BSA Revert

[Shadowdrake]

If this were implemented to turn things into growing hatchies, that's bypassing the time limit and maybe even the scroll limit for growing things. That's not an improvement! Imagine raising a bunch of ghansers or other uncommons early, then reverting them all just to fog-death the hatchies on Halloween. This BSA is getting around some restriction either way, it's nonsense to say it's worse for frozen or unfrozen.

[KageSora]

1 hour ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

Genuine answer - Getting adults includes, theoretically at least, some sort of effort taken. The whole 'raise a dragon' idea. You get an adult because you put in the effort. Yes you can trade for a low-timed hatchie, yes you could argue that tossing a few eggs into a hatchery isn't exactly 'effort', but still. In theory, it takes effort to get an adult. It doesn't necessarily take any effort at all to get a frozen hatchling, especially if you trade for the hatchling or catch it as a hatchie in the AP. Maybe more important game-wise, it doesn't take *time*. Making an army of adults takes time, both to growing-things limits and the time needed to raise them. Making an army of frozens *without* a limit could be nearly instantaneous (as someone who has frozen over a dozen hatchies in one day....). 

 

Snarky answer- Because limits were put in place for a reason, obviously TJ didn't think that amassing a huge amount of frozens at once was a good idea.

Right, and NONE of that makes any sense as a reason why somebody should face a penalty in terms of "well, Revert would be a bad idea because it bypasses the freeze limit"

 

Because from what I can see, you'd be putting in the same amount of time/effort as somebody who amassed an army of adults, so why should Revert be restricted the way Freeze is?  It makes zero sense to argue "there are freeze limits to stop people from amassing dragons too fast, therefore Revert would break that" when you're beholden to the same time/effort constraints to get an army of frozens using Revert as you would be to get an army of adults.

 

That's what I'm trying to figure out--why, specifically, somebody who wants to amass an army of Frozen dragons via Revert should be limited and penalized when somebody who wants to amass that same army but as adults should not when both players have taken the time and effort to grow their dragons to adulthood.

 

What about Revert as suggested, specifically, is so bad or so game breaking that it means doing equal work should result in unequal restrictions?

 

It genuinely doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Personally, it's not a feature I would use much if at all--but I'm trying to understand the argument against it bypassing the scroll limits because nothing I've seen makes any logical sense to me.

 

If anything, the idea that Revert is too game-breaking sounds to me like an argument to limit how many dragons a person can obtain in general--force catching/breeding/trading dragons to be tied to a limit that works the same as freeze to prevent players from putting in more effort to amass dragons more quickly (such as incuhatching or trading for low-time hatchies) to more rapidly grow their scrolls.

Edited August 30, 2022 by KageSora

[MissK.]

10 minutes ago, KageSora said:

Right, and NONE of that makes any sense as a reason why somebody should face a penalty in terms of "well, Revert would be a bad idea because it bypasses the freeze limit"

 

Because from what I can see, you'd be putting in the same amount of time/effort as somebody who amassed an army of adults, so why should Revert be restricted the way Freeze is?  It makes zero sense to argue "there are freeze limits to stop people from amassing dragons too fast, therefore Revert would break that" when you're beholden to the same time/effort constraints to get an army of frozens using Revert as you would be to get an army of adults.

 

That's what I'm trying to figure out--why, specifically, somebody who wants to amass an army of Frozen dragons via Revert should be limited and penalized when somebody who wants to amass that same army but as adults should not when both players have taken the time and effort to grow their dragons to adulthood.

 

What about Revert as suggested, specifically, is so bad or so game breaking that it means doing equal work should result in unequal restrictions?

 

It genuinely doesn't make any sense to me.

 

Personally, it's not a feature I would use much if at all--but I'm trying to understand the argument against it bypassing the scroll limits because nothing I've seen makes any logical sense to me.

 

(Sorry I know you're not responding to me but) I do see what you mean regarding adults. It would indeed take the same effort/time, + using the action. However, revert is also described to work on s2 hatchlings, so then you'd get an insta-frozen s1 without using freeze slots. So perhaps at least have it work only on already frozen hatchlings and adults...? To me it still throws me off a bit that it would be basically an extension to an existing (and limited) action, but at least it wouldn't be game-breaking or so. 

