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IF you completely ignore the fact that the writing is technical trash, and IF you ignore the sorry plot, and IF you ignore the fact that she turned a mythical nightmarish creature into a romantic sparkly THING, and IF you ignore the fact that it reads like a preteen girl's diary with paranormal beasts added in, and IF you ignore the fact that this obsessive devotion such that a girl would try to kill herself for "love" presents a disturbing picture to preteen girls that are reading this and will royally censorkip.gif up our coming generation, and IF you ignore the fact that it's fluff literature that will be forgotten like pop music and clothing fads in the next couple decades... I guess they could be considered good books. Oh wait... that's everything isn't it?

Edited by philpot123

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IF you completely ignore the fact that the writing is technical trash, and IF you ignore the sorry plot, and IF you ignore the fact that she turned a mythical nightmarish creature into a romantic sparkly THING, and IF you ignore the fact that it reads like a preteen girl's diary with paranormal beasts added in, and IF you ignore the fact that this obsessive devotion such that a girl would try to kill herself for "love" presents a disturbing picture to preteen girls that are reading this and will royally censorkip.gif up our coming generation, and IF you ignore the fact that it's fluff literature that will be forgotten like pop music and clothing fads in the next couple decades... I guess they could be considered good books. Oh wait... that's everything isn't it?

LOL!!!!

 

Well, you did forget characterization. xd.png

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Funnily enough, we just watched an episode of To Catch A Predator in my Criminology lecture... Why do I see a version with Jacob, the Ikkle Chestburster and some policemen with silver handcuffs? o3o

 

(And if someone says Jacob's a werewolf that's not allergic to silver I will actually vomit in pure rage.)

He's not even a werewolf proper- fourth book revealed that they're a race of shapeshifters that just happen to take wolf form.

 

So no. No silver allergy.

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At least she had the decency to name them differently. Even if it was at the very, very end, and I still wonder why she did it.

 

To think that my fictional supernatural creature, which I decided to name differently because, while similar to werewolves, they are not exactly the same, are more werewolvish than her things.

 

One thing that I refuse to not have in any werewolf story is the full moon link. I think there is something romantic in the whole full moon triggering the change fact.

A werewolf that does not have such a weakness (as well as silver), is not much of a werewolf to me.

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He's not even a werewolf proper- fourth book revealed that they're a race of shapeshifters that just happen to take wolf form.

 

So no. No silver allergy.

I thought he was called a werwolf in the books? Hrmm.

 

So these silver bullets won't do much, then?

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I thought he was called a werwolf in the books? Hrmm.

 

So these silver bullets won't do much, then?

Eeyup. He's called a werewolf.

 

As to the bullet thing, I don't know. Silver, iron, gold, copper- bullet is bullet, and kills most things dead when aimed at the head. And he doesn't have the traditional weaknesses, but neither the traditional strengths- namely, you don't need silver to hurt! biggrin.gif

 

 

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I thought he was called a werwolf in the books? Hrmm.

 

So these silver bullets won't do much, then?

He is called a werewolf in the books, but at the fourth book, I can't remember exactly when but I believe somewhere in the end, someone said werewolves are vicious, uncontrolable creatures and that Jacob and the pack are a bunch of shapeshifters who just happened to, randomly, all take the shape of a huge wolf.

Edited by DragonNighthowler

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Wunderbar. What's next- "They're not vampires, they're just creatures who happen to be a lot like vampires and are called vampires throughout quite a few of my books, now stop being mean or I'll cry"?

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Yeah, I guess something around those lines will be it. xd.png

 

Tends to happen when you step on a lore that has hundreds of much more capable writers and a fanbase of millions of people ready to rip your throat open if they feel insulted.

 

I frankly didn't mind the werewolves all that much. I play Werewolf the Apocalypse, and such werewolves, while weak to silver, are along the lines of Meyer's. Deeply spiritual beings linked to nature, and Gaia and so on, destined to protect her from evil. It's a more indoamerican view, I guess.

White Wolf's werewolves are far more brutal and dangerous tho, and while Full Moon doesn't trigger the change, it does affect the werewolf player.

 

Anyways, I didn't mind them much, they were not as insulting as sparkly, super awesome vampires, but I didn't really thought much about them. I was blinded by super sparklething!

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(And if someone says Jacob's a werewolf that's not allergic to silver I will actually vomit in pure rage.)

No. Silver just makes them too shiny and pretty for mortal eyes rolleyes.gif.

 

(I suppose I should note that that is in all ways sarcasm and in no ways actually said in any books/movies/interview/etc.)

