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The definiton of racism is based in hatred and discrimination. Having a sexual preference for one type of race is no more covered by that definition that having a sexual preference for, say, blonds would be. (Incidently, by your logic, preferring blonds would be very racist, as it excludes all non-white people. And, by extention, gay guys could potentially be called sexist for not being attracted to women.)

 

Fetishization is, without a doubt, highly *sexist*... but by the dictionary definition of racism it can't really be called racist.

There are natural blonds among non-white peoples. That said, no, of course a preference for blonds isn't racist, nor is being sexually attracted to people with a certain shade of skin.

 

But...I would argue, that since fetishization is, by the nature of what fetishes are, absolutely a process of objectification, fetishizing, for example, a Latina based on race would fall under the heading of racism and sexism. Just because one ends up sexually aroused by the results doesn't mean the process didn't involve some hatred or intolerance for the person involved, or some less than respectful feelings for the race that has been reduced to a sexual fetish rather than something much more integral to a person's experiences. Someone who does not consent to their fetishization sure as anything isn't going to feel loved or respected by it!

 

ETA: I'll try to give some perspective here by way of another example that has nothing to do with race. Some people fetishize disability. The disabled people that are the targets of this fetishization have had to be careful not to deal with people like that because they don't look at them as humans but as sexual objects. Is that sexist? Ableist? It's hard to say exactly what it is, but it's ugly and it's not something people want to be on the wrong end of. If the targets are feeling like it is racist and sexist against them, there's a very good chance there is racism and sexism mixed up in that nasty mess.

 

(Please note I'm not trying to say anything negative about fetishes or the people who have them or the people who play around with them... Whole other story there and not really for this board, I don't think....)

Edited by Princess Artemis

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But...I would argue, that since fetishization is, by the nature of what fetishes are, absolutely a process of objectification, fetishizing, for example, a Latina based on race would fall under the heading of racism and sexism.  Just because one ends up sexually aroused by the results doesn't mean the process didn't involve some hatred or intolerance for the person involved.  Someone who does not consent to their fetishization sure as anything isn't going to feel loved or respected by it!

Yes. This. TheEvilDoer, for example, seems to be suggesting that racial fetishization is *only* sexist, and not racist. However, when the race of the individual is the direct reason (or one of the direct reasons) for the sexually objectifying behavior towards them, then it's racist as well.

 

(Pointing out again, for the record, that a speed-dating study which took place in an upscale, British-founded, liberal arts college with a highly diverse, liberal, globally-minded student body is not the same thing as a study of fetishization of race in America.)

 

There's also a HUGE tendency here to confuse "attraction" with "objectification," "fetishization," or "sexual harassment." If you find a woman prettier than other women, that's a preference. If you find a woman's race a reason to say racially offensive things to her, treat her like a prostitute, and in fact a reason to seek out situations where women of her race are objectified, that is NOT a healthy way to express a supposed "preference" or "attraction." That is racist sexism.

 

I don't know why people see sexism and racism as mutually exclusive. Sure, treating any woman like she's a sex toy is sexist. But when the things you say while treating her that way are racist, if you are treating her in a sexist fashion because of her race, then it's racist, as well -- without question!

 

For example, in the video which was linked to (and which several of the people responding to it acknowledged that they haven't watched, ahem), some of the things said are movie quotes such as "*censorkip.gifcensorkip.gif* five dolla!" "Hey, China doll! Lemme polish your porcelain?" "Baby, I love you long time!" as well as things like "Vietnamese women are the most feminine and beautiful women... I've always wanted to go over there but I haven't been able to yet." (You're suggesting traveling with the intent of "sampling" the women? The way some people travel to buy new foods or souvenirs?) "So maybe, you can come over and show me what it's like, cook for me..." Obviously sexist, but the things said are specifically racist, as well. As a more-or-less white American, none of those things would be said to me, even if a man were behaving sexist towards me.

