Battling

[zamirathe]

A quick reply and I will be more thorough later.

 

1) Battling would have to be optional, just like trading, gifting, lineages, and personal challenges are all optional.

 

2) It should have no effect on the main game play what so ever. Maybe a dragon has "battle" stats, which are just bragging rights. No BSA, no effect on eggs, hatchlings, or raising times.

 

3) There should be a limit on battling. 1 battle per dragon per day at the maximum.

 

4) I would see it kind of like in the book Heart's Blood, except without the gambling and culling part. We don't know if dragons in the wild fight to the death over territory, but they probably would as many animals do. No dragons would be killed, only injured so they couldn't battle again for so many days. (I would personally make it so dragons could battle for at least a day after breeding too for the reason they would be too interested in watching eggs rather than fighting.)

 

5) It could, with some coding effort, be made so that it was off-site per say. You could click a link on your scroll to go to Arena, say, and see all of your dragons' battle stats and such there.

 

In any case, I have presents to get wrapped. I'll elaborate more later.

[~!~]

I still can't understand what all this "omg it's too much like teh pokemanz we can't have it here!!1!!1!" Pokemon is an excellent game.

 

Also, I don't know about you guys, but I imagine my dragons fight each other for sport on a regular basis. I figure if a combat system for DC were to be implemented, it would be like the dragons sparring for sport, the way humans would fence or box.

 

EDIT: Perhaps if hording were implemented, dragons could surrender a part of their hoard if they are defeated in battle. Even so, last I heard of the hoarding feature, the items in the dragon's hoard wouldn't serve any purpose.

Edited December 23, 2009 by ~!~

[DragonNighthowler]

You know, that very same argument was used against having a safe trading system here. If I remember right, the majority of people decided that it didn't matter if other game sites had safe trading, because they also wanted it here. So I understand what TJ's saying about the fact that opinions here change over time and who knows what we'll support next year that we opposed in this one.

 

Out of curiosity, to those who support it, could you give a little bit of a clearer picture on what the battle system might entail? I don't know that I'd want my dragons out fighting, necessarily, but I'd be interested in hearing how it would work, if there would be anything to gain from it or if it would just be for fun, or if certain new stats would go with it.

 

~Sarah~

I'm more focused in the fact that it would take a HUGE amount of resources, which would lag the page for those of us with slower connections. Also, I see no purpose to it, and I am, ethically, against forcing animals to fight for human amusement. Being them pixel art makes it no less wrong, in my opinion.

 

As for the fact on collecting. Well, I don't see it as wrong. It's more similar to how I envision an aquarium, and since I like aquariums, I'm not against that.

[Dianacat777]

OMGZ U ADVOCATE DRAGON FIGHTING

 

Seriously, though, I don't see what this could possibly add to DC, not to mention it's a dead horse that's been beaten ten thousand times over. Even if that's not a legit reason to close the topic, DC currently doesn't have anything to do with fighting. One of the reasons I love DC is because there isn't much I'm compelled to do.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Dianacat777

[ParticleSoup]

*whispers* could we go ahead and close this please?

 

its already extremely obvious that nobody supports this. im sure the OP could do without four pages of 'no'.

 

*runs away*

Edited December 23, 2009 by ParticleSoup

[skauble]

I'm more focused in the fact that it would take a HUGE amount of resources, which would lag the page for those of us with slower connections.

 

Except we actually have no idea of 1) the resources it would take, 2) the resources available, 3) if other resources might be available to us. That's generally where TJ has to step in and tell us that the suggestion is not possible. And he might very well do so, bit since, to this point, all he's said is:

 

"What Not To Suggest" is there more so people can know what suggestions have been repeatedly rejected. It should not be used as a basis for denying suggestions; public opinion shifts, and things that were previously disliked by the majority may be favored now. So how about we let the users decide rather than instantly opposing the suggestion for an invalid reason.

 

For the record, if a 3rd party developer is interested in this, it's definitely possible to do via the API, especially with the API updates I've been working on.

 

Then I don't see why we should outright dismiss it on the basis of resources. There doesn't seem to be a point in not at least exploring the issue and looking at systems so that TJ can at least tell us if they, as a whole wouldn't work, or if just parts of them would have to be rethought.

 

 

Also, I see no purpose to it, and I am, ethically, against forcing animals to fight for human amusement. Being them pixel art makes it no less wrong, in my opinion.

 

But someone has already pointed out that it could be the dragons themselves that randomly decide to battle as opposed to people commanding them to do so.