 

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No. Silver just makes them too shiny and pretty for mortal eyes rolleyes.gif.

 

(I suppose I should note that that is in all ways sarcasm and in no ways actually said in any books/movies/interview/etc.)

xd.png

 

I would expect something along those lines if Meyer actually had some simpathy for werewolves, but I believe she sees them as little more than shaggy mutts on steroids.

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I'm of the opinion that there is room for innovation within a genre and "species" or whatever. A good example is Rowling's portrayal of elves. I'm not well read enough to know whether it's completely original, and knowing the genre is probably isn't, but it was a perfectly good, somewhat "original" or at least different than normal deviation from the "Tolkien" style elf that is so pervasive currently. Polar opposite really. Tall, beautiful, strong, elegant vs. tiny, ugly, rather annoying but somewhat endearing. I like that. But when you have an author like Meyer who comes in and says "I think I'll make a vampire. But I'll make it my own. Yes, it will be far different from the normal vampires. Oh, it will have all the same bloodthirsty traits, but I'll change a few little things. Like... SPARKLES!!" -.- come on. If you're going to stick to the stereotype, don't push the limits like that. That's not a vampire. It's a sparkly creature with vampire-like tendencies that someone decided to call a vampire. This probably doesn't make much sense, but that's one thing that seriously bugs me about her xd.png

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House elves =/= elves, in my opinion.

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House elves =/= elves, in my opinion.

That's the thing though, she took what most people think of as "elves" and made it different. It wasn't a stereotype with flaws like Meyer's "vampires."

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Hrmm, they're more like what I think of as brownies but I get your point.

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Hrmm, they're more like what I think of as brownies but I get your point.

Just in response to this convo, I thought you guys might find this interesting:

 

"In the 20th century, due in part to Hollywood accounts of Santa's elves running his workshops at the North Pole, the elf has become associated with a diminutive creature, possessed of little magic, and with almost nothing of its original qualities remaining, save for its skill in making beautiful objects. Yet the old traditions portray elves as very different creatures. Among the Norse, Teutonic, and Scandinavian peoples, elves are tall, extremely beautiful and very powerful. J.R.R. Tolkien, in his The Lord of the Rings trilogy, did something to set the record straight, although he borrowed aspects from a number of cultures to create the almost angelic elves who appear in his books. Shakespeare also perceived elves as human-like in appearance, as we may see from the descriptions of a beautiful Oberon and Titania in A Midsummer Night's Dream. But Shakespeare, who knew a great deal about English folklore and traditions, made their fairy subjects diminutive, thus combining two strands of belief.

 

[...]

 

In more recent times, there has been a general diminution of the elves. In Scandinavia, they have become associated with the Hulder, a small race with more kinship to dwarves or brownies. They have also acquired a tradition of being mischievousness and spiteful. Anglo-Saxon traditions mention two races of elves, the Liosalfa (Light Elves) and Svartalfa (Dark Elves), each of which possess the attributes one would expect from their names. In Germanic mythology, the Foest Elves are called Schrat, while Danish folklore has the Elen or Elle-Folk, who have an unfriendly relationship with humanity. In Sweden, the elves are known as Elvor, Grove Folk."

 

The Element Encyclopedia of Magical Creatures, John and Caitlin Mattthews, 2005

 

For those interested, I also typed up the parts it has on vampires, werewolves, and shapeshifters. :3

 

Vampires

 

"Vampires are the living corpses of the undead who, instead of giving back their bodies to the earth, fire, air, or water and decomposing in the usual way, are animated by their own or another spirit to drink blood or draw energy, goodness or virtue from the living. Those who ahve been bitten and thus infected by a vampire become vampires themselves when they are dead. Vampires are thus predatory upon the life-energy of the living and have a vested interest in maintaining their own half-life by such methods. In European lore, vampires return to their coffins at daybreak, when the cockerel crows or when the church bells ring. The strongest vampire craze struck Hungary in the 18th century, and middle and southern Europe from Poland to Albania and Greece still harbor these traditions.

Vampirism is found in many parts of the world, including China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Africa and the New World. From ancient times onwards, there are vampires in different forms from the Babylonian Utukku, the classical Lamia and the Empusa of Hecate down to the gypsy Mullo, a dead spirit that becomes vampiric on the living and sucks blood when death customs have been given scant respect, such as keeping rather than burning th deceased's possessions - a custom which allows no resting place for the dead to return.