 

Here's the link again for the curious:

Edited by Kelkelen

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gotd, I pretty well understand what you are saying, I just don't happen to agree with it in every way. Mostly, just not all of it. Again, the example of the French guy. Why would a French guy need to say anything about people calling him an African-American? Because society is seeing fit to bestow that name upon him based on the color of his skin against his will, and aren't listening to him when he says he's not African or American. If he finally gives up and says, "FINE, I'm African-American, are you happy now?!" he is not setting himself apart from anyone. Obviously he shouldn't have to worry about that, but what is he supposed to do in a world where a certain skin color is now labeled African-American even if it's worn by Frenchmen?

 

What I am suggesting is that it could be (not for certain) that some groups basically gave up and said fine, you want to call us that, we'll use it. If they do, they are not then singling themselves out! If people are forced apart, you can't point to them over there and say, look at them, they're standing apart from us, they're doing it to themselves!

 

That's why it would be worth researching whether or not a group has chosen such a term for themselves or simply adopted it because that's what everyone else was calling them. Because if a million people call something X and five call it Y, chances are it will get called X in an equitable world. And we already know the world isn't all that equitable.

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Not "might be."  IS.  That's my point; you can't say it isn't just because you personally haven't encountered it.  Obviously, other people have.  Why are you so quick to discount the personal experience of several women, just because it's something you've been lucky enough not to be exposed to? 

I'm not. Just stating that I've never encountered it.

 

Edit: How about everybody in America just calls themselves African-American? I mean the first human civilizations were in Africa, so technically, we should all have ancestors there. And South Africa is predominately white anyways.

Edited by Crisis

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QUOTE (Crisis @ Oct 23 2010, 10:43 AM)

Oh, I hate this... It's so ignorant and proves you are too... I have no problem with a black or asian president, but I woulnd't have voted for Obama because I didn't like his policies, and when I said it, people called me racist -.-

 

And that's part of it too. Race was a huge part of the presidential race. Either you voted for Obama because he was black or you didn't vote for him because he was black and no matter what reasoning you gave, people thought you voted or didn't vote for him because he was black.

 

QUOTE

How many have run?

 

 

Exactly.

 

I relalize that this is old...but Sock you made my blood boil when I read this.

 

Likining this is like saying America is sexist because we've never had a woman president or vice president.

 

I was a sophomore in high school when Obama was elected so I wasn't old enough to vote but I listened to both sides (republican and democrat) on what we needed to do to fix the country and honestly Obama intregued me with his ideas in the beginning but the more I listened the less I liked. I prefered McCain for the ideas of cutting spending at the national level and reworking problem areas rather than just come up with new programs.

 

Now pop quiz using what you just read up there make an assumption about me in the above paragraph...Got it? Good.

 

My mom and I were talking to a man who had some ideas to make the schools in my hometown better was running for school board. He was on the same page as the parents and saw the school board as a way to make his daughters school better. I told my mom I wanted her to vote for him.

 

At this same time there was a man on the school board who would not be up for re-elcetion who was only using the school board as a stepping stone for better political gain. He was closed and wouldn't listen to what parents wanted on the school board, but due to no one running (pretty much ever its rare to see a challenge for city council or school board in my town) he stayed on the board. My parents wouldn't vote for him and I agreed with this.

 

 

Now using what you know about me what are the races of the two men?

 

 

The first one was black, and the second was white.

 

I judge people like I judge who to vote for. What are you saying you're going to do? are you contradicting yourself? are you open to the people you're supposed to repesent? Do I agree with your ideals?

 

I admit that race came into play when Obama became elected because I saw people walking through my school with Obama t-shirts, but when a kid had a McCain sticker on his car he was called a raciest, and one of my teachers said she wanted Obama in office because he was black and wouldn't it be great if Hillary was VP? It would get both in office.

 

My case is Racism exists on both sides and while we're taught the black-and-white version it gets so much more complex.

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How many black people have run for the highest office in the US? I know more than Obama has for primaries, but he's the only one that made it to the the actual nation-wide election.

