BSA Revert

[The_unknown_tiger]

So I think a variant of the Aeon Wyvern which reverts a dragon to a previous stage would be really helpful for people who had a dragon they wanted to freeze but it grew up before they could. Also it can help remove a dragon from your breeding pool that you never plan to breed. 
 

- Dragons will be untradeable just like any full grown dragon, and frozen hatchlings.

 

-It will only roll back the dragon one stage at a time. So a full grown dragon reverted to a S2 hatchling (This will freeze it at that stage). Then a one week cool done before you can do it again on that dragon. If you do it on a frozen hatchling at stage 2 it will revert to a S1 frozen hatchling. And that's it no reverting back into eggs (this is to keep it in line with how the system of freezing currently works.)

 

I would find this really helpful to remove a lot of adult dragons I never plan to breed but I still have to sort through when I’m breeding my pairs. 

Also helpful for people who didn't have a chance to freeze their hatchling before it grew up.
 

I believe the freezing limit exist so people don’t abuse it to grow their collection number super fast by skipping the growing up time, but this will only work on dragons that are full grown and/ or hatchlings that were already frozen. So there is no attempt to skip a timer. It will also ensure the same amount of "work" (arguably more so) is put into raising the dragon as it will still have to grow to a full grown dragon before being used AND you have to breed the dragon with the BSA revert to use the action. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by The_unknown_tiger

[Murkydepths]

If used on a grown dragon, would it revert to a frozen s2? Or would it be trade-able again - because that'd have huge impacts on trading.

 

I am in favour of this though, really annoying having a messy grow up when you wanted to freeze. I think it the BSA also had an automatic freeze (still using your freeze slots) it couldn't be abused. 

[The_unknown_tiger]

@Murkydepths

Yes grown dragons will be reverted to S2, If doing in on a S2 hatchling it will revert to S1. 

 

It will still be scroll locked just like normal adult dragon/ frozen hatchling

[HeatherMarie]

17 hours ago, The_unknown_tiger said:

It will still be scroll locked just like normal adult dragon/ frozen hatchling

 

Adult dragons aren't scroll locked though. You can't abandon or trade them, that's true, but you *can* release them to the wilderness. Doesn't affect the suggestion but just wanted to point that out.

 

My first thought was that this could be abused with regards to holiday dragons, but if they aren't tradeable that won't be a worry. I am curious why the no-egg restriction, if we can revert the same dragon multiple times (from adult to s2, then from s2 to s1) why can't we revert it to an egg? That seems like an arbitrary rule, is there some reasoning behind it? It would be nice to be able to revert back to an egg if you forgot to Influence, for instance. 

[CaptainHarrie]

9 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

Adult dragons aren't scroll locked though. You can't abandon or trade them, that's true, but you *can* release them to the wilderness.

To be fair by that definition neither are frozen hatchlings, as they can also be released into the wilderness.

 

9 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

I am curious why the no-egg restriction, if we can revert the same dragon multiple times (from adult to s2, then from s2 to s1) why can't we revert it to an egg? That seems like an arbitrary rule, is there some reasoning behind it? It would be nice to be able to revert back to an egg if you forgot to Influence, for instance. 

The action limitations described by the OP of only working on adults and frozen hatchlings would mean that you would be reverting a frozen hatchling into an egg, but freezing a dragon is a permanent and irreversible action. Being able to revert a frozen hatchling into an egg would allow you to undo freezing, changing the mechanic drastically.

 

Whether or not this should allow for undoing freezing would be an entirely different suggestion to what OP is describing, which is allowing you to turn an adult into a frozen hatchling and a frozen S2 into a frozen S1.

 

OP's suggestion I feel doesn't do anything drastic to change the game balance, but allows people a little more control over the stage of their frozen hatchlings, so I'm in support. Being able to undo hatchling freezing I'm not so sure about, it feels like that should be in another thread and discussed separately.

[Fuzzbucket]

35 minutes ago, CaptainHarrie said:

The action limitations described by the OP of only working on adults and frozen hatchlings would mean that you would be reverting a frozen hatchling into an egg, but freezing a dragon is a permanent and irreversible action. Being able to revert a frozen hatchling into an egg would allow you to undo freezing, changing the mechanic drastically.

Not quite the same as simply turning it back to being the hatchling it was before it was frozen - which has been discussed elsewhere. This to me would be even more drastic than that.

