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UnicornMaiden

BSA Suggestion- Overcast

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I suggest a BSA for Storm dragons called Overcast to protect eggs/hatchlings from being viewbombed. In essence it will act as a way to fog the egg when it is under attack, even if the user is not online at the time the attack happens.

 

When the BSA is used you will get to select which egg/hatchling you want to use it on. Then you will get a message along the lines of, "Your Storm dragon gathers clouds overhead, ready to bring them down around the egg/hatchling."

 

There will be no immediate effect, but then if the egg/hatchling receives more than X views within Y minutes the BSA will be activated, and the egg will automatically be fogged by the clouds that the Storm dragon brings down around it. It will remain fogged until the user deliberately unfogs it.

 

This suggestion won't do away with sickness since it will involve the deliberate use of a BSA to protect the egg/hatchling proactively, but it will make it possible for people to fog their eggs if an attack comes in the middle of the night or while they are at work or school.

 

The Overcast will dispel if the egg/hatchling is abandoned or traded. An egg/hatchling can be up for trade while it is Overcast, but if the fogging activates then the trade will auto-cancel since fogged things cannot be in trade. Each egg/hatchling can only be Overcast once, like with Ward.

 

I'm not sure what the best duration would be. Ideally I think I would like the egg/hatchling to remain Overcast for up to three days, which would give it a full 72 hours of protection, assuming the fogging is not activated. If that is considered too much, then I would want to see it last for at least 24 hours. On that note, I think the length of cooldown would depend on how long the Storm dragon can keep an egg/hatchling protected. If the protection could last the full three days, then I think a two week cooldown would be fair. If it could only last one day then I would want a one week cooldown.

 

I'm also not sure exactly how many views within how long a timeframe would be most effective to identify that an attack is happening before the egg/hatchling becomes sick.

 

Thoughts?

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This is a very well-thought-out suggestion, and the only 'auto-fog' type of suggestion I've ever seen that I'd support. I like it being a BSA intentionally used on a specific dragon, imo that's much more acceptable than the other suggestions where it's more an automatic blanket-fog. I don't like those suggestions because, regardless of viewbombing/sickness being too much and needing to be reworked to begin with, we *should* have to be responsible for our dragons and not just have the site auto-fog whenever there's a threat. But there *is* a serious issue with viewbombing (has been for way too many years...) and this suggestion seems to be a very good balance of personal responsibility and much-needed protection because we can't realistically be online 24/7. 

 

The details will be interesting to work out, though... Fansites regularly have increased traffic at specific times (holidays, new-releases, etc) so 'certain amount of views in certain amount of time' would need to take that into consideration somehow... Also, what happens once the egg/hatchie becomes ER-timed? That could cause the view rate to increase substantially if it's in any ERs (or a hatchery that auto-ERs, though I'm not sure if any of them do anymore?) but that might be totally wanted and they shouldn't be automatically fogged for that. Would there be a way for the user to 'dispel' the Overcast early if it gets to ER time?

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What if instead of activating when the eggs start gathering X number of views in Y mintues, how about as soon as that first egg gets sick? A protection for about 7 hours? That way if you need to go do something else and like to leave your scroll open, you can simply activate the bsa and leave for a few hours. If a viewbomb happens, oh look, the bsa has you covered. I only say 7 hours cause of bedtime for some people.

 

I fully support this btw 

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Yes this suggestion is really well thought out! I was worried for a second that if I do this then I deliberately want to bomb my own thing (to make them gender fast for example) I wouldn't be able to, then I saw "select which egg/hatchling you want to use it on" (my bad I don't read XD). Yes to the suggestion, that would be useful, fits the storm dragon too. I also think it'd be easier to go the "first thing under protection gets sick" route, they don't immediately die upon being sick and if you caught it and hide it right away they don't stay much longer either and I think that's a easier way to deal with this compared to trying to figure out a right X and Y.

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I like this, it seems very well thought out!

 

I agree with others though that the activation maybe should be when the egg/hatchi gets sick, instead of a certain interaction ratio.