 

 

As for the fact on collecting. Well, I don't see it as wrong. It's more similar to how I envision an aquarium, and since I like aquariums, I'm not against that.

 

Honestly, I have to admit that I know people who won't own aquariums and won't go to places like Sea World specifically because they think it's wrong to contain the fish in that way simply because they're neat to look at. Are they right or wrong? I can't say, but I figure that those who are against it won't own an aquarium and those that aren't against it are welcome to have one.

 

And that's the thing with this system - most of the suggestions is that it be voluntary and that people are absolutely able to opt out. That way the people who want to give it a go can do so and the people that don't won't have to bother with it at all. Just like people now don't have to bother with lineage projects or trading or scroll completion or any other aspects of the game. It's just another feature that people can use. And just because you wouldn't use it and I might never use it, doesn't mean that no one here would.

 

Personally, I'd just like to see where the idea is going before we dismiss it.

 

~Sarah~

[zamirathe]

As for the fact on collecting. Well, I don't see it as wrong. It's more similar to how I envision an aquarium, and since I like aquariums, I'm not against that.

Um, have you heard of Betas? Last aquarium I had, I put in 5 goldfish and 1 beta. Within about 2 weeks all of my goldfish were dead, the Beta killed them all. Yes, I learned my lesson never to put a Beta in with other fish, but still, just because the fish WE put in aquariums doesn't normally fight each other doesn't mean they never will.

[JaziandCo]

Just a few qualms I have with supporting a battle system:

 

-Defeated dragons. Are they dead? If so, pfft, count me out.

 

-Dragons that don't fight. Guardians, Whites, Mints. What happens to them?

 

-The "control" issue. If (most) dragons are supposed to be intelligent enough to speak telepathically, why would they follow a human's commands? They'd know how to take care of themselves.

 

-What are the perks? Kudos and battle stats? Items =O? Ties in with hoarding =O?

 

-Ethics. Dogfighting, bullbaiting, things like those. Cruel sports, and a lot of people who've had experience with those will back away from nearly any sort of animalxanimal fighting.

[Umbreon97]

Please no. :|

I hate battle systems in any kind of site like this at all...the only game it fits is POKEMON. And last time I checked, dragons aren't pokeymen. It doesn't even fit Neopets, I never even bother with "level" and "hit points" and all that stupidity.

This game is good as is, in some ways it was better a long time ago.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Umbreon97

[skauble]

-Defeated dragons. Are they dead? If so, pfft, count me out.

I agree. I don't think that dragons should die from this.

 

 

-Dragons that don't fight. Guardians, Whites, Mints. What happens to them?

I think that any system developed should definitely not work against a breed. There are certainly breeds that would not be prone to fighting, so I don't think that they should have the option available.

 

 

-The "control" issue. If (most) dragons are supposed to be intelligent enough to speak telepathically, why would they follow a human's commands? They'd know how to take care of themselves.

There has been the suggestion made that the dragons actually initiate the battle. Also, since it's doesn't have to be a fight to the death or anything, it could just be skirmishes. As someone pointed out, people fight like that for fun and entertainment.

 

 

-What are the perks? Kudos and battle stats? Items =O? Ties in with hoarding =O?

Personally, if something like this were to happen I would prefer to see it encapsulated rather than spilling over to affect parts of the game like growing time or breeding availability. I see battle stats as akin to a nice lineage. It's something you put time and effort into, but at the end of the day it's just info on the page. It doesn't actually make your dragons do anything more than they could before.

 

 

-Ethics. Dogfighting, bullbaiting, things like those. Cruel sports, and a lot of people who've had experience with those will back away from nearly any sort of animalxanimal fighting.

I have to say that given that you just pointed out that dragons are intelligent then, were we to worry about the ethics of fighting (especially since it could be dragon initiated), we should probably also worry about things like - stealing dragons from their home, leaving them and walking away/leashing them to a tree when we know that their parents won't take them back, forcing them to breed with other dragons and then giving away their children, etc. Because, from that perspective, we do a lot of not so nice things. My neglected experiments alone should probably get me beaten with a stick. lol

 

~Sarah~

Edited December 23, 2009 by skauble

[~!~]

Dragons that don't fight. Guardians, Whites, Mints. What happens to them?

Of all the arguments people have made in this thread, this is the easiest to remedy; let the owner of the dragon decide whether or not it is combative. We already allow the owner as much free reign as is humanly possible with descriptions, so it ought to be the owner's call, if such a system were to be implemented, whether or not each dragon on his scroll would fight or not.

 

The "control" issue. If (most) dragons are supposed to be intelligent enough to speak telepathically, why would they follow a human's commands? They'd know how to take care of themselves.