I can't honestly see much point to this; it seems to me just something that came about because someone didn't notice in time that their hatchie needed freezing... they are at each stage for long enough that it really shouldn't be a problem.

 

35 minutes ago, CaptainHarrie said:

 

Whether or not this should allow for undoing freezing would be an entirely different suggestion to what OP is describing, which is allowing you to turn an adult into a frozen hatchling and a frozen S2 into a frozen S1.

 

OP's suggestion I feel doesn't do anything drastic to change the game balance, but allows people a little more control over the stage of their frozen hatchlings, so I'm in support. Being able to undo hatchling freezing I'm not so sure about, it feels like that should be in another thread and discussed separately.

 

Oh believe me it has been discussed at GREAT length.

 

[DragonLady86]

I have more than a few that have grown up on me over the years and going from an adult back to a frozen hatchling would be awesome. This mechanism also technically already exists because TJs release dragons often grow up then get reverted. So it would simply be allowing the player base to have access to the ability.  It does need to go from adult to frozen though; keeps it on the same scroll without needing new mechanics for that and doesn't require more views/space again.

 

I assume the can't revert to eggs is simply because we don't have frozen eggs at the moment. If that were to change this could always be expanded to include them. 

 

Unfreezeing is a separate thing and I've put my support in for that on those threads.

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, DragonLady86 said:

going from an adult back to a frozen hatchling would be awesome.

 

The suggestion is to go back to a living hatchling.

[CaptainHarrie]

27 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

The suggestion is to go back to a living hatchling.

I'm not sure why you think this? Nowhere does OP talk about reverting a stage so the dragon can... Grow up again?

 

Note this part in particular:

On 8/26/2022 at 5:47 AM, The_unknown_tiger said:

I believe the freezing limit exist so people don’t abuse it to grow their collection number super fast by skipping the growing up time, but this will only work on dragons that are full grown and/ or hatchlings that were already frozen. So there is no attempt to skip a timer. 

OP is saying reverting an adult to a frozen hatchling would not cost a freeze charge/contribute to the freezing limit, but that it's okay because it's not skipping the growth timer. This argument doesn't make sense if you're going to have to spend a freeze charge to freeze the hatchling after you use the BSA anyway.

 

Also if OP was talking about reverting dragons to let them grow up again, well that is just not very helpful, a dragons gender is set when it hatches so you're not getting a chance to reroll anything making it a useless BSA unless you're freezing the hatchling because that's the only new avenue that gets opened.

 

I can't really see myself using this very much, but I don't really see any harm in people using a BSA charge to go back a stage on a frozen hatchling and I'm sure it would be useful for people who are a little busy and only log in once or twice a week. So I don't personally see any reason to oppose it, I'm like eh why not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I will say this though: it can only be used on dragons that do not have any descendants, otherwise it will look bizarre on lineages.

[Fuzzbucket]

On 8/26/2022 at 12:47 AM, The_unknown_tiger said:

-It will only roll back the dragon one stage at a time. So a full grown dragon reverted return to being a hatching with wings. Then a one week cool done before you can do it again on that dragon. If you do it on a hatchling at stage 2 it will revert to a wingless hatchling. And thats it no reverting back into eggs.

 

From the OP. That doesn't say a frozen hatchling.

[CaptainHarrie]

9 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

From the OP. That doesn't say a frozen hatchling.

 

Look at the first reply asking "will it revert to a frozen s2 or be tradeable?" And OP said "Yes it'd revert to a S2, no it won't be tradeable just like any normal adult or frozen hatchling".

 

At the end of the day the only one who can actually clarify this one is @The_unknown_tiger , but based on the context of everything I'm inclined to believe OP means a frozen hatchling. It's a hatchling that cannot be traded, was an adult but the owner didn't want an adult, and OP discussed how this shouldn't cost a freeze charge which only makes sense if the hatchling in question is frozen in the process.

 

And if I'm wrong and OP did mean a live hatchling, then I disagree and think it should be frozen automatically (perhaps costing a charge) and it should only be possible with dragons that have no descendants.

[Fuzzbucket]

I don't really care which it means - but that was what it said. I still see no real point to it. You have a couple of days to freeze a hatchie at S1, and unless you blitzed it, probably the same at S2 - whichever 3 days to get it from hatchie to adult, and there's even stun.

[Murkydepths]

I've most often run into this issue when I've used up my freeze slots, and fog a hatchie waiting for them to return. But if they get too low they grow up automatically when unfogged, no time to freeze. It's not a huge issue, but it wouldn't harm the game and would have some use (probably more than the sanctify BSA...)