Not all vampires are human in form. In Japanese folklore, in the story of the 'Cat of Nabeshima', the Prince Hizen had a mistress who was really a vampire cat. She put a spell on the prince's guards and entered his bedroom each night sucking out some of his vital energy. As the prince's condition worsened and it looked as though he would die, a brave soldier called Ito Soda vowed to stay awake, resorting to the terrible expedient of piercing his own flesh with a dagger in order to stay wakeful. The mere sight of his vigilant eyes redered the vampire cat powerless and she stayed away from the prince, who recovered.

When the Spanish conquistadors invaded South America in the 16th century and began to explore its legends and fauna, they discovered both the bat-god Camazotz who lived in the underground caverns and sucked the blood of the living, as well as the real vampire bat, which does in fact suck the blood of animals - though rarely that of humans. The word vampire did not come into the English language until the 18th century after various well-attested cases of human vampires had been reported in Europe. In cryptozoological studies, vampirism seems to be the central feature of the Chupacabra or the Goat Sucker that preys upon the blood of livestock. Some vampires have the ability to prey on those whom they form partnerships without actually taking their life: in this respect, the behave like Incubi or Succubi, visiting women or men at night.

The standard methods of discovering vampires are the sudden death of livestock, the blood-emptied condition of the living or the strangely blood-engorged bodies of corpses whose graves have been opened or examined. A number of methods of destroying vampires have been employed, including decapitation, burning, exorcism and the good old stake through the heat, which is supposed to strike them dead or render them unable to function. The wearing of religions emblems such as crosses, the stuffing of one's nostrils with garlic and other remedies are also supposed to ward off their attentions, but these methods are not foolproof, especially if the vampire is of another faith to yours (see Roman Polanski's film Dance of the Vampires for the famous scene in which the myth of the protecting crucifix is exposed as untrue). More recent research as associated vampirism with the historical figure of the 14th-century Transylvanian prince Vlad the Impaler, whose bloodthirsty retribution involved the staking of enemies who were laterally transfixed upon upon a pole set upright in the ground and left to die.

Vampires in fiction and drama are very much a growth industry among those who like to take their stories with a pint of blood. Since the publications of Bram Stoker's novel Dracula in 1897, vampires have swarmed into fiction and on to the screen, creating many memorable films and cementing the vampiric cliches from the silent film Nosferatu down to TV series such as Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel."

 

Werewolves

 

"The name werewolf comes from the addition of the Old English wer'man' and word 'wolf'. A werewolf is a human being who has the ability to turn into a wolf, although the term can also be used generically to describe a human who turns into another kind of animal under conditions of sorcery or enchantment. Werewolves act entirely like a wolf while they are in that shape, and will prey upon any human or other animal.

The ability or misfortune to become a werewolf was conveyed in different ways: by curse, enchantment, sleeping in the light of a full moon, being conceived under a new moon, eating wolf meat, drinking where wolves have drunken or putting on a wolfskin. The werewolf effect takes place in the hours of darkness and subjects conceal their wolf skin and hide their activities during the day, completing the Jekyll and Hyde persona of werewolf existence. Those who are injured as werewolves may be easily discovered the next day since the human subject will have a wound in the same place, thus rousing suspicion of those who had not already noticed the telltale signs of werewolfdom - the hairy brows that meet in the middle, the variegated eyes, the long canine teeth and generally vulpine appearance. Once a werewolf, there are very few remedies to help you achieve a cure. Being shot with a silver bullet or arrowhead will probably put you out of your misery the quickest, although some werewolves pray to St. Hubert.

The Greek God, Zeus, was said to have caused Lycaeon, the founder of Arcadia, to turn into a wolf after having unwisely sacrificed his own child to Zeus Lycaeus or the Vulpine Zeus. This unpleasant behavior so disgusted the Olympian god that he determined to wipe out humanity by sending the Great Flood from which only Deucalian and Pyrrha escaped. The wolf-cult of Zeus Lycaeus was said to have still been practiced as late as the 1st century AD, when a member of the Antaeus family told Pliny the Elder that he had been a Lycanthrope for nine years, having drawn lots with the rest of his clan to partake in these secret rites. The fear of werewolves reached its height in 16th-century France where many thousands of people were executed after being accused of witchcraft and lycanthropy.

Lycanthropy is the medical term for when the supposed victim believes himself to be a wolf, behaving in gait and appetite like one who is indeed transformed. In historical record, many warriors, including the famous Germanic and Scandinavian berserkers call Ulfhednar, who perpared themselves for battle in magical ways to receive the spirit of their totem animal or spirit within them, may possibly have led to some reports of lycanthropy. Buchard of Worms, writing in AD 1000, speaks of werewolves, and the wearing of a wolfskin in medieval Scandinavia was believed to be the means of becoming a werewolf. It is known that the Pits of Alba (now Scotland) went into battle naked so as to show and perhaps activate the woad-tattoos of clan totems upon their bodies; their fearless manner of throwing themselves upon their enemies unprotected by any armor made a distinct impression upon their foes.

