Your thoughts on The Bible?

[StormBirdRising]

15 hours ago, PrincessLucy said:

I have had this discussion with several people over the years.

 

They say the bible was written by God.

 

Ummm...no.

 

Then they say, well, it was written by man inspired by God. God told him what to write.

 

Ummm...you mean like hearing voices? 

 

I have been going to different Bible type studies to see what it is about and I never heard anyone say it was written by God, not any Christians, not any Jewishes, not anybody at any of the classes.  Everyone said it was written by 40 people over a span of about 150 years and that the Bible was inspired by God,  that God used men to write the Bible.   

[PrincessLucy]

9 hours ago, StormBirdRising said:

 

I have been going to different Bible type studies to see what it is about and I never heard anyone say it was written by God, not any Christians, not any Jewishes, not anybody at any of the classes.  Everyone said it was written by 40 people over a span of about 150 years and that the Bible was inspired by God,  that God used men to write the Bible.   

There was a Jehovah's Witness that used to come to my house to see my mother. My mother never let her or the other person that she would bring (it was her husband until he passed, and then it would be whoever she was paired up with) come in the house. My mother just wanted the literature, but I doubt she ever read it.

 

Her name was Henrietta. I don't remember her husband's name. They were such a cute couple. . She was elderly with a strong German accent and she would try to get me to be interested, and would say about the bible being God's word, and written by God. 

 

I always thought it funny that she and her husband would say that, as if the bible was dictated to whomever wrote it.  Perhaps part of it was that English was not their first language, as she occasionally struggled to find the right words.

 

Who's to say that those who wrote it were inspired by God. Perhaps they just wrote what they thought. Who knows for sure. 

 

I don't believe in God or the devil, or any of that stuff, but I understand that others do.

 

Way back in elementary school we would be allowed to leave the school for lunch and my friend Dawn would always try to convert me on the way back to school. She was a fervent believer even at 10 years old. I was a non-believer even then.

[KrazyKarp]

I feel that people's belief in whether the more fantasy-oriented elements of the Bible are true, such as God's existence and Jesus' magic, depends largely on how willing you are to accept that something is true without proof; that's faith, after all. I can't do that. It also, from what I observed as a former Catholic, comes from a desperation to explain what appears to be unexplainable, and a desperation for a way out of the bad in the world (i.e. concept of a heaven). Belief in the Bible's fantasy-oriented elements being true creates a comfort for many people, a mental method of escaping and explaining the bad in the world, at the sacrifice of logical and critical thinking. Of course, many times I've asked myself the question "Is this really so bad if it helps some people feel happier and more at peace?", to which my answer seems to be as long as you aren't hurting anyone, including yourself, then I suppose it's not so bad.

[StormBirdRising]

On 5/14/2022 at 5:17 PM, PrincessLucy said:

There was a Jehovah's Witness that used to come to my house to see my mother.

 

Yes, I know of the Jehovah's Witness also.  Some came to my house many years ago.  I remember that they would not accept donation from me.  I thought they were asking to donate money but they wanted to tell me of Jehovah.  It was a hot day.  I made decaf iced tea for them.  I thought they could not have caffeine.  When I asked them they said that was "Mormon religion" that they could have it but not indulge in it.  So whenever they came I made them Sadaf tea and sometimes cake and pastries.  I haven't seen them for over 2 years now.  I hope they are okay.  

[lost_wings]

Sacred text & more scientifically sound than it's given credit for. check out Kent Hovind's 7-part creationism lecture series on youtube. it's long but absolutely fascinating and changed my life, and if you don't walk away convinced you at least will have your worldview significantly changed (he relies completely on reputable science to counter & debunk mainstream scientific narratives that are often used against the Bible. it should be noted that before viewing, I was religious but believed much of the Bible to be a metaphor or exaggeration; it's an extremely compelling lecture).

 

also, contrary to popular belief, the Bible doesn't say anything about homosexuality. that translation is somewhat new (after 1800)—the Bible is retranslated a lot, not always with pure intentions—and these passages originally refer to a specific practice that isn't dc safe for discussion, but that certainly no one would object to condemning. take it from me, a lesbian Christian, & get rid of the stereotype that homophobic/hateful Christians are the majority. even growing up in a church community, I've never interacted with one. ♡

also feel free to pm me with questions/comments at any time!