 

It's not racist not to vote for someone based on their skin color. Quite the opposite. Nevertheless, race was a huge part of the 2008 election simply because Obama was the first. It's unfortunate that it took so long. Race actually got to be a huge part of the Republican primaries too. Herman Cain had some personal issues which prevented him from being a good candidate, but it really set my teeth on edge how so many people opposed him because of his skin color and how so many people lambasted those who supported him as doing so only to assuage their white guilt. I remember one quote by a 'liberal' media person in particular: that he was being supported because his policies made white Republicans feel good about the place of black men. Apparently it escaped that woman's attention that their support meant they felt a black man's place was, as it is often called by Republicans, leader of the free world.

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It's not racist not to vote for someone based on their skin color. Quite the opposite.

Ummm... What?

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If you don't vote for a nominee, it's not racist just because the person happens to be [insert race here]. I think I got lost in a maze of negatives there. Obvious example: Not voting for Obama is not an example of racism. Some people didn't vote for him for racist reasons, but the simple act of not casting a vote for him isn't racist.

Edited by Princess Artemis

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If you don't vote for a nominee, it's not racist just because the person happens to be [insert race here]. I think I got lost in a maze of negatives there. Obvious example: Not voting for Obama is not an example of racism. Some people didn't vote for him for racist reasons, but the simple act of not casting a vote for him isn't racist.

My bad. I misread that. I thought you said "it's not rascist to vote for someone just because of their skin color".

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I'm the only white girl in my math class.  I am in advanced class, and it is really weird.  All my normal friends are white, so we aren't very careful about making racist comments while talking to each other.  Of course, in my math class, I have to be very careful.

...why would you want to tell racist comments in the first place? blink.gif

Edited by ylangylang

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...why would you want to tell racist comments in the first place? blink.gif

My thoughts exactly. It's... Not exactly a decent thing to do, even if nobody who'd be offended is around, IMO. :|

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...why would you want to tell racist comments in the first place? blink.gif

I third that.

 

For some reason I get along without any racist comments perfectly well, although I don't know anybody (at the moment) who could be personally offended...

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Hey guys. Guess what tumblr I now loathe with a fiery passion.

 

(Not linking it for a few reasons but) damnlayoffthetan

 

Seriously, there is no way this isn't a joke. Just... WOW GUYS WOW WTF. I know it was probably made because of 'damnlayoffthebleach' (which I normally like, but sometimes I disagree with them), so can someone please just tell me if they're a joke or...? =U Because I can't stand another minute on that tumblr.

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Obviously, I was raised in a patriotic family, so calling yourself anything before you call yourself American is odd.

 

Saw this, felt like adding that until very recently in American history, people considered themselves citizens of their own state first, the "United States" second. It didn't necessarily make them less patriotic, it just shows the shift in focus from states as individual entities to a focus on centralized government.

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Hey guys. Guess what tumblr I now loathe with a fiery passion.

 

(Not linking it for a few reasons but) damnlayoffthetan

 

Seriously, there is no way this isn't a joke. Just... WOW GUYS WOW WTF. I know it was probably made because of 'damnlayoffthebleach' (which I normally like, but sometimes I disagree with them), so can someone please just tell me if they're a joke or...? =U Because I can't stand another minute on that tumblr.

I do not think it's a joke-a troll blog, if you may.

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It does not sound like satire to me, unfortunately. If it is satire, it is awfully done.

 

/isn't half-bad at detecting satire

Edited by SockPuppet Strangler

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I do not think it's a joke-a troll blog, if you may.

I agree, it definitely looks like a troll blog.

 

 

But then again... Fandoms have some really, really scary people that... Yeesh. A lot of them are just ignorant, a lot of them are idiots, and some of them I seriously question their mental health (and wonder if maybe they might benefit from some medication or therapy--I mean the people who physically attack cosplayers because they're cosplaying a character they don't like and the person can't seem to distinguish the difference between a cosplayer and an actual character, I don't mean the people who are just incredibly stupid/mean.)