 

Another concern-- would this be able to work on eggs/hatchis in trades? I know a lot of veiwbombing comes from the marketplace trades.

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21 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

The details will be interesting to work out, though... Fansites regularly have increased traffic at specific times (holidays, new-releases, etc) so 'certain amount of views in certain amount of time' would need to take that into consideration somehow... Also, what happens once the egg/hatchie becomes ER-timed? That could cause the view rate to increase substantially if it's in any ERs (or a hatchery that auto-ERs, though I'm not sure if any of them do anymore?) but that might be totally wanted and they shouldn't be automatically fogged for that. Would there be a way for the user to 'dispel' the Overcast early if it gets to ER time?

 

If the fogging activated when the user didn't want it to then they could just unfog it. It would be incentive for people to continue to be responsible for their eggs and not just rely on the BSA to do their work or them. Also, I suppose that one might be able to dispel the Overcast by intentionally fogging and then immediately unfogging. That might count as completing its job.

 

13 hours ago, Dalek said:

What if instead of activating when the eggs start gathering X number of views in Y mintues, how about as soon as that first egg gets sick? A protection for about 7 hours? That way if you need to go do something else and like to leave your scroll open, you can simply activate the bsa and leave for a few hours. If a viewbomb happens, oh look, the bsa has you covered. I only say 7 hours cause of bedtime for some people.

13 hours ago, Moriaty said:

Yes this suggestion is really well thought out! I was worried for a second that if I do this then I deliberately want to bomb my own thing (to make them gender fast for example) I wouldn't be able to, then I saw "select which egg/hatchling you want to use it on" (my bad I don't read XD). Yes to the suggestion, that would be useful, fits the storm dragon too. I also think it'd be easier to go the "first thing under protection gets sick" route, they don't immediately die upon being sick and if you caught it and hide it right away they don't stay much longer either and I think that's a easier way to deal with this compared to trying to figure out a right X and Y.

 

I guess that activating the BSA when the egg/hatchling becomes sick would be a lot easier to code. Personally I would prefer to prevent it from getting sick in the first place,  but it's true that it won't die immediately. I don't really like the idea of limiting the fog to just 7 hours. My idea was that it could fog automatically, and then it will be fogged for the person to unfog when they choose. Some people only log in once a day.

 

2 hours ago, Electric-Borealis said:

I like this, it seems very well thought out!

 

I agree with others though that the activation maybe should be when the egg/hatchi gets sick, instead of a certain interaction ratio.

 

Another concern-- would this be able to work on eggs/hatchis in trades? I know a lot of veiwbombing comes from the marketplace trades.

 

23 hours ago, UnicornMaiden said:

The Overcast will dispel if the egg/hatchling is abandoned or traded. An egg/hatchling can be up for trade while it is Overcast, but if the fogging activates then the trade will auto-cancel since fogged things cannot be in trade. Each egg/hatchling can only be Overcast once, like with Ward.

 

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4 hours ago, UnicornMaiden said:

I don't really like the idea of limiting the fog to just 7 hours. My idea was that it could fog automatically, and then it will be fogged for the person to unfog when they choose.

 

I wouldn't want just 7 hours either, and I also think having the auto-fog be lifted by the user would be another... Not a 'con', but a balance. Things can't grow while fogged, so people would need to log on and unfog in order for things to move along (if the fog has activated). That helps balance the longer protection time.

 

I do think it would probably be a lot simpler to just go with 'when the egg/hatchie gets sick' for the fog activating, but at the same time it would be wonderful to actually have a way to prevent sickness from happening in the first place. This is a targeted BSA so I don't think it's overpowering it to allow it to stop sickness from happening, and while they function differently we do already have Ward to help when eggs are actively sick. I would love it if this BSA could activate before it gets to the point that the dragon is actually sick, it would just have to take into consideration different situations regarding view-rate and such. 