Edited June 11, 2022 by lost_wings

[Rosedamai]

On 6/8/2022 at 5:45 AM, lost_wings said:

also, contrary to popular belief, the Bible doesn't say anything about homosexuality. that translation is somewhat new (after 1800)—the Bible is retranslated a lot, not always with pure intentions—and these passages originally refer to a specific practice that isn't dc safe for discussion, but that certainly no one would object to condemning. take it from me, a lesbian Christian, & get rid of the stereotype that homophobic/hateful Christians are the majority. even growing up in a church community, I've never interacted with one. ♡

Okay.  The reason why that hateful or bigoted Christians are not seen as the majority, whether that is the truth or not, is because firstly bigoted churches export their hateful ideas as their toxic mindset is no longer "acceptable" in the U.S to other countries, because their denominations are diminishing and they are turning their eyes to previously "uncharted" waters. For example US Christian right groups have spend millions in Africa spreading hate another example here. Another thing to remember that even if Christianity within mainstream society has become more safe to LGBTQAI+ people, that is certainly not the case in some immigrant societies, where the church operates as basically a place for communal gathering. These churches aren't losing denominations, and with connections to churches in said immigrants' home countries, they are also exporting US based bigoted rhetoric to churches in said home countries, where the hateful brand of Christianity could be the majority. 

So no, homophobic/hateful Christians are not the minority, they're just less focused in the U.S and more focused in spreading their hate abroad. 

ETA: and I'd like to add that with the influx of transphobia I'm not sure if they ever become the minority in the first place 

Edited June 9, 2022 by ylangylang

[lost_wings]

On 6/9/2022 at 3:48 AM, ylangylang said:

Okay.  The reason why that hateful or bigoted Christians are not seen as the majority, whether that is the truth or not, is because firstly bigoted churches export their hateful ideas as their toxic mindset is no longer "acceptable" in the U.S to other countries, because their denominations are diminishing and they are turning their eyes to previously "uncharted" waters. For example US Christian right groups have spend millions in Africa spreading hate another example here. Another thing to remember that even if Christianity within mainstream society has become more safe to LGBTQAI+ people, that is certainly not the case in some immigrant societies, where the church operates as basically a place for communal gathering. These churches aren't losing denominations, and with connections to churches in said immigrants' home countries, they are also exporting US based bigoted rhetoric to churches in said home countries, where the hateful brand of Christianity could be the majority. 

So no, homophobic/hateful Christians are not the minority, they're just less focused in the U.S and more focused in spreading their hate abroad. 

ETA: and I'd like to add that with the influx of transphobia I'm not sure if they ever become the minority in the first place 

While I am no way arguing that Christianity is not sometimes abused as a vehicle for political agenda, I disagree that this is the standard practice an anti-gay majority. The main point of the first article is to demonstrate that mainstream Christian groups do not approve of these groups. It states, “It’s troubling that ultra-conservative Christian groups seem to have the loudest megaphones. Their divisive anti-LGBTQ views don’t reflect where most Americans – including most Christians – actually stand […] We want to see more stories about the many Christians who support, affirm and love the LGBTQ people in their lives.” It even links to a study that reports that nearly half (47%) of LGBT adults in America are religious. This article in no way supports the claim that "most Christians are LGBT-phobic, they just know their hate isn't acceptable in America so they secretly spread it overseas." (I'm interested in your claim that because "[bigoted churches'] denominations" (did you mean attendance? A denomination is a belief system, like Anglican or Lutheran) "are diminishing, they are turning their eyes to previously uncharted waters"—does this have a source, or is it an assumption?)

The second article reports that over 20 groups are the culprits of this unacceptable practice. 20 may seem like a lot, but when considering that Christianity is the largest religion in America (nearly 2/3rds of the population), it should be in no way considered a representation of a majority. Simply by googling "pro-gay Christian organizations" and clicking a single example, I was able to find a list of 23 support groups for LGBT Christians and their allies. Furthermore, this article includes evidence that these groups' activities may be more politically motivated than based on the beliefs of the layperson: the "biggest spender [of these groups] in Africa" is spearheaded by David Bahati, a Ugandan politician who supports anti-gay legislature. Is it not likely that the Fellowship Foundation, the group he represents, is primarily being used to support his political agenda & personal career? The point is, if you ask the average Christian American whether or not they believe the practice of exporting homophobia to be acceptable, I guarantee the answer will be a resounding "no."