Were-bears, -boars, -crocodiles, -dogs, -foxes, -hares, - hyenas, -jaguars, -leopards and -tigers are also found in different parts of the world. Werewolves have been popular at the cinema from the time of the black and white classic The Wolfman (starring Lon Chaney Jr.) to Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban where Harry's teacher Professor Remus Lupin turns into a werewolf. The 2003 film Underworld dealt with the war that rages between werewolves and vampires, thus giving vampire-watchers and lycanthropes alike a double dose of enjoyment."

 

Shapeshifters

 

"The ability to shapeshift was part of many of the cultures that depended upon hunting to survive. This primal ability is still seen among the Bushman of Southern Africa, who not only follow in the tracks of animal pray but run like the animal they are chasing and make cries similar to it. Around the fire at night, before and after a hunt, they take the form of prey animals, imitating and embodying them. This behavior has been part of the human tradition from the earliest times, when the sympathy between hunter and hunted was crucial for survival. Many traditions of disguising and masking derive from such pursuits. In Irish lore, the hunter's ability to blend into the landscape as an animal became a form of invisibility. Special shapeshifting spells of invocation called Fith-Fath were employed by Gaelic hunters in order to enable the hunt. Such pagan spells were even used by St. Patrick who, when he was being pursued by enemies, invoked a Fith-Fath to change himself and his followers into the shape of a deer in order to put scouts off the scent of their human prey. The remnants of this spell are left int he fairytale giant's cry of 'Fee, Fi, Fo, Fum'.

In world myth, the ability to shiftshape between animal and human forms is usually found in extraordinary individuals. Foremost of those in Irish myth is Tuan Mac Carill.

 

Tuan Mac Carill was called upon by Finnen of Moville, the teacher of the great saint, Columba, to relate his lineage. Tuan came with the first colonists, the Patholonians, survivors of the Great Flood. When the Partholonians died out, Tuan passed from old age into the form of a stag and saw the coming of the Nemedians. When they died out, Tuan passed into the shape of a boar. In this form, he saw the coming of the Fir Bolg until the coming of the Tuatha de Danaan who overcame them, when he finally took the form of a hawk. Finally, he became a salmon and in this form was caught and served as a meal to the queen of Ulster. When he was later reborn of her womb, he retained the memories of all he had lived through in previous forms.

 

A similar tradition is found in the case of the Hindu god Vishnu who is seen to shift shape through the many ages of the world. Each of his appearances is called an avatar of 'vehicle of manifestation' and he passes into these shapes whenever the wolrd is threatened, for he is the preserving god of Hinduism who has appeared in the shapes of Rama, Krishna and Gautama Buddha. His earlier avatars include Matsya the fish, Kurma the tortoise, Varaha the board, Nr-Simha the man-lion as well as Vamana the dwarf. This ability to shapeshift could be said to be in the nature of reincarnation. Although some of the Vishnu's transformations are purposeful acts for rescue, taken as a whole they are means by which the history of the world is preserved and extended. The final avatar, Kalki, will govern the Age of Strife that is still to come, punish evildoers, reward the virtuous, destroy the world and so create a completely new cycle of life.

Some shapeshifters do not wish to be caught and will use their skills to avoid entering into contracts or relationships. We see this in the myth of Proteus, the first man of Greek myth or, as he is also known, Nereus, the Old Man of the Sea, who when challenged takes the successive forms of a fish-tailed being, a lion, a stag and a snake. he was challenged by Aristaeus, the son of Apollo, who successfully out-wrestled him. Even within this myth, the whole memory of the world is seen to be embodied in one being whose very cells have come down via the ladder of DNA to their present pattern. In this way, the ability to take animal shape remains magically within each of us."

 

(Please excuse any mistakes. It was a lot to type in one sitting, lol. Also excuse any switching between British-English and American-English spelling or grammar. I only noticed the book was using British-English spellings near the beginning of the werewolf pages and then tried to keep it what I had already been doing, but I'm not sure I succeeded. Bold words are other entries the book includes, I believe.)

 

If anyone wants to use any of that to dissect Twilight vamps and wolves/shifters.