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On 4/12/2022 at 11:07 PM, Moriaty said:

I also think it'd be easier to go the "first thing under protection gets sick" route, they don't immediately die upon being sick and if you caught it and hide it right away they don't stay much longer either and I think that's a easier way to deal with this compared to trying to figure out a right X and Y.

 

On 4/13/2022 at 4:47 PM, HeatherMarie said:

I do think it would probably be a lot simpler to just go with 'when the egg/hatchie gets sick' for the fog activating, but at the same time it would be wonderful to actually have a way to prevent sickness from happening in the first place.

Well, the site already knows what it takes (the X and Y) for any given egg to get sick. Maybe it could just trigger the activation of the fog instead of having the egg get sick.

 

However it will work, I do support this suggestion.

 

On 4/13/2022 at 9:24 AM, Electric-Borealis said:

Another concern-- would this be able to work on eggs/hatchis in trades? I know a lot of veiwbombing comes from the marketplace trades.

Hopefully you could set this up on an egg that is in a trade. If the egg gets viewbombed the fog would activate, which I would think would break the trade, since no one could see the fogged egg. Unless this is the transparent kind of fog that people have suggested for eggs in trade. But that does seem overpowered.

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1 hour ago, purplehaze said:

 

Well, the site already knows what it takes (the X and Y) for any given egg to get sick. Maybe it could just trigger the activation of the fog instead of having the egg get sick.

 

However it will work, I do support this suggestion.

 

Hopefully you could set this up on an egg that is in a trade. If the egg gets viewbombed the fog would activate, which I would think would break the trade, since no one could see the fogged egg. Unless this is the transparent kind of fog that people have suggested for eggs in trade. But that does seem overpowered.

 

I really like the idea of having it trigger the fog instead of the sickness. There wouldn't need to be any fussing of figuring out a new ratio since the game already knows when to make something sick, and since this involves the deliberate use of a targeted BSA it wouldn't be considered getting rid of sickness. Also:

 

On 4/12/2022 at 12:42 PM, UnicornMaiden said:

The Overcast will dispel if the egg/hatchling is abandoned or traded. An egg/hatchling can be up for trade while it is Overcast, but if the fogging activates then the trade will auto-cancel since fogged things cannot be in trade. Each egg/hatchling can only be Overcast once, like with Ward.

 

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1 hour ago, UnicornMaiden said:

 

I really like the idea of having it trigger the fog instead of the sickness. There wouldn't need to be any fussing of figuring out a new ratio since the game already knows when to make something sick, and since this involves the deliberate use of a targeted BSA it wouldn't be considered getting rid of sickness. Also:

 

 

This sounds perfect, really. Crossing fingers for this suggestion!!

 

I'm still a little nervous that TJ may say it's overpowered or something, especially the idea that an egg that would otherwise get sick would just get fogged instead. He's shot down so many anti-sickness ideas in the past, so I'm just going to toss a few 'balancing' ideas in here just in case? Like, I'm not saying any of this would have to be included or anything, but if the suggestion would otherwise be shot down maybe there could be some things that could balance it's power more: Possible longer cooldowns for the BSA to reflect the huge usefulness of it, or a 'one time per egg/dragon' the way Ward is where if the fog is activated and then the user unfogs it, the BSA can't be used on that same egg/hatchie again. 

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If we can't get rid of sickness altogether, this sounds like a decent counter-measure to deliberate viewbombing. It would also prevent others from messing with ERs against the owner's will, regardless of sickness. One concern: if this is triggered by x amount of views in y amount of time, I could see it being abused by people to cancel others' trades out of spite. 'Oh you rejected my offer? I'll viewbomb your egg/hatchling so the trade gets cancelled and you lose any other existing offers.' Even that is still safer than having an egg die altogether though.

Edited by MissK.

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If TJ is not interested in removing sickness, then why would he be interested in a BSA which makes sickness not a thing once you get enough dragons? This would also make Ward obsolete, and by the way: it's probably not a coincidence that Ward works the way it does, instead of just simply and outright curing sickness.
And maybe TJ also didn't like how fertility was making refusals not a thing.