Regardless, my main point is that the text in question, the Bible itself, does not condemn homosexuality, and anyone who claims it does is fundamentally misrepresenting the scripture. God doesn't care if you're gay—He made you that way, after all!

Edited June 11, 2022 by lost_wings

[Rosedamai]

On 6/11/2022 at 8:24 PM, lost_wings said:

I'm interested in your claim that because "[bigoted churches'] denominations" (did you mean attendance? A denomination is a belief system, like Anglican or Lutheran) "are diminishing, they are turning their eyes to previously uncharted waters"—does this have a source, or is it an assumption?)

I did mean attendance, sorry about that 

https://inallthings.org/finding-conservative-christianitys-place-outside-the-u-s-a-review-of-no-borders/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/03/05/bond-that-explains-why-some-christian-right-support-putins-war/

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15570274.2019.1608652

 

Also I am from one of those countries so I see rhetoric that's considered "outdated" in the U.S being literally parroted-in some cases they even use the same images-sent to the country I live in so there's that. 

I do not want to argue with your point that more Christians are being less bigoted in the U.S or that the bible does not inherently condemn LGBTQAI+ people, I just want people who are Christians in the U.S to be aware and to please do something to stop this, uh, baggage, to put it nicely, from flowing into other countries. That'll be all. 

 

[lost_wings]

On 6/13/2022 at 2:33 AM, ylangylang said:

I did mean attendance, sorry about that 

https://inallthings.org/finding-conservative-christianitys-place-outside-the-u-s-a-review-of-no-borders/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/03/05/bond-that-explains-why-some-christian-right-support-putins-war/

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15570274.2019.1608652

 

Also I am from one of those countries so I see rhetoric that's considered "outdated" in the U.S being literally parroted-in some cases they even use the same images-sent to the country I live in so there's that. 

I do not want to argue with your point that more Christians are being less bigoted in the U.S or that the bible does not inherently condemn LGBTQAI+ people, I just want people who are Christians in the U.S to be aware and to please do something to stop this, uh, baggage, to put it nicely, from flowing into other countries. That'll be all. 

It's horrible when the Bible is appropriated to push a political agenda. I'm sorry if you've been discriminated against or treated poorly by people calling themselves Christian (which is what I believe is the primary meaning of "taking the Lord's name in vain").  A sign I saw yesterday while driving past a local church said, "God is love, you are loved, happy Pride," and especially in June we're praying this message will continue to spread to countries where homophobia is still a major issue.

[HeatherMarie]

On 6/11/2022 at 4:24 AM, lost_wings said:

While I am no way arguing that Christianity is not sometimes abused as a vehicle for political agenda, I disagree that this is the standard practice an anti-gay majority.

 

I have been to several churches in my city (and spoken with pastors at several others) and every single one has said outright that living a homosexual life is a sin.  While I personally don't believe God would see it that way (I'm a lesbian as well) and I'm well aware not all religious people believe that, I've yet to come across any 'organized religious place' (ie church) that doesn't push that narrative.  It is nice to be reminded that not all Christians think that way though.

[purpledragonclaw]

18 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

I have been to several churches in my city (and spoken with pastors at several others) and every single one has said outright that living a homosexual life is a sin.  While I personally don't believe God would see it that way (I'm a lesbian as well) and I'm well aware not all religious people believe that, I've yet to come across any 'organized religious place' (ie church) that doesn't push that narrative.  It is nice to be reminded that not all Christians think that way though.

 

I stopped going to church because the message of love and acceptance Jesus teaches has been twisted into hatred and evil by so many ministers, preachers, and pastors, mainly against the LGBTQIA2S+ community, but also against immigrants. Heck, there are still some that preach against interracial marriage as well (yes, in this day and age). Many that lead in the churches don't know the Bible anymore, they just use it as a bludgeoning tool to push their politics. 

 

I have been to one church where they were fully accepting of homosexuality and the entire LGBTQIA2S+ community and it was a true breath of fresh air. They preached love and acceptance. I would go there if they were closer to me. Pride flags everywhere. Flags for each branch of the Pride community. They are definitely in the minority, but take heart in the fact they exist. 

 

I tried to read the Bible years ago and stopped in Deuteronomy. I fully intend to pick studying it back up.