[Ripple_Tiger]

I've had multiple situations, specifically in the past couple months, where I have had a hatchie I wanna freeze but then life got to busy and stressful and it's an adult by the time I get back. So this has a lot of support by me

[The_unknown_tiger]

@HeatherMarie

 

The reason for no eggs is because it's not going to be growing up again. It is frozen in the stage it's reverted to. I have updated the wording. The point is to revert the dragon to a previous stage and have it frozen there. And seeing as we aren't allowed to freeze eggs at this time I believe this rule will keep it in line with the rest of the site.

 

@Fuzzbucket

If you read the whole suggestion you will understand that the hatchling would not grow up again. "Also it can help remove a dragon from your breeding pool that you never plan to breed."  Also I stated a one week cool done on doing it again on the same dragon. If I wanted to get a dragon reverted to S1 hatchling how exactly would it do that if it was growing? I Very much meant for it to be frozen once reverted. This will help people with busy lives, limited access and people who just forgot. I will update the post accordingly. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by The_unknown_tiger

[Fuzzbucket]

Thanks - now it is 100% clear.

[MissK.]

I don't know how I feel about an action that basically freezes hatchlings regardless of the limit. Let's say I've already hit my limit of freezes (which has happened repeatedly). I could then get a bunch of hatchlings and let them grow up to use the BSA on them and bam, frozen, right? That's convenient of course when someone forgets to freeze something on time etc, but it is also a way to circumvent the limit. It means I can insta-freeze a bunch of hatchlings with the regular action, and then keep using the BSA too, whereas right now I have to think more carefully about how many things I freeze. If that's fine by TJ because the timer still has to tick down all the way to adulthood, that's great. It just seems a bit contradictory to the limit we have in place. 

 

Wouldn't it be an option to revert the adult or hatchling back to the previous stage with, say, +1 day on its timer or something? Then it still has to be frozen manually, and could also become untradeable like named hatchlings are. No exploit of freezing over the limit, and no exploit of adding more time to a hatchling to trade it because it's stuck to your scroll. Just an idea. Edit: Or alternatively, only when used on adults, you have to have a freeze slot free to use it.

Edited August 28, 2022 by MissK.

[HeatherMarie]

Okay, apparently I misunderstood the suggestion the same way Fuzz did... I do *not* support this if it's just an auto-freeze. The idea itself, being able to revert to an earlier stage, could be useful for multiple reasons. But, despite what the OP seems to suggest, having a reverted dragon just auto-freeze seems like it would be used to get around the freeze limit. Heck, I'd *love* more freeze-slots, but we shouldn't be able to just sidestep the limits in this round-about way. You don't have freeze slots left? Let that hatchie grow up, then use Revert, you have another frozen hatchie despite the limits. That doesn't seem right. 

 

Unless this action would only be available if you have freeze slots left, but I don't see that said anywhere. No support if it gets around freeze limits. 

[Ripple_Tiger]

I believe freeze limits are there so you don't keep skipping the growing up timer and expanding your scroll, or at least that is my understanding. And you can't skip a timer by using revert, you just get a dragon away from the breeding pool you didn't want in there in the first place

[HeatherMarie]

Regardless of the possible *reasons* for having a freeze limit, it remains that this BSA would allow people to get around that limit. We have a limit, regardless of the reasons for it it's there, we shouldn't be able to cheat the limit with a BSA. 

[CaptainHarrie]

I think what people mean is if the reasons for the limit are as discussed, then it wouldn't be cheating the limit as it still follows the intended spirit of it. The limit is in place in order to facilitate the specific game design and progression that TJ wants, so things interacting with these mechanics should follow the same intentions that created the rule in the first place.

 

But also, I think we would be talking in circles irt whether or not it should or shouldn't cost a freeze charge, i think the arguments have merit on both sides. It makes sense for it to cost a charge based on the current system, but if people are right and the limit is in place to prevent people skipping the growth timer, then it not costing a charge also makes sense. Ultimately that decision comes down to what TJ believes suits the intended game design.

 

I think more important is to think if there are any possible breaking consequences to being able to revert an adult dragon back into a frozen hatchling. I already pointed out the interaction with lineages & it being important not to be useable on dragons with descendants, but are there any other mechanics it could interact with negatively? The game's gained quite a lot of new content since i was playing regularly years ago, so there could be something I can't think of.