Perhaps there's just no solution(?) for people who get constantly viewbombed on trading hub, because as long as sickness exists viewbombers will get to you somehow, and sickness will exist.

Wouldn't you need a permission from creators to change Storm dragon's lore/abilities? Lightning element has the least amount of dragons too, so it's better to make a new dragon for this BSA. :)

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It was TJ who set up and announced that Fertility would reduce the rate of refusals. It CERTAINLY doesn't prevent them, as many of us can testify.

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On 4/15/2022 at 12:20 PM, MissK. said:

One concern: if this is triggered by x amount of views in y amount of time, I could see it being abused by people to cancel others' trades out of spite. 'Oh you rejected my offer? I'll viewbomb your egg/hatchling so the trade gets cancelled and you lose any other existing offers.' Even that is still safer than having an egg die altogether though.

Since people can, and do, already viewbomb your egg/hatchling if you refuse their offer, this would make it no worse and in fact would make it less likely for your baby to die from spiteful actions like that.

 

I really like this idea and wish it could be a thing, but the more I think about it the more I doubt TJ would go so far in protecting things. Ward has a time limit which he was not willing to increase, so I really doubt he would give us something that could pretty much eliminate sickness and death for the egg/hatchling's whole time of development.

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Personally I don't see this BSA as 'eliminating' sickness, it's just an additional tool to help combat an issue that people have been upset over for a good decade now. We *did* get Ward implemented, and that was relatively recently (2017 I believe), so it's not like TJ is never willing to do anything to help the sickness issue. We just have to figure out something that won't go too far, since he *does* want the sickness mechanic to remain. This BSA has multiple balances/cons: Whatever cooldown is implemented, only being available via one breed, dragon not able to grow while fogged, and there can be more to balance things out as I mentioned in an earlier post. 

 

Of course if TJ comes in here and just shoots this down, that's it, but until then I think it's a good idea to try and work out details on this suggestion that could be such a help against something we really have no control over (viewbombing) while still keeping the sickness mechanic in place.  The OP did mention if 3 days was too long of a protection it could be 24 hours, and if my idea of Ward-like 'once per dragon' was also added that would give a maximum benefit of 24 hours per growing dragon, which certainly is not enough to completely eliminate the threat of sickness.

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Support. Something to combat viewbombing is good- I like sickness being a mechanic and want it to stay,  but sickness from someone else viewbombing is not meant to be the problem, as it's against the rules to do. I also like the strategic element of this having to be done proactively. I like that it's once per dragon like Ward.

Edited by ravensunset

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On 4/16/2022 at 3:40 PM, Lost_Unicorn said:

If TJ is not interested in removing sickness, then why would he be interested in a BSA which makes sickness not a thing once you get enough dragons? This would also make Ward obsolete, and by the way: it's probably not a coincidence that Ward works the way it does, instead of just simply and outright curing sickness.
And maybe TJ also didn't like how fertility was making refusals not a thing.

Perhaps there's just no solution(?) for people who get constantly viewbombed on trading hub, because as long as sickness exists viewbombers will get to you somehow, and sickness will exist.

Wouldn't you need a permission from creators to change Storm dragon's lore/abilities? Lightning element has the least amount of dragons too, so it's better to make a new dragon for this BSA. :)

 

This would not eliminate sickness or make Ward obsolete. For one thing, the Overcast will only last 1-3 days and will only be usable one time. If you use the BSA as soon as the egg is laid you could still get viewbombed after the protection has worn off. However, this later viewbombing would be much less likely to result in death since older eggs and hatchlings are hardier than brand new eggs. For another, we haven't settled on the best way to have the fogging activate. If it activates when the egg/hatchling becomes sick then it would still be sick, and the user would be smart to Ward it as soon as they log on.

 

We are a far cry from throwing up our hands and saying there's no solution to the problem of viewbombing. I believe this BSA would be an effective way of addressing the issue, and there have been many other good suggestions made over the years.