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That is awesome, Sock, thank you! smile.gif

 

I really thought the real elves were the tiny ones seen in HP. It seems I was mistaken, I didn't know the real elves came from nord tales and folklore.

 

Great info, really. It was very interesting to read.

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Thank you so much Socky for telling how elves were believed to be like. I hate it when people think of elves like the Keebler elves, which i think are really gnomes.

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My favourite kind of 'elves' are the Discworld version (written by Terry Pratchett). I also prefer their version of werewolves and the idea of 'Yennorks' (werewolves that can not change shape and are trapped in either human or wolf shaped bodies).

 

The best vampires are the Hellsing kind, obviously o3o

 

I never really saw the house elves in HP as 'elves', but something that was just given the name. Like how ladybirds (ladybugs to you Americans) aren't birds.

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http://thehairpin.com/2011/11/our-bella-ourselves

 

I am just going to leave this here, and see what all y'all have to say about it before I make any comment.

I'm not sure what to say. the author's comparison of Bella's pregnancy and her's are somewhat similar and her thoughts on Bella's passiveness are valid and she seems to think of the twilight series as a way to actually give teenagers more insight to the world

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http://thehairpin.com/2011/11/our-bella-ourselves

 

I am just going to leave this here, and see what all y'all have to say about it before I make any comment.

The Twilight series challenges what I would call the "Buffy Summers Maxim": that teen heroines be physically empowered, oftentimes at the expense of emotional clarity. Bella Swan diverges from many of our more recent teenaged female heroines.

 

Yes, by being a piece of cardboard. Sure, sure, I'll give the woman that it's nice to see something different but she seems to be forgetting that all of these other teenage heroines DEVELOP as characters, whereas Bella doesn't.

 

Also, as I just noticed, that paragraph I quoted needs to go to the Department of Redundancy Department for "female heroines."

 

a masterful deployment of metaphor that somehow nails the simultaneous horror and beauty of gestation and birth

 

What is this, I don't even.

 

The really interesting conversations start to happen when we stop circling the wagons against "bad examples" and "passivity" and start exploring not only what we want our heroines to be like, but why.

 

I want my heroines to be HEROINES. I want Buffy, who has all this life drama piled on top of slaying. I want the snarky Juno dealing with her teenage pregnancy. I want freaking Herculeah Jones and Nancy Drew. I want characters who grow, who develop, who aren't a cardboard cut-out waiting for the reader to insert themselves into.

 

 

And I won't say anything else because that sporking covers anything else I could even come up with.

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I don't understand the people who read the books and claim, or except, them to be any deeper than a two-inch puddle. xd.png

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Bella Swan, by contrast, is a much more honest (though cringe-inducing) representation of adolescence. She doesn't know who she is or what she wants. She's clumsy, obtuse, and aggravating in her helplessness. She is also entirely internal, almost alienatingly so

 

I find this insulting as a young woman fresh out of teenage. I'm 21.

 

Before I go on, I'd like to point out that yes, this happens during teenage years-hell, I've had my share of bad relationships myself. But first, I was 14 at the time said relationship happened- Bella's 17, and the gap between the level of mental maturity between 14 and 17 is, I'd say, immense. When I was 17, I looked back on the said relationship with horror. It's called growing up! It's insulting because the author of the article just looks over that maturing process and treats teenage girls as if they don't have the brains to go through the process. Second, Bella never had a relationship before-but then did she not have any female friends? That seems very un-typical of a teenage girl although the article states that "Bella is how we were when we were teenagers"-teenage girls, stereotypically and in real life, form cliques or at least a small group of friends and talk about other people's relationships. It's a vital part of how you mature from a social clutz to a well developed person. Even if you don't have any friends (as Bella seems to) you get to hear about so-and-so's-breakup some way or another. You LEARN from them. You try not to repeat those mistakes. There's a very real stigma against girls whose breakups were horrible-yes, people comfort you but your story makes for a round of happy chitchat during lunchtime. And friends share advice about whom to date, what to look out for, etc etc. I can't believe that during her 17 years of life Bella never had that process, nor can I believe that the writer of the article overlooked that fact. Lastly-teenage girls, no matter what you may think of your personal teenage years, are NOT helpless creatures who are dazed and confused. We are not damsels in distress-quite the opposite in fact. You'll notice this if you spend an hour watching a power play between different girls-all the moves are calculated, judged, weighed and finally carried out. This is also inherent when you see a girl talking with a boy that she likes/dislikes. We are capable of more than sitting around waiting for a guy to ask me to go out, and through very subtle means as well.

 

I could go on and rant, but that'd be too long.

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