[lost_wings]

On 6/20/2022 at 5:31 PM, purpledragonclaw said:

 

I stopped going to church because the message of love and acceptance Jesus teaches has been twisted into hatred and evil by so many ministers, preachers, and pastors, mainly against the LGBTQIA2S+ community, but also against immigrants. Heck, there are still some that preach against interracial marriage as well (yes, in this day and age). Many that lead in the churches don't know the Bible anymore, they just use it as a bludgeoning tool to push their politics. 

Ironic that the Bible teaches the opposite. "The stranger who dwells among you shall be to you as one born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God." (Leviticus 19:34) Unfortunately, any church is a human institution, and therefore susceptible to human agendas & human corruption. While a religious community to be a part of, study with, and find support in can be a very good thing—and from a scholarly perspective, it's important to consider others' insights to figure out whether you agree or disagree with them, and why—I believe that ultimately one's own relationship with the Bible & relationship with God should be considered over what xyz group or person is preaching.

The stances of any local church in particular are naturally going to be heavily influenced by the general beliefs of the local population. (I mean, they're the people who are going to be running and attending the church.) Growing up in California, all the religious institutions I had contact with were pretty pro-LGBT; it's the same here in eastern Canada. That being said, a church in the southern US will probably preach that being gay is wrong, despite the passages usually cited for this being modern retranslations (see above posts). I mean, David (of David & Goliath fame) and Jonathan (son of Saul, Israel's 1st king) were in a committed relationship, as described by the Bible itself:

 

(1 Samuel 17:58) "And Saul said to him, 'Whose son are you, young man?' And David answered, 'I am the son of your servant Jesse the Bethlehemite.' Now it came about when he had finished speaking to Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David" ("keil," literally “The soul of Jonathan bound itself to the soul of David"), "and Jonathan loved him as himself." (literally "as his own soul.")  "And Saul took him that day and did not let him return to his father's house. Then Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was on him and gave it to David, with his armor, including his sword and his bow and his belt." (source)

 

Considering that Christianity is the most popular religion in the world, and knowing how humans generally are, it should come as no surprise that some use it to justify whatever political belief they already have. (What better way to strengthen a political view in someone's heart than to tie it to something as powerful and personal as religion?) To label the Bible as being "of x modern political ideology" is to wrongly recontextualize it, and it's really not fair that Christianity has become so associated with the inflammatory ideologies that some have misappropriated it to justify.

[Locusts]

Oooo a controversial topic! I know nothing of the new testament--I'm a jew, so I've only read the tanakh (christian old testament) but if nothing else its rather interesting! Even if you don't believe the events unfolded at all, the idea that these stories have been told for thousands of years to millions and billions of people is kind of incredible.

I do find the content of it rather funny at times, and rather relatable at others. It's hard to comprehend relationship/familial issues and other personal issues being similar now than they were a couple thousand years ago, and yet! The past seems so alien, but the struggles of Yonah are very familiar.

As for the content itself, there's not really much I can say that hasn't been said already. The bible itself isn't inherently bad though, I believe that. It's a religious tool, and religions themselves are a sort of tool for navigating life in of themselves--that is, I believe they're neutral.

But as far as religious texts go, call me heretic but I prefer the talmud. It's leagues more entertaining to read than some chapters of the tanakh, namely numbers and chronicles.

 

On 6/7/2022 at 2:45 PM, lost_wings said:

also, contrary to popular belief, the Bible doesn't say anything about homosexuality. that translation is somewhat new (after 1800)—the Bible is retranslated a lot, not with pure intentions—and these passages originally refer to a specific practice that isn't dc safe for discussion, but that certainly no one would object to condemning. take it from me, a lesbian Christian, & get rid of the stereotype that homophobic/hateful Christians are the majority. even growing up in a church , I've never interacted with one. ♡

also feel free to pm me with questions/comments at any time!

Ah, also I hate to interject but if you're referring to the leviticus text it was absolutely homophobic, its more of a rumor that it's not. That shouldn't be an issue though, because christians aren't supposed to follow the laws of the old testament in the first place. I do agree with many of your other points though.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Locusts

[Awdz]

I really like & agree with the things lost_wings has been posting.

 

I just wrote a research paper on whether or not homosexuals should be ordained, using both Biblical and non-biblical citations, and came to the conclusion that it depends on the societal structure. In the West where (because of WWII) gender roles do not define whether or not you can get a job in industry,  I concluded the answer is yes. In places where gender roles are the fundamental glue holding society together, I concluded the answer is no (at least, not yet). This presents a challenge to global churches, because they have to ensure they do not undermine society in a way that causes more harm than good (e.g., starts a war) if someone ordained in one area tries to serve in another country/on another continent.