We can make dragons breed on command (most of the time), so I figure this wouldn't be all that different.

 

Ethics. Dogfighting, bullbaiting, things like those. Cruel sports, and a lot of people who've had experience with those will back away from nearly any sort of animalxanimal fighting.

I feel the same way on this front as I do about inbreeding. I would assume that if the dragons had a problem with it, it wouldn't be coded. I envision this more as a boxing or fencing type of combat between dragons, something they do for sport, rather than something like bullbaiting. I figure a human's role in dragon combat would be a referee/personal trainer type figure.

[DragonNighthowler]

Um, have you heard of Betas?  Last aquarium I had, I put in 5 goldfish and 1 beta.  Within about 2 weeks all of my goldfish were dead, the Beta killed them all.  Yes, I learned my lesson never to put a Beta in with other fish, but still, just because the fish WE put in aquariums doesn't normally fight each other doesn't mean they never will.

Have you heard of research?

 

 

This was my aquarium (now dismantled). Couple of pterophylum scalare, a couple of ramirezzi, and a small group of coridora paletaus.

 

You can keep a stable aquarium, no effort, even with aggressive species. It simply takes a bit of patience, and research.

BTW, I have had Bettas. I've bred Bettas, in a different aquarium, obviously.

 

Honestly, I have to admit that I know people who won't own aquariums and won't go to places like Sea World specifically because they think it's wrong to contain the fish in that way simply because they're neat to look at. Are they right or wrong? I can't say, but I figure that those who are against it won't own an aquarium and those that aren't against it are welcome to have one.

 

And that's the thing with this system - most of the suggestions is that it be voluntary and that people are absolutely able to opt out. That way the people who want to give it a go can do so and the people that don't won't have to bother with it at all. Just like people now don't have to bother with lineage projects or trading or scroll completion or any other aspects of the game. It's just another feature that people can use. And just because you wouldn't use it and I might never use it, doesn't mean that no one here would.

 

Personally, I'd just like to see where the idea is going before we dismiss it.

 

I can understand, and respect people who dislike aquariums, and zoos. But honestly, the cruelty involved in dog fights has nothing to do with the cruelty involved in a good, responsible, aquarium owner, or large facility, where fish are tried to keep in the most similar ecosystem possible, to their own.

 

Ethics. Dogfighting, bullbaiting, things like those. Cruel sports, and a lot of people who've had experience with those will back away from nearly any sort of animalxanimal fighting.

 

As an occasional volunteer at a shelter, the levels of cruelty are sometimes unbelievable.

Also, as an inhabitant of the Kingdom of Spain, our "national sport" doesn't place Spain in a good position.

Edited December 23, 2009 by DragonNighthowler

[skauble]

As an occasional volunteer at a shelter, the levels of cruelty are sometimes unbelievable.

Also, as an inhabitant of the Kingdom of Spain, our "national sport" doesn't place Spain in a good position.

Except that 1) the system could be made so that the dragons choose to spar, just like people choose to box, fence, practice things like karate, etc. 2) The fact is that, again, if we impose realistic ethics on the game, then it would be unbelievably cruel to steal an egg from it's parents, decide that you no longer want it, and then knowing that it's parents won't take it back you simply leave it on the ground or leashed to a tree to die.

 

~Sarah~

[JaziandCo]

There has been the suggestion made that the dragons actually initiate the battle. Also, since it's doesn't have to be a fight to the death or anything, it could just be skirmishes. As someone pointed out, people fight like that for fun and entertainment.

True, but they often do not have someone telling them HOW to fight unless they're still in training, like martial arts training or such. So unless it was coded a certain way, liiiike... your level 5 black against a level 1 magi, well the black is stronger so it has a higher chance of winning, but it's still a random pick. Unless it's coded like that, it seems strange, just in my mind. Like it was strange to have a pokemon trainer control a.... MEWTWO, or something. Mewtwo spoke, with more intelligence than Ash. Being able to control something smarter than you seems strange.

 

I have to say that given that you just pointed out that dragons are intelligent then, were we to worry about the ethics of fighting (especially since it could be dragon initiated), we should probably also worry about things like - stealing dragons from their home, leaving them and walking away/leashing them to a tree when we know that their parents won't take them back, forcing them to breed with other dragons and then giving away their children, etc. Because, from that perspective, we do a lot of not so nice things. My neglected experiments alone should probably get me beaten with a stick. lol

Well, I left that there because no matter what, it still LOOKS like an animal. And neos and ochres at the very least are hardly more intelligent than a wolf, so they DO count as a base animal sport. Stealing could be rephrased as adopting, considering it seems the cave dragons don't really care that you're taking them. Most of the other things still offers a choice to the dragon itself, except breeding to abandon. And yea, neglected experiments probably would I was giving that one as an example, because since I see a lot of pokemon references popping up, I thought I might as well show a crudfest people had about pokemon when it first came out too.