 

So, while it looks like a troll blog, it would not surprise me in the least if it was, sadly, at least partially serious.

Edited by KageSora

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Okay, got a question for Americans-

 

I was looking up stuff on Native American culture, and I saw these pictures of white people wearing Native American clothing, or something that was supposed to be Native American clothing.

 

Do you think that's okay? Why or why not?

 

Personally I don't think so, but I'd like to hear people's opinions on this.

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It really depends on what you're wearing.

 

If it's a headdress, that's a definite NO. They are sacred and supposed to be earned, one feather at a time. And they're only worn by men.

 

Dreamcatcher tattoos (or any "Native" inspired ones for that matter) I've also heard are a no. Same goes for buckskins because stereotypes and anything that claims to have a "Native" design (because they're usually not).

 

However, I've been told that if it's something you bought from a member of a tribe, it's okay.

 

I'm not Native though so I don't speak for them, I'm just repeating what I've heard them say on the matter. There's several links on this blog that might help, though.

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It really depends on what you're wearing.

 

If it's a headdress, that's a definite NO. They are sacred and supposed to be earned, one feather at a time. And they're only worn by men.

 

Dreamcatcher tattoos (or any "Native" inspired ones for that matter) I've also heard are a no. Same goes for buckskins because stereotypes and anything that claims to have a "Native" design (because they're usually not).

 

However, I've been told that if it's something you bought from a member of a tribe, it's okay.

 

I'm not Native though so I don't speak for them, I'm just repeating what I've heard them say on the matter. There's several links on this blog that might help, though.

Thanks! *Goes off to read* I dunno but fetishizing the culture of some people your ancesrors systematically killed off felt wrong to me imo.

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Yeah, it just seems like adding insult to injury to me. Not to mention it's downright disrespectful to censorkip.gif on someone's culture like that.

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Yeah, it just seems like adding insult to injury to me. Not to mention it's downright disrespectful to censorkip.gif on someone's culture like that.

Sad thing is that in other countries we've got no material from Native Americans so our portrayal of them are built on stereotypes imported from the U.S. I am trying to tell other people it is wrong

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Okay, got a question for Americans-

 

I was looking up stuff on Native American culture, and I saw these pictures of white people wearing Native American clothing, or something that was supposed to be Native American clothing.

 

Do you think that's okay? Why or why not?

 

Personally I don't think so, but I'd like to hear people's opinions on this.

To add to St. Jimmy's answer (on behalf of my girlfriend, who's First Nations, but sleeping right now), it's offensive because white people murdered First Nations people, took their land, screwed them with treaties, put them on reservations, shoved them into residential schools specifically designed to erase their 'primitive culture' by indoctrinating children (many of whom were also abducted and forced to live with white families who abused them), and now feel entitled to sacred, personal, religious and culturally significant acts and items 'because it looks cool'. A lot of those people combine said acts and items with horrible stereotypes (the alcoholic indian, the savage indian, etc.), or oversexualize/exoticize First Nations women.

 

Buying jewellery, moccasins, clothing, etc. from real First Nations artisans is okay, but the line must be drawn at sacred and culturally important symbols. Some tribes even have copyright on their name, in order to prevent corporations from abusing their identity (and for good reason).

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Okay, got a question for Americans-

 

I was looking up stuff on Native American culture, and I saw these pictures of white people wearing Native American clothing, or something that was supposed to be Native American clothing.

 

Do you think that's okay? Why or why not?

 

Personally I don't think so, but I'd like to hear people's opinions on this.

I've questioned the same. Within the Boy Scouts, there's an honor society that is based on a lot of Native American tradition. Part of the ceremonies includes actors portraying the roles of different historical characters, including an Indian chieftain, in accurate dress. They also participate in traditional Native American dance competitions. To my knowledge, no one has ever been offended by the mixed membership (white guys dancing alongside people with actual native heritage), but I could be wrong.

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