 

Also now that I think about it, things like bite/EQ take up a kill slot when they result in death (which I think is stupid and would like it changed but that's how it is right now). So for the sake of consistency, using revert should also take up a freeze slot when there's one available, right?

Edited August 30, 2022 by MissK.

[KageSora]

2 hours ago, MissK. said:

 

(Sorry I know you're not responding to me but) I do see what you mean regarding adults. It would indeed take the same effort/time, + using the action. However, revert is also described to work on s2 hatchlings, so then you'd get an insta-frozen s1 without using freeze slots. So perhaps at least have it work only on already frozen hatchlings and adults...? To me it still throws me off a bit that it would be basically an extension to an existing (and limited) action, but at least it wouldn't be game-breaking or so. 

 

Ah, I'd missed the part where it could be used on a growing s2 hatchling to get to a frozen s1--but that's a pretty simple fix.  Either it's only viable on frozen/adult dragons as you suggested, or it eats a freeze if used on an unfrozen s2.

 

There's really no reason to treat it as getting around limits if somebody is reverting an already frozen s2 to s1 (since they already used their freeze) or an adult to s2 (since they already grew the dragon).

[CaptainHarrie]

 

5 hours ago, MissK. said:

However, revert is also described to work on s2 hatchlings, so then you'd get an insta-frozen s1 without using freeze slots.

The OP states that this action would only be useable on adult dragons or frozen hatchlings, not on living hatchlings! So the s2 would have to be frozen already, anyway. So no free frozen s1 hatchling.

[MissK.]

10 minutes ago, CaptainHarrie said:

 

The OP states that this action would only be useable on adult dragons or frozen hatchlings, not on living hatchlings! So the s2 would have to be frozen already, anyway. So no free frozen s1 hatchling.

 

Oh I see that it was added at the bottom in a later edit, good. As long as people have to either grow a dragon to adulthood or use up a freeze slot, then revert probably wouldn't allow for an overuse of freezes. In my opinion it would still be important to consider limitations on adults with breeding and BSAs, but that might be a more subjective matter.

[Fuzzbucket]

As I say - as long as it doesn't bypass anything I am "meh" about this. Except the bit to use it to remove a dragon from the breeding pool - I wouldn't want to be able to do that ONLY by making it a hatchie; If I've raised an adult, I'd want it to stay that way. What I would prefer - for those for whom this is an issue - would be a separate BSA "Make unbreedable" which could be reverted with another BSA. I wouldn't actually use it myself, but for that side of the suggestion, I think it would be a better option.

 

So, for anyone interested:

 

[DragonLady86]

On 8/30/2022 at 12:22 AM, HeatherMarie said:

 

Genuine answer - Getting adults includes, theoretically at least, some sort of effort taken. The whole 'raise a dragon' idea. You get an adult because you put in the effort. Yes you can trade for a low-timed hatchie, yes you could argue that tossing a few eggs into a hatchery isn't exactly 'effort', but still. In theory, it takes effort to get an adult. It doesn't necessarily take any effort at all to get a frozen hatchling, especially if you trade for the hatchling or catch it as a hatchie in the AP. Maybe more important game-wise, it doesn't take *time*. Making an army of adults takes time, both to growing-things limits and the time needed to raise them. Making an army of frozens *without* a limit could be nearly instantaneous (as someone who has frozen over a dozen hatchies in one day....). 

 

Snarky answer- Because limits were put in place for a reason, obviously TJ didn't think that amassing a huge amount of frozens at once was a good idea.

 

More on-topic: I don't care why the freeze limits exist, I personally don't *like* having freeze limits, and I don't care about the 'intended spirit' of a rule. If a rule/limit is in place, a mechanic that effectively gets around that rule/limit should not be introduced, period. If we were to be allowed to skirt the freeze limits with a BSA, why not just do away with the limit completely? It makes no sense to me. Personally I'd totally support a 'do away with freeze limits!' suggestion. But not a suggestion to just outright cheat the limits that are in place. 

 

Personally I'd think the best way to have some sort of 'revert' would be to *not* have it auto-freeze, but be scroll-locked (so no trading/gifting/etc, but it would still be a growing hatchling). It seems like that would satisfy the needs here (remove from breeding pool, didn't have time to freeze, etc) without getting around any limits. 