 

For me, it basically boils down to showing God's restorative love to people in this broken world.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Awdz Bodkins

[BlackMagicRose]

So, my whole thing is that I don't believe in God. I am a Witch or I guess what people would call Pagan or Wiccan. I'm solitary so I don't really buy into the coven deal. Anyway, the problem I have with the Bible is that it has been written and rewritten and translated thousands of times over thousands of years. Any time something is translated it loses something in the process. One quote that I will stand by for the rest of my life regarding God is from the move "Contact" with Jodie Foster as Eleanor Arroway is actually really thought provoking. Quote is: "So what's more likely? That an all-powerful, mysterious God created the Universe, and decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that He simply doesn't exist at all, and that we created Him, so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone?" ~Eleanor Arroway played by Jodie Foster.

[screwygirl]

To me, the Bible has some decent teachings in it... good parables or anecdotes to guide people morally. It should not be taken literally, considering it was written in a time in which some of the principles no longer apply. Slavery, for example, is considered to be inhumane by a large number of cultures and societies, and some of the laws written in the Bible pertain to slaves. 

 

My opinion is that it should not be used to govern any nation because of its dependence on faith (I don't believe science because it contradicts the Bible), its hypocrisy, its necessity for interpretation, and its irrelevance to modern life. Even in church, it shouldn't be used as a literal rulebook. Instead, it should only be a guide to the followers of that religion. Also, because of the lack of evidence, the Bible should not be used in science. 

 

All in all, no... the Bible cannot be trusted.

 

 

[XxcutiepupxX]

I don't believe in the bible and I hate how people use it as an excuse to bully/harass me. You can believe whatever you want but don't put that on me or anyone else.

[demonicvampiregirl]

Used to go to church as a kid, used to believe and after a specific point, just stopped. Praying got me no where, things in my life have improved slightly but are not the best still and in many ways are still just as bad prior, and I got to watch as over time, it was nothing but hate. No loving god, you lived their way or burned. I currently have no religion, I do find myself wondering from time to time if there is anyone out there but I have my doubts with how things are in this world anymore. Either he existed and abandoned us or he never existed at all.

 

If you believe, fine by me, just do not go trying to convert me, preach to me, none of it. Only person I would let talk to me about it was my grandma. I've wanted to read about Wicca/Paganism when a friend of mine talked about it, tried discussing it with my mother and got shut down. Apparently reading about it is a crime and freedom of religion doesn't exist, so I never bring any religion up unless it's being talked about because of a news story.

[Fuzzbucket]

As far as I'm concerned the bible contains some REALLY good stories, some of which have good moral lessons, some of which are historically correct and many of which are neither.

My father was a,n Anglican minister, and he told me I'd "got it".

[BlackMagicRose]

I don't believe in God or organized religion. I am a Witch and I guess the easiest way to describe my beliefs is I am very tied and drawn to nature. The Bible is a book that has been translated and rewritten thousands of times over thousands of years. Every time something is translated there's something lost or construed differently. There was a quote in a movie that I have always loved and found to be very fitting when referring to God and the Bible  "So what's more likely?  That an all-powerful, mysterious God created the Universe, and decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that He simply doesn't exist at all, andthat we created Him, so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone?" - Jodie Foster as Ellie Arroway in the movie "Contact" based on the book by Carl Sagan.

[Impulsive_Egg]

too long, didn't finish, 2/5

[_Ro_]

On 1/4/2023 at 9:34 PM, Impulsive_Egg said:

too long, didn't finish, 2/5

Wow, so insightful. ^^

 

 

 

Idk if I want to share my thoughts here as I don't want to make enemies, but also honest communication is the only way things ever work out well.

 

My personal belief, and kinda continueing from what blackmagicrose said about books being translated and changed.... is that god wouldn't give his word in a form that is inaccessable to anyone; The dinosaurs had it, aliens have it, people in 10,000 years will still have it.  All the important answers are inside you; cliche as it sounds, 'follow your heart'. because a basic sense of right and wrong is universal; even if we can argue about details, we all know the key points like 'murder = bad'

 

 

So I don't believe the bible but I respect people who do and are sensible about it.  Like, we don't all have to agree with eachother to live alongside eachother.  If someone thinks being LGBT or pagan or whatever is a bad thing, I don't really care as long as they don't act on that prejudice to hurt anyone.... I include voting for leaders who will use the law to hurt us...  