 

 

Of all the arguments people have made in this thread, this is the easiest to remedy; let the owner of the dragon decide whether or not it is combative. We already allow the owner as much free reign as is humanly possible with descriptions, so it ought to be the owner's call, if such a system were to be implemented, whether or not each dragon on his scroll would fight or not.

But some, according to both artists and descriptions are NOT at ALL able to fight. Like whites, and mints. There's a reason there are no warrior mint and white descriptions. PF13 has said that guardians are for *protecting*, not for fighting (even though that shield would be cool to use). So, then it *can't* be the owner's choice.

 

We can make dragons breed on command (most of the time), so I figure this wouldn't be all that different.

Good point. The only fault I find with that logic is that the dragons are also apparently free to refuse.

 

I feel the same way on this front as I do about inbreeding. I would assume that if the dragons had a problem with it, it wouldn't be coded. I envision this more as a boxing or fencing type of combat between dragons, something they do for sport, rather than something like bullbaiting. I figure a human's role in dragon combat would be a referee/personal trainer type figure.

Well that should be enough to settle the more animal-rights advocates of the group (not taking just a stab at you, DragonNightHowler. I hate blood sports too), since dragons are supposed to have at least human intelligence and all. That explanation works =3

 

 

 

 

 

 

@DragonNightHowler

I can see where you're going with this. I know we've chatted enough times about the cruelties of dog fighting to know that we're on the same page <3 Thus, I'd say... for people who are going "pfft, how bad can it be?", look up pictures of dog fights, and see if that changes your mind about animalxanimal fighting. However, DNH (can I call you that?) if the dragons have human intellect, and it's no more than a boxing match to them, would you be okay with it?

[~!~]

Darn this new no-quote-pyramid stuff.

 

But some, according to both artists and descriptions are NOT at ALL able to fight. Like whites, and mints. There's a reason there are no warrior mint and white descriptions. PF13 has said that guardians are for *protecting*, not for fighting (even though that shield would be cool to use). So, then it *can't* be the owner's choice.

Well then, if that's the case, I'd put code in place to prevent it.

 

Good point. The only fault I find with that logic is that the dragons are also apparently free to refuse.

*shrug* I guess the dragons would be free to refuse to fight as well.

Edited December 23, 2009 by ~!~

[joiner123]

Well actually I was thinking instead of sensless violence, since dragons in mythical legends are old and wise, wouldn't fight. They could play maybe some ancient card game? (I know, it's a strange idea but it's a start.) And dragons don't have to die. It could maybe be that the winner dragon just gets pride? So the people could let the dragons communicate by playing the card games with other dragons (in mythical legends dragons are old, wise, and they talk). Also, playing could be an option. Maybe it would go something like this: something saying play card game. Then click the card game and you type the user you would like to play against. The user gets the request and if they accept it then the dragons can play against eachother in the card game....?

[DragonNighthowler]

@DragonNightHowler

I can see where you're going with this. I know we've chatted enough times about the cruelties of dog fighting to know that we're on the same page <3 Thus, I'd say... for people who are going "pfft, how bad can it be?", look up pictures of dog fights, and see if that changes your mind about animalxanimal fighting. However, DNH (can I call you that?) if the dragons have human intellect, and it's no more than a boxing match to them, would you be okay with it?

You can call me that, if you wish ^^.

 

Well, I think I would be ok.

[joiner123]

Well actually I was thinking instead of sensless violence, since dragons in mythical legends are old and wise, wouldn't fight. They could play maybe some ancient card game? (I know, it's a strange idea but it's a start.) And dragons don't have to die. It could maybe be that the winner dragon just gets pride? So the people could let the dragons communicate by playing the card games with other dragons (in mythical legends dragons are old, wise, and they talk). Also, playing could be an option. Maybe it would go something like this: something saying play card game. Then click the card game and you type the user you would like to play against. The user gets the request and if they accept it then the dragons can play against eachother in the card game....?

