05/04/10 - State of the Cave

[Akrona]

I for one will start soliciting donations with my new sig button down there. If enough of us pitch in a few dollars, surely a business lawyer could be engaged long enough to write up some sort of agreement for future art.

 

It's just plain silly for anyone to make a game without owning the images in it, or at least without owning rights to the images in it.

 

I do not want to see any more dragons discontinued over drama.

I really don't think a lawyer is needed.

 

I would like to think that the artists here are mature enough to come to a reasonable decision.

 

Then again, I suppose I am being much too optimistic, given I've seen very little evidence that the spriters are all mature.

[Ryukotsusei]

Things like that shouldn't really be left down to maturity. Any site that uses art really should have a specific contract in place giving them rights to that art.

 

As someone earlier said, this is the only website I've been to where a policy like this is not in place.

[GIG]

They really should have told us when they will be discontinued...

[Akrona]

Things like that shouldn't really be left down to maturity. Any site that uses art really should have a specific contract in place giving them rights to that art.

 

As someone earlier said, this is the only website I've been to where a policy like this is not in place.

No, no, I mean there should definitely be a contract. I'm just saying there's no need to bring a lawyer into it.

[Ryukotsusei]

I see, misunderstanding then. In that case, agreed.

[Hawaiianbabidoll]

This is also a free website. If money was involved, I'd understand but as its not, I think an artist should be able to decide.

 

Also, having an artist bound like that may scare them off

[Sadako]

It's just that that's what lawyers do. I'm not proposing that TJ sue Lyth or anything silly like that, just that some professional contract-maker needs to make a contract about the art.

[Ryukotsusei]

This is also a free website. If money was involved, I'd understand but as its not, I think an artist should be able to decide.

 

Also, having an artist bound like that may scare them off

At the risk of comparing DC to a regular petsite, Neopets is also a free website. There are paid items, but that is not the point. They have had several contests where users submit their work, but it is ALWAYS very clearly stated that once they submit it, their work becomes property of the website.

 

Just because the website is free does not mean a contract should not be in place.

[Akrona]

It's just that that's what lawyers do. I'm not proposing that TJ sue Lyth or anything silly like that, just that some professional contract-maker needs to make a contract about the art.

Why does it need to be professional?

 

If TJ and the spriters just come to an agreement along the lines of "the art now belongs to dragon cave" or whatever, that should be sufficient. Lawyers don't need to be present for an agreement to be legally binding.

[crazyloser13]

There's no point in whining over a bunch of pixels. If the artist wanted the Frills pulled, I completely support her right to do so. Besides there'll always be new dragons to replay then.

 

They're just pixels, people. There's no point in the drama.

[TPishek]

I for one did sign up for the CB Frill project, figuring that I already have a CB Female, a 2nd-gen Male and Female, and one frozen S1 and S2, and I really wanted a CB Male to "complete" my collection as much as I could hope to... No use crying over spilled milk, I know, and I'm glad that they are still breedable with commons, but I agree that it would have been nice to have an official deadline-- "Two weeks until Frills are given Holiday-style breeding patterns" or something of the sort...

[Rpuppyluvr0203]

but...but.... they're PRETTY pixels.... D:

 

lol

[diannethegeek]

There's no point in whining over a bunch of pixels. If the artist wanted the Frills pulled, I completely support her right to do so. Besides there'll always be new dragons to replay then.

 

They're just pixels, people. There's no point in the drama.

This is what I don't understand: why isn't is possible for two (or more) people to have a calm, rational discussion about something they disagree on without it being called whining and drama?

[Hawaiianbabidoll]

At the risk of comparing DC to a regular petsite, Neopets is also a free website. There are paid items, but that is not the point. They have had several contests where users submit their work, but it is ALWAYS very clearly stated that once they submit it, their work becomes property of the website.

 

Just because the website is free does not mean a contract should not be in place.

The difference is neopet contest are for designs. Other people redraw the winning design into something that fits Neopet style, and they may even be paid to do so. DC dragons are designed and created by the artists.

[Akrona]

This is what I don't understand: why isn't is possible for two (or more) people to have a calm, rational discussion about something they disagree on without it being called whining and drama?

Because disagreement is terrible and we must all conform to the hivemind!

 

 

No but seriously, this is a phenomenon most places on the internet. People see drama in everything.

[Sadako]

Akrona, that's true, there doesn't NEED to be a lawyer, I just think that a lawyer would be the best option, especially since TJ and many of the artists are very young and I assume haven't had much experience with legal matters. I mean, like the neopets example, they have a 'Lawyerbot' who writes up all those disclaimers and whatnot about how when you submit art it becomes theirs. They got a pro to do it rather than doing it themselves first off because they're a huge corporation, but also because that's the best way to make a contract.