 

I'm not sure about getting permission from the Storm dragon's creator. It is one of the original breeds on the site, so I don't know if the concept creator is even still active. For all I know, TJ might even be their concept creator. They have been updated and changed a few times already, gaining the dimorphism sprites and having their name changed from Gray Dragon, so it's not like new updates to the breed would be unwelcome. I think they are perfectly suited for a fogging BSA since their egg description mentions fog, their hatchling description mentions clouds, they can control weather, and the adult dragon is shown holding a cloud. Even if we were going to create a new breed this BSA doesn't have anything to do with electricity, so I don't see how a Lightning element dragon would make any sense.

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17 minutes ago, UnicornMaiden said:

Even if we were going to create a new breed this BSA doesn't have anything to do with electricity, so I don't see how a Lightning element dragon would make any sense.

Seconding this point.

 

Quite frankly, if a new breed were to be created centered around this sort of BSA, I would actually envision it fitting best as either a water-aligned breed that has something to do with mist or an air-aligned breed that's specifically connected with clouds (or possibly a water/air breed), which would make more sense than trying to find some other way to make an lightning-aligned dragon that makes logical sense for this that isn't just "Storm Dragon 2.0".

 

While I suppose somebody could make a new breed centered around this, I don't really see why that would be necessary (much less better) unless TJ comes in and says that, for whatever reason, no BSAs are able to be attached to the Storm dragons.  I wouldn't be opposed to somebody doing that instead of this being attached to Storms, but I don't think that's inherently needed to make the idea viable.

 

The OP is, by itself, very well-reasoned and the discussion that's gone on has been very solid.

 

Besides--even if TJ nixed the idea of this for Storms, wouldn't it be best to iron out a lot of the details of how to make the BSA work in the most viable way anyway before creating a breed around it?  That discussion will have to happen eventually even if you create a brand new breed around the concept.  It might as well happen now and be ready for use in the event that TJ ever says "Idea is plausible, breed is not".

 

And that discussion's exactly what's been happening, so it seems odd to figure this is a lost cause that just needs to be scrapped because "welp, that's the way it works, sucks if your dragons die but that's just the game".

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1 hour ago, KageSora said:

Quite frankly, if a new breed were to be created centered around this sort of BSA, I would actually envision it fitting best as either a water-aligned breed that has something to do with mist or an air-aligned breed that's specifically connected with clouds (or possibly a water/air breed), which would make more sense than trying to find some other way to make an lightning-aligned dragon that makes logical sense for this that isn't just "Storm Dragon 2.0".

Not to be too pedantic, but Storms aren't Lightning element dragons and have never been such - you might be confusing them with Thunders/Electrics. Storms are aligned with Air and are explicitly said to manipulate weather, not specifically lightning/storms.

wMXYfeA.png

 

I do agree that it would be best to make a new breed for the BSA, but I don't see anything wrong with giving it to the existing breed either. Breeds that were on the site from beginning - like Whites - have received BSAs too, after all.

 

Also this goes without saying, but on the general topic of this suggestion - support. I don't see how this would make Ward obsolete since it doesn't prevent sickness on its own, it just stops it from getting worse. Ward is also immensely helpful when dealing with stubborn eggs like Avatars/Zyus and Overcast wouldn't diminish its value in that way.

 

Most importantly, it would still be useful on its own not just for trades, but for people like me who tend to hide their scrolls when they are away and would like to avoid that hassle if possible.

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42 minutes ago, LevelsOfViolence said:

Not to be too pedantic, but Storms aren't Lightning element dragons and have never been such - you might be confusing them with Thunders/Electrics. Storms are aligned with Air and are explicitly said to manipulate weather, not specifically lightning/storms.

To be fair, we (myself and the person I quoted) were responding to a person who said that it's best to create a new breed because lightning has the least amount of dragons--which honestly sounded like bizarre reasoning to me.  Which is why I pointed out that if a new breed were to be made, going the route of "Storms 2.0" (which I was using to mean "Storms But Make Them Zappy This Time") wouldn't really make any kind of sense for this sort of BSA.  At least not due to that specific line of reasoning.  An argument could be made for a Lightning-aligned breed that specialized in storm cloud magic, I suppose, but that'd be a result of the cloud-related magic rather than the Lightning affinity.