 

Like just let people mind their own business and I won't mind your's, y'know?

 

That said, growing up  in a christian-majority village is pretty lonely when you aren't 'in the club', even if people are rarely overtly bigoted.

 

Within pagan communities i've noticed there's often animosity towards the abrahamic religions and a very vitriolic rejection of it. I can honestly understand that considering both my own experiences and  stories i've heard from others, but I think we should lead by example and do the whole 'judge people by the content of their character' thing even if many people still don't.

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by _Ro_

[Snowwall]

I've heard that there were scrolls of about a dozen extra Gospel versions brought in to one of the Russian queens (there's a receipt for it in the paperwork historians found), but, alas, the historians had found nothing about where those scrolls had gone afterwards. I've always thought the selection of an "official four Gospels" was strange - why select these particular 4 guys out of the, what, 12 original and 144 once-removed apostles, more of whom were writing their take on the story? - so, knowing there were other Gospel scrolls makes me glad that more than 4 out of 1.5 hundred people had been writing... even if it doesn't explain why only those four are "canonical".

[Awdz]

59 minutes ago, Snowwall said:

I've heard that there were scrolls of about a dozen extra Gospel versions brought in to one of the Russian queens (there's a receipt for it in the paperwork historians found), but, alas, the historians had found nothing about where those scrolls had gone afterwards. I've always thought the selection of an "official four Gospels" was strange - why select these particular 4 guys out of the, what, 12 original and 144 once-removed apostles, more of whom were writing their take on the story? - so, knowing there were other Gospel scrolls makes me glad that more than 4 out of 1.5 hundred people had been writing... even if it doesn't explain why only those four are "canonical".

There was a great deal of debate about it before those were selected. Essentially, by the end of the 1st century CE, there were people starting to deviate really badly from what the apostles proclaimed. This was compounded by scribes of the time "correcting" and combining similar copies of documents when multiple copies were in circulation. They did the best they could to look at the most widely circulated documents and determine what was most consistent with the original word.

 

Long story short, New Testament is essentially the most widely used writings of the apostles or those who worked directly with the living apostles. Later versions tend to be heretical in comparison with those.

 

There is also debate about translations, both into Greek/Latin and from Latin/Greek/Hebrew. KJV became a standard but its language is archaic now. I prefer something closer to the language I speak today so that I can understand what is being said better.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Awdz Bodkins

[Jamari]

 Every living entity is made  of energy. Take the physical host away, and the energy leaves. Trees, bugs, animals {which includes humans} all living things are only alive because of the energy that dwells in them. Where does that energy come from?.Light bulbs don't just light up by themselves. Take that thought and follow it back to the Beginning. Where does your electricity come from? The power company. Where do they get their power from? Wind. Where does the wind come from?  How does wind make energy? Everything goes back to the Original source. What made the explosion of the universe and all the galaxies and stars ? A huge explosion of energy .Everything goes back to One Original Source. I call The Source GOD. God created the earth and everything in it from His Divine Energy. 2000 years ago, during a lunar eclipse, when Venus shown brightly over Bethlehem, the miracle of the Divine Son was born. The date is never given. His face is never revealed. But the fact is, he WAS born in Bethlehem. God Gave us His Only Son and a book of instructions to live by. In my personal opinion it is the Bible. The Teacher, the book, and plenty of miracles. I don't know how much simpler it can get. I don't go to "church", I don't discuss my "personal preferences". I don't believe that ministers and pastors and priests or saints are above me or have any magical power to forgive my sins. They are just sinners like me.  But I will tell you this. There are things in the Bible that have been scientifically proven. "The Shroud of Turin New Evidence" on you tube by the Discovery Channel is impossible to disprove. All Jesus's wounds are exactly as described in the Bible. Yes time changed the Bible. Yes gospels were omitted over time. It's a Divine Book written by human beings. It's not perfect. However I have done some fact checking and there are plenty of logical explanations for things that went down in the Bible. God knows our hearts. We are his children. He understands that we are not perfect. Everything is not black and white. 

Edited January 8, 2023 by Chusi