 

Edit: by the way this isn't 'BAWW Lyth is mean and I want frills back'. It's 'BAWW I want TJ to set this game up so it works properly'.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Sadako

[TPishek]

Speaking of which, if they ARE going to breed like Holidays, can we at least instate a "Frill Day" on iunno, Lyth's birthday or something, on which Frill eggs CAN be obtained? D:

[Akrona]

The difference is neopet contest are for designs. Other people redraw the winning design into something that fits Neopet style, and they may even be paid to do so. DC dragons are designed and created by the artists.

Nope. This is incorrect.

 

Neopets doesn't do design contests, for one thing. Additionally, this disclaimer is present whenever anyone submits anything to the art gallery, etc.

 

It is there so that the creator cannot sue Neopets for using their work if they change their mind about putting it on the site later.

Why do they do this? Well, if you take a look at what's happened with the Frills, you'll see why. When unrelated people are given the power to take down things on a site at their whim, it causes serious problems.

[Amazon_warrior]

If not a contract, I wonder if there should be some sort of agreement that states that a spriter may not pull their work without first having spoken to TJ and thouroughly discussed the implications of such an action and the motivations behind it. Possibly with an option for TJ to veto the pull if he deems the given reasons unsatisfactory. It's not a contract, but it might help?

[Rpuppyluvr0203]

Speaking of which, if they ARE going to breed like Holidays, can we at least instate a "Frill Day" on iunno, Lyth's birthday or something, on which Frill eggs CAN be obtained? D:

This.

 

Now, THIS would be AWESOMESAUCE!!!!! That idea sounds goooddd!!!

[Ryukotsusei]

The difference is neopet contest are for designs. Other people redraw the winning design into something that fits Neopet style, and they may even be paid to do so.  DC dragons are designed and created by the artists.

This is not always true. I no longer use the site, but when I did there were so-called 'random contests' where users would submit all kinds of different stuff. Anything they submitted immediately became property of the website. They did this so people wouldn't then try to complain because they didn't get paid for the art/photo/whatever it was.

 

Although, yes, they do also have paid employees who draw things for them, but that's not what I'm talking about.

 

EDIT: @ Amazon...

 

Unfortunately, even something that would also require a contract of some kind I believe. Without any kind of policy, the artists still retain the right to the artwork. I'm not a lawyer, but I think unless SOMETHING is written and agreed to that TJ owns property to the art, the artists do have full rights to pull the artwork if they want, meaning TJ would not be able to simply veto it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Ryukotsusei

[_Z_]

To repeat, I never gave a deadline. When I was contacted by Lyth, this is what she said:

<Lythiaren> Please retire the Frill from the cave.

<Lythiaren> Render their entire population infertile.

 

Which I did, in that order.

 

It's unfortunate, but there's not much I can do to help if you were given false information.

TJ has already explained what took place, If Lyth wishes to discuss it with him, I'm sure she will. I assume TJ is quite capable of deciding how he deals with the artists and they with him.

 

Back on topic please.

[Dragonhatchling]

Wait I thought they went at the end of june?

The creator did say that when they posted a notice about it.

 

Now they apparently changed their mind thinking no one at all would care (assumption and bolded for stand out) but some of us do. But frills are gone and done, what are we going to do about it? nothing, we can't do much to get them back, it was the creator's choice and this is what they chose. So advice, be happy with what was chosen and be glad we got to meet the frills while they were around.

 

*is sad the frills are gone, was her favorite dragon even though she didn't get a chance to get many of them*

[Corteo]

If TJ and the spriters just come to an agreement along the lines of "the art now belongs to dragon cave" or whatever, that should be sufficient. Lawyers don't need to be present for an agreement to be legally binding.

 

No, no, no, hell no, no.

 

My art will always be mine and I will not give up the rights to it. That said, if I was paid that would be different, but that's not happening. I would not be against an agreement as to pulling a sprite. Like another sprite would have to be made to replace it. However, I will not give up my rights to my work. I make my art for me. The cave gets to benefit from it. But it was still made by me, for me.

 

----

 

I really do love your spring skin TJ. <3

[Hawaiianbabidoll]

Nope. This is incorrect.

 

Neopets doesn't do design contests, for one thing. Additionally, this disclaimer is present whenever anyone submits anything to the art gallery, etc.

 

It is there so that the creator cannot sue Neopets for using their work if they change their mind about putting it on the site later.

Why do they do this? Well, if you take a look at what's happened with the Frills, you'll see why. When unrelated people are given the power to take down things on a site at their whim, it causes serious problems.

I know for a fact at least two neopets were from a design contest. One being the little bat dino like thingy. (Dunno names. Not a neopet user)

 

I see your point about this frill phenomenon but I feel like an entire species of dragon over a piece of art based on something that is most likely copyrighted is in a different league. The design should always belong to the original creator(s).

 

And on a side note, I believe this wasn't a whim, but rather Lyth was seriously offended by people.