnerable and empathetic, and I've had very little understanding extended back towards me) - and not just on this forum, it's something I've seen broadly. I see that as a problem, and I'm trying to point that out.

 

31 minutes ago, purpledragonclaw said:

Are you just looking at Palestine or are you including the other genocides I mentioned? Because Palestine has been happening under Trump too. And Trump will end the Ukrainian conflict by handing it over to Putin. He'll hand Palestine over to Israel. Trump's said he'd do these things. Those who think Trump will be better than Biden with Israel do not realize how much Trump and Netanyahu are aligned in their vision. Not to mention North Korea. And single-issue voters who vote third-party or for Trump based on Biden's actions with regards to Israel are in for an unwelcome surprise should Trump win.

 

I'm taking into account that Genocide Joe has a headstart of several decades of war crimes and genocide on Genocide Trump. I'm thinking about global impact and casualties. I'm thinking about COVID deaths. That's what I'm looking at. 

 

I'm not sure how that keeps sounding like "single issue".

[purpledragonclaw]

20 minutes ago, dracornithologist said:

I'm taking into account that Genocide Joe has a headstart of several decades of war crimes and genocide on Genocide Trump. I'm thinking about global impact and casualties. I'm thinking about COVID deaths. That's what I'm looking at. 

 

 

Everyone here has repeatedly stated that everything you mentioned will continue and be worse under Trump. Trump's covid response was abhorrent. And that first article you linked? That was under Trump. The election hadn't happened yet. (I'm referencing the whistleblower complaint from the Dept. of Homeland Security.)

 

I also have a better nickname for Trump: Nazi.

 

 

21 minutes ago, dracornithologist said:

I'm not sure how that keeps sounding like "single issue".

 

Because when you've been representing why Biden is bad you keep bringing up Israel. But I know of people voting third-party because of Biden's handling of Gaza. I'm telling those people Trump will be far worse.

 

I remember a good metaphor between Democrats and Republicans: Republicans will inflict greater pain faster, and Democrats will do it by a thousand tiny cuts. Both have the same end-result. We're choosing arsenic over strychnine. 

 

All this convo reinforces is the system, as I've stated before, is rotten. That happens when money controls both parties. I also feel for @Fuzzbucket because I follow UK politics and know they're not much better. 

[Fuzzbucket]

"Decades" can't be Biden's fault; he's only been there for 4 years. But genocide is NOT the worst thing - ghastly though it is. I did not that you said you are trying to draw votes away from Trump - that can on;ly be good. But Biden really is the only option to get shot of Trump (unless the Dems put up someone else in time.) Trump as a threat to democracy is worse than anything Biden has to offer.

 

I have to say I have seen no evidence of actual fascism on Biden's side. (and BTW antifa doesn't actually exist as a "movement" - it's a meaningless term politicians use when they can't come up with another. That happens on all sides.) The DHS needs root and branch reform. I THINK Biden has even said that is needed, but I cant' source it. I would like to know who wrote that article in the Monthly Review. It reminds me very much of the language a well known political stirrer journalist in the UK uses to try and encourage third party voting - in his case, to vote for people so left wing that (while I would actually be glad of such a government at the moment, to undo some of the damage the UK has undergone) it would let the incumbents back in if enough people followed his advice; The guy is as self-interested as the people he hopes to depose. We need some consensus politics; genuine disussion and research and - doing it properly, not just trying to WIN all the time - that's true EVERYWHERE.

[dracornithologist]

12 minutes ago, purpledragonclaw said:

 

Everyone here has repeatedly stated that everything you mentioned will continue and be worse under Trump. Trump's covid response was abhorrent. And that first article you linked? That was under Trump. The election hadn't happened yet. (I'm referencing the whistleblower complaint from the Dept. of Homeland Security.)

 

I also have a better nickname for Trump: Nazi.

 

 

 

Because when you've been representing why Biden is bad you keep bringing up Israel. But I know of people voting third-party because of Biden's handling of Gaza. I'm telling those people Trump will be far worse.

 

I remember a good metaphor between Democrats and Republicans: Republicans will inflict greater pain faster, and Democrats will do it by a thousand tiny cuts. Both have the same end-result. We're choosing arsenic over strychnine. 

 

All this convo reinforces is the system, as I've stated before, is rotten. That happens when money controls both parties. I also feel for @Fuzzbucket because I follow UK politics and know they're not much better. 

 

Yes, the system is rotten. It seems counterproductive, then, to shame and blame others who are disillusioned with the system.

 

Nazi is a good word for Trump. Genocide Joe and Nazi Trump. Let me know if another occurs to you. 

 

The article I linked was a warning about what would happen during Biden's presidency, and what has happened - the described ratchet effect that has so empowered Republicans to lean towards fascism. 

 

@Fuzzbucket, I say decades because Biden has a decades long history of participating in war crimes. He is a careerist politician, and his career (sourced in the many, many links in my previous comments) is what gives Genocide Joe a headstart on Nazi Trump. 

 

The article I linked is relevant political analysis that was meant to inform and warn - a warning that didn't work, because Biden oversaw everything I listed before and that people keep ignoring ("things I've sourced and talked about so far, but don't have the computer in front of me to get into: restricted voter rights, immigrant detention, criminalization of protest and dissent, abandonment of the population to COVID, putting COVID funds to indiscriminately fund fascist police").

 

But okay, like I've said, I'm hoping my fears won't be substantiated. I'm trying to demonstrate that I understand y'all's fears, and I hope for a future where we are supporting each other through surviving Biden's impacts on the world post November instead of Nazi Trump. But even if we get there - Genocide Joe can't keep the day to day promises he's been making so far, let alone the emptier ones he's sure to continue making. Keeping in mind the ratchet effect linked above, and that Biden and the Democratic party more largely, has set the stage, legally, for Republicans to enact fascism, what happens after Biden's second term, when all other major leftist movements have been continuously shut down? It sounds like the best we're hoping for is delaying *full blown* fascism for four more years, and four more years of the most marginalized people of our society being abandoned. I really hope it's different, but again, the first step to convincing people to act politically in solidarity with you is to take their concerns seriously, not misrepresent, misunderstand, and shout them down. At least, that's how it seems to me.

 

[Fuzzbucket]

27 minutes ago, dracornithologist said:

Yes, the system is rotten. It seems counterproductive, then, to shame and blame others who are disillusioned with the system.

 

No indeed. But there comes a time when the rottenness is so awful that the crucial thing is to start with the least worst option available and then work our BUTTS off to raise that option to be better. Rinse and repeat.

[AsymDoll13]

Stop this.

 

Separation of church and state is a thing right? Or am I going insane?