What do you guys think of this idea? ^^^

[~!~]

Well actually I was thinking instead of sensless violence, since dragons in mythical legends are old and wise, wouldn't fight. They could play maybe some ancient card game? (I know, it's a strange idea but it's a start.) And dragons don't have to die. It could maybe be that the winner dragon just gets pride? So the people could let the dragons communicate by playing the card games with other dragons (in mythical legends dragons are old, wise, and they talk). Also, playing could be an option. Maybe it would go something like this: something saying play card game. Then click the card game and you type the user you would like to play against. The user gets the request and if they accept it then the dragons can play against eachother in the card game....?

Somehow I get the impression the petsite-haters will come down on this like a ton of bricks.

[skauble]

True, but they often do not have someone telling them HOW to fight unless they're still in training, like martial arts training or such. So unless it was coded a certain way, liiiike... your level 5 black against a level 1 magi, well the black is stronger so it has a higher chance of winning, but it's still a random pick. Unless it's coded like that, it seems strange, just in my mind. Like it was strange to have a pokemon trainer control a.... MEWTWO, or something. Mewtwo spoke, with more intelligence than Ash. Being able to control something smarter than you seems strange.

What I think might be workable is (as I believe someone mentioned earlier) one of your dragons gets restless and wants to battle. I think that it's not unreasonable that dragons would keep their fighting skills sharp because, realistically, the blacks have warrior skills and fighting magic because there is something out there to fight. Likewise, the guardians protect because there are threats to the dragons. The threats to the dragons could very likely come from rogue and wild dragons as opposed to dragons that are on other people's scrolls. If that's true, and the dragons on people's scrolls are their own clans, but not necessarily enemies of each other, then I don't think that there would be a problem with them having non-lethal battles with each other.

 

But some, according to both artists and descriptions are NOT at ALL able to fight. Like whites, and mints. There's a reason there are no warrior mint and white descriptions. PF13 has said that guardians are for *protecting*, not for fighting (even though that shield would be cool to use). So, then it *can't* be the owner's choice.

I agree with this, especially since a description that describes a white dragon as a warrior can be rejected because of the breeds description. I think that their are plenty of breeds that are either given to fighting or which don't seem to indicate a preference one way or the other that people could chose and some just wouldn't have the option kind of like a vampire can't bite a split.

 

 

Good point. The only fault I find with that logic is that the dragons are also apparently free to refuse.

This is definitely true. However, I'm free to refuse to breed with people too, but if someone kept coming up to me and telling me to breed with random guys it would be, at the very least, all kinds of creepy.

 

~Sarah~

[JaziandCo]

Somehow I get the impression the petsite-haters will come down on this like a ton of bricks.

That also seems like it'd be more complicated coding than the current idea, and not efficient enough to be worth it. I don't know anything about programming languages outside of simple javascript though. Where's Lyth when you need her?

 

What I think might be workable is (as I believe someone mentioned earlier) one of your dragons gets restless and wants to battle. I think that it's not unreasonable that dragons would keep their fighting skills sharp because, realistically, the blacks have warrior skills and fighting magic because there is something out there to fight. Likewise, the guardians protect because there are threats to the dragons. The threats to the dragons could very likely come from rogue and wild dragons as opposed to dragons that are on other people's scrolls. If that's true, and the dragons on people's scrolls are their own clans, but not necessarily enemies of each other, then I don't think that there would be a problem with them having non-lethal battles with each other.

Buuuuut. How do you tell something more intelligent than you what to do? "OH HEY DRAGON GO KICK THAT OTHER ONE BETWEEN THE WINGS"... I can imagine the response to be something equivalent to a middle finger. That's my question.

 

This is definitely true. However, I'm free to refuse to breed with people too, but if someone kept coming up to me and telling me to breed with random guys it would be, at the very least, all kinds of creepy.

Arranged marriages =O Except it was (and I believe still is) hard to refuse those.

Edited December 23, 2009 by JaziandCo

[DragonNighthowler]

Buuuuut. How do you tell something more intelligent than you what to do? "OH HEY DRAGON GO KICK THAT OTHER ONE BETWEEN THE WINGS"... I can imagine the response to be something equivalent to a middle finger. That's my question.

Hahaha .

 

That was a good one!

[Aviatus]

*headdesk*

 

First humans telling dragons to battle, then mythical card games

 

Pokemon, now Yu-Gi-oh

 

Dear God

 

Look, I really just don't get the point of this, coding and ethics and likleyhood aside, what would this ADD to the COLLECTING GAME of dragcave?

 

[JaziandCo]

Look, I really just don't get the point of this, coding and ethics and likleyhood aside, what would this ADD to the COLLECTING GAME of dragcave?

How do descriptions add to said game? =3

[Aviatus]

Personalizing the collecting X3

 

Personally I'm not even a big fan of descriptions