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On 4/17/2022 at 2:03 AM, HeatherMarie said:

We *did* get Ward implemented, and that was relatively recently (2017 I believe), so it's not like TJ is never willing to do anything to help the sickness issue.

Ward was a public request?
Did TJ explicitly state the reason why he implemented ward? Just because TJ did something that people wanted, does not mean that he did it for the same reasons why people wanted that thing. So it might have seemed like he "agreed" on some issue, but in reality he didn't.
 

On 4/17/2022 at 2:41 AM, ravensunset said:

Something to combat viewbombing is good- I like sickness being a mechanic and want it to stay,  but sickness from someone else viewbombing is not meant to be the problem, as it's against the rules to do.

What is there to like about sickness? It almost doesn't exist outside of viewbombing, unless you've made a mistake or intentionally took advantage of it to kill a bred egg or something, which might not be intended to be possible. There being a mechanic that prevents people from plastering their dragons all over the internet is fair of course.

 

On 4/20/2022 at 2:48 AM, UnicornMaiden said:

This would not eliminate sickness or make Ward obsolete. For one thing, the Overcast will only last 1-3 days and will only be usable one time. If you use the BSA as soon as the egg is laid you could still get viewbombed after the protection has worn off. However, this later viewbombing would be much less likely to result in death since older eggs and hatchlings are hardier than brand new eggs. For another, we haven't settled on the best way to have the fogging activate. If it activates when the egg/hatchling becomes sick then it would still be sick, and the user would be smart to Ward it as soon as they log on.

How I think sickness works: there's a threshold to get the sickness message and a threshold for a chance of/certain death; there's a considerable distance between those two thresholds.
So in my eyes if Overcast activates as a reaction to sickness, i.e. literally at the start of it, then there's no reason to use ward, because that sickness cannot be dangerous. However if Overcast is limited to one use, then ward will still be useful because if you are someone who experiences viewbombing often, then the chances are you are just going to get viewbombed again after using Overcast.
Someone somewhere mentioned that TJ didn't like "Smart Hatcheries", so I think 3 days is too long because sickness might be intended to make you keep visiting the game regularly and allow for random accidents to happen (like auto-abandon allows for accidents, which I think is intentional).
 

On 4/20/2022 at 2:48 AM, UnicornMaiden said:

We are a far cry from throwing up our hands and saying there's no solution to the problem of viewbombing. I believe this BSA would be an effective way of addressing the issue, and there have been many other good suggestions made over the years.

It will help, but some people might still get badly viewbombed and for them the issue will remain unresolved. You would need a really powerful tool or a fundamental change to sickness/something else to cull all viewbombing. But people who are viewbombed hard are the minority I guess and that might be why many suggestions have been rejected: because for the majority things are more-or-less balanced and working as intended.
I am not saying nothing should be done because of that, however.

On 4/16/2022 at 10:40 PM, Lost_Unicorn said:

Wouldn't you need a permission from creators to change Storm dragon's lore/abilities? Lightning element has the least amount of dragons too, so it's better to make a new dragon for this BSA. :)

My question was genuine and not a statement, it was also the main concern. I really didn't think through the second part and I didn't even check the encyclopedia, for which I apologise, but I wasn't expecting it to be taken too seriously either.
 

On 4/20/2022 at 6:21 AM, KageSora said:

To be fair, we (myself and the person I quoted) were responding to a person who said that it's best to create a new breed because lightning has the least amount of dragons--which honestly sounded like bizarre reasoning to me.

It should have sounded somewhat sarcastic. Lore issues put aside: I don't see a problem with this, and I think it would be preferable to create a new dragon for a small category rather than use an old one. I might be wrong about this, but I think creating one dragon for a BSA wouldn't be an issue for TJ and The Artist Team.

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Bumping this since the winter holidays are coming up and there are always some grinches who like to mess with people's holiday breeding.

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