[MissK.]

1 hour ago, CaptainHarrie said:

I think more important is to think if there are any possible breaking consequences to being able to revert an adult dragon back into a frozen hatchling. I already pointed out the interaction with lineages & it being important not to be useable on dragons with descendants, but are there any other mechanics it could interact with negatively? The game's gained quite a lot of new content since i was playing regularly years ago, so there could be something I can't think of.

 

While no descendants would solve the issue with lineages, personally I don't think it's fair if the dragon has been bred at all. It still allows for a chance at an egg, and then if it doesn't produce we could revert it to get a frozen. If someone wants to even have a chance at breeding a dragon, I think that dragon should be an adult permanently, sacrificing the possibility of having it as a frozen.

 

But even more importantly, any possible BSAs must have never been used. Again, these are strictly actions that you need an adult dragon for. If you let a pink grow up and use influence, then decide to revert it, that's not a case of "I forgot to do it on time" anymore. 

 

Personally, while I have also been in situations where I could have used this action, I don't know if setting so many conditions would be worth it so I'll say I'm neutral on the suggestion. But, I would not want it implemented without these limitations.

[Fuzzbucket]

20 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

Okay, apparently I misunderstood the suggestion the same way Fuzz did...

Thanks for the validation ! It really wasn't at all clear.

 

20 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

I do *not* support this if it's just an auto-freeze. The idea itself, being able to revert to an earlier stage, could be useful for multiple reasons. But, despite what the OP seems to suggest, having a reverted dragon just auto-freeze seems like it would be used to get around the freeze limit. Heck, I'd *love* more freeze-slots, but we shouldn't be able to just sidestep the limits in this round-about way. You don't have freeze slots left? Let that hatchie grow up, then use Revert, you have another frozen hatchie despite the limits. That doesn't seem right. 

 

Unless this action would only be available if you have freeze slots left, but I don't see that said anywhere. No support if it gets around freeze limits. 

 

This, exactly. Want an army of frozens and don't want to "waste" freeze slots - grow up a shedload and revert them. It's evading the limit every which way. I think it's spectacularly unnecessary, but if it were to happen, it has to cost a freeze slot.

[KageSora]

8 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

This, exactly. Want an army of frozens and don't want to "waste" freeze slots - grow up a shedload and revert them. It's evading the limit every which way. I think it's spectacularly unnecessary, but if it were to happen, it has to cost a freeze slot.

 

Genuine question--why should somebody who wants an army of frozens face limit and penalty while somebody who wants an army of adults not?  What's the difference?

[HeatherMarie]

43 minutes ago, KageSora said:

 

Genuine question--why should somebody who wants an army of frozens face limit and penalty while somebody who wants an army of adults not?  What's the difference?

 

Genuine answer - Getting adults includes, theoretically at least, some sort of effort taken. The whole 'raise a dragon' idea. You get an adult because you put in the effort. Yes you can trade for a low-timed hatchie, yes you could argue that tossing a few eggs into a hatchery isn't exactly 'effort', but still. In theory, it takes effort to get an adult. It doesn't necessarily take any effort at all to get a frozen hatchling, especially if you trade for the hatchling or catch it as a hatchie in the AP. Maybe more important game-wise, it doesn't take *time*. Making an army of adults takes time, both to growing-things limits and the time needed to raise them. Making an army of frozens *without* a limit could be nearly instantaneous (as someone who has frozen over a dozen hatchies in one day....). 

 

Snarky answer- Because limits were put in place for a reason, obviously TJ didn't think that amassing a huge amount of frozens at once was a good idea.

 

More on-topic: I don't care why the freeze limits exist, I personally don't *like* having freeze limits, and I don't care about the 'intended spirit' of a rule. If a rule/limit is in place, a mechanic that effectively gets around that rule/limit should not be introduced, period. If we were to be allowed to skirt the freeze limits with a BSA, why not just do away with the limit completely? It makes no sense to me. Personally I'd totally support a 'do away with freeze limits!' suggestion. But not a suggestion to just outright cheat the limits that are in place. 

 

Personally I'd think the best way to have some sort of 'revert' would be to *not* have it auto-freeze, but be scroll-locked (so no trading/gifting/etc, but it would still be a growing hatchling). It seems like that would satisfy the needs here (remove from breeding pool, didn't have time to freeze, etc) without getting around any limits.