Personally, it takes more effort to amass frozens because of the limit. The limit which is designed to keep people from filling thier scroll faster.  So it isn't getting around the rule given the extra time was already spent.

 

And being frozen makes it scroll-bound without need of extra coding. Having it not be frozen has the same potential problem revived dead hatchlings face. If it wasn't frozen it's timer is expired and it will die again. Revival glitches the timer but unless it's changed recently, you have a very short time do anything with a hatchling that revives instead of zombfiying before it dies permanently.  

 

What does not being frozen accomplish exactly? You just going to let it grow up again? You have get it views again? It takes up a growing space you previously had available? We get 10,000 posts about "why can't I trade my hatchie?" in Help? Please explain what benefits there are to not being frozen

[Ruffledfeathers]

I think it just makes sense to freeze it automatically, but just have it tied to the freeze limit? Or have a drawback: fail chance (probs unpopular), super long cool downs. 

 

I guess the only possible utility of reverting a Hatch without freezing in mind may be just having it time out for Zombification, otherwise I am not sure.
 

Unless one day we could influence ungendered hatchlings/fringe cases like the Blue versus Yellow Electrics where hatchies have different forms which can be changed at hatch only.

 

Idk but I think if we could use this on Frozens in of itself, I would love it too as I have some dupes frozen which would be more useful as genderless. However, I have some Adults which would be better as Frozens so happy for that too!

[Skadi]

An easy solution is the BSA has a low cooldown, but can only be used if freeze slots are available. It automatically freezes and absorbs the freeze slot. Otherwise, no objections here.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Skadi

[Ripple_Tiger]

I personally very much object to the idea of this using a freeze slot, as this uses the bsa and the time it took the dragon to grow up as the trade off to freeze it as a hatchling instead of using a freeze slot

[KageSora]

13 hours ago, DragonLady86 said:

Please explain what benefits there are to not being frozen

 

The big benefit would be that it's essentially reversible if you ended up using it on the wrong dragon--just let it grow back up.  Not really sure if there's any other benefits, though.  Auto-freeze makes more sense to me, personally.

 

Actually, considering that it already had the stats needed to get to adulthood I would think the bigger issue would be preventing it from growing right back up immediately.  It would probably require a buffer of "it can't grow back up for X amount of time" in addition to the adding of a small amount of time to the growing timer to prevent it from just being dead from lack of time.  It'd probably be more complex than it's worth to factor in how to make it work as a still-growing thing.

 

Auto-freeze would likely be the simplest way to implement it, tbh.

 

Re: the whole "people will just ask a ton why they can't trade their hatchling" thing:  I can totally imagine people not reading the text and asking a billion times over in Help "Why did my dragon auto-freeze, I wanted to trade it/abandon it/I used it on the wrong dragon how do I undo it".  I think it's safe to say that no matter what form this took, there's the potential for people to ask a lot of questions about it because they didn't read the details.

[Erra]

Support 

I have simmilar situations like other players when my hatchies become adult becouse i dont have time or forgot to freeze. I hope that this BSA will be also avilable to revert s2 hatchie to s1 hatchie (permababies xD),  This really help fullfill my frezzlings colection.

 

EDIT
Mayby name "Regression" wil be better?

Edited October 6, 2022 by Erra

[sorenna]

Oh, man, I can't tell you HOW many times I have wished for an action that would turn an adult back into a hatchling for, like, an hour.  Or even 10 minutes. 

 

The number of times something has accidentally grown up on my scoll and broken a trade link before I could accept an offer, or grown up while I was in the middle of trying to abandon it to the AP, or grown up because I looked away for ten minutes while waiting for it to gender before freezing it, is rather a lot.  *sheepish*  If I could just switch it back for a short period, I'd be ecstatic! 

 

I'd guess there would have to be some limitations on it - it can't have bred, obviously, and there'd surely need to be some kind of time limit - maybe it can only be "re-hatchlinged" within a week of growing up?  Presumably it would take up a hatchling slot, so it can't be done if you're scroll-locked (you'd get a 'this action isn't available because you have reached your scroll limit' explanation beneath the greyed-out "Revert" action until you have space again).   I don't care, I'd work with any limits. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by sorenna