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Trading Hub – Protection for eggs and hatchlings in public trades

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30 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

I'm sorry, this is just simply untrue. Hiding your scroll doesn't help if *anyone* has the code. I already stated that hatcheries are not the only issue here: A 2-second Google search for 'url auto refresher' will give dozens of different non-hatchery sites to use if you know the url of the dragon (which, if it's a public trade, is out there for anyone to see). You don't need a hatchery, don't need to be logged into DC, in order to viewbomb. And hiding your scroll only makes the *scroll* invisible, it doesn't make all view-pages invisible.  (For reference, I *just* tested it, my scroll is hidden as I post this and I can still add the urls of my eggs into auto-refresher sites and give them views that way.) (And, as I already mentioned, the whole UV-cap thing doesn't actually help unless the dragon in question has very few stats at all. I can easily make an egg sick on my own with an auto-refresher because it already has a few dozen UVs.)

 

Where do you think UVs come from?? 

Continuously accumulating UVs comes from... Hatcheries. Eggs don't gain views from people clicking on your egg in the hub (they do if people go to your scroll and then click the egg). Go click a hub trade, then the egg, then refresh, notice the stats won't change. That's why things can sit on the hub for days at 1/1/1. So this just tells me that you've already got your eggs in hatcheries when you post them on the hub, in which case... Yeah, you're letting people do this to you lol. But if you post a fresh egg, no hatcheries, on the hub and you hide your scroll, the most anyone can do is add it to the ONE hatchery that allows codes and AR it.... And it likely won't get sick, or can be easily removed if you notice this happening (and you won't have to go hunting down which hatchery or hatcheries it was added to, since you know it's just the one).

 

I am not condoning targeted viewbombing in any capacity nor am I saying it isn't an issue. But I am saying that there are ways to protect your yourself against it, and I don't think sickness is the strongest argument supporting this suggestion, as this just negates part of his reasoning for keeping sickness. Especially because the ultimate response to "my egg is sick from trading it" is "take down your trade, ward it, and repost or fog it for a bit" and/or "hide your scroll," which is all inconvenient but doesn't stop you entirely from trading it, just for a time. This makes dealing with that easier, but not a necessity.

 

Meanwhile if someone else makes your hatchling grow unwarranted, then you're screwed. No more trading that thing lol 

Edited by schenanigans

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32 minutes ago, schenanigans said:

But if you post a fresh egg, no hatcheries, on the hub and you hide your scroll, the most anyone can do is add it to the ONE hatchery that allows codes and AR it.... And it likely won't get sick, or can be easily removed if you notice this happening (and you won't have to go hunting down which hatchery or hatcheries it was added to, since you know it's just the one).

This isn't actually true. Someone with enough understanding of the game's mechanics and a little imagination can get any dragon V/UV/C without using a single hatchery or giving the owner any recourse aside from fogging the egg. I won't go into detail for obvious reasons, but I did something similar to myself a couple of times back in the day just to see how many stats I could get on something. The click count on this one's a pretty decent example: https://dragcave.net/lineage/0TDWG Even back in 2011 when prizes were new and exciting, you wouldn't have gotten that kind of click count via hatcheries.

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45 minutes ago, AGYK said:

This isn't actually true. Someone with enough understanding of the game's mechanics and a little imagination can get any dragon V/UV/C without using a single hatchery or giving the owner any recourse aside from fogging the egg. I won't go into detail for obvious reasons, but I did something similar to myself a couple of times back in the day just to see how many stats I could get on something. The click count on this one's a pretty decent example: https://dragcave.net/lineage/0TDWG Even back in 2011 when prizes were new and exciting, you wouldn't have gotten that kind of click count via hatcheries.

 

I have a hard time believing anyone here is getting griefed and viewbombed to that level on any regular basis. And if they are, that issue far transcends this thread. 

 

I'm done arguing the semantics of protecting yourself against viewbombing. There are plenty of options to protect yourself, it's not up to TJ to implement things because people prefer not to use what he has already given, barring him getting rid of sickness completely. I don't see him implementing something such as this when it contradicts part of how sickness works (posting anything publicly, knowing you're putting it where others have access, especially when it is too young). This is why I don't think it prudent to stick to the sickness argument, and I actually think it harms this suggestion. 

 

I'm just going to drop this here. No support if this affects all teleports without choice. I'm iffy on the optional toggle idea but I'll take that over nothing, but would much prefer this affecting ONLY hub posted trades. I do support this in the sense that I don't think it's right for someone else to have control over my critters' growth stages. 

Edited by schenanigans

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I also would not support this if it affected all trades without choice, that was why I was so specific about it. But I really like the alternative schenanigans suggested of only restricting views on public trades. Transfers and private two way trades are only shared with specific people, so that should not be a problem. I think this is an even better idea, and might have a better chance of being implemented since TJ was never a fan of making everything customizable/optional. 

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12 hours ago, schenanigans said:

I'm only aware of 2 DC specific* auto refreshers personally and of those, one of them only allows ER egg/hatchling codes to be input for it to even work. Granted, you only need one AR to blast an egg. If you're concerned about a trade being targeted, hiding your scroll absolutely will work.

 

I USE an autofrefresher to blast my own stuff at times. It is not DC specific and the speed with which you can get views is phenomenal. And you do only need the code.

 

9 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

I'm sorry, this is just simply untrue. Hiding your scroll doesn't help if *anyone* has the code.

 

Exactly this. If a growing thing is up for trade, it has to be visible;' if it is visible it is easy to blitz with views.

 

9 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

I already stated that hatcheries are not the only issue here: A 2-second Google search for 'url auto refresher' will give dozens of different non-hatchery sites to use if you know the url of the dragon (which, if it's a public trade, is out there for anyone to see). You don't need a hatchery, don't need to be logged into DC, in order to viewbomb. And hiding your scroll only makes the *scroll* invisible, it doesn't make all view-pages invisible.  (For reference, I *just* tested it, my scroll is hidden as I post this and I can still add the urls of my eggs into auto-refresher sites and give them views that way.) (And, as I already mentioned, the whole UV-cap thing doesn't actually help unless the dragon in question has very few stats at all. I can easily make an egg sick on my own with an auto-refresher because it already has a few dozen UVs.)

This is all totally true.

 

9 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

Yes, many people want sickness to just be done away with altogether, but acting like this isn't an issue just because you would rather a more extreme suggestion be implemented isn't very productive. TJ has already shot down the idea of removing sickness, many times, over the years. Asking for something to be implemented that would at least *help* while keeping the sickness mechanic is a good idea. 

 

I'm fine with sickness not being done away with. But we need to be able to protect things in trades.

 

@schenanigans If you don't want to use this, you don't have to. But many of us very much see. a need for it - and sure, optional is fine. As the OP pointed out - this thread exists precisely because they were bombed when they had a trade up. It has happened to me too. And it does also happen to trades in threads here. Especially - here and in the hub - when you reject an offer.

     

 

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Personally I don’t support, but in a fairly neutral way. Not so much because I think having additional avenues to protect your dragons when they’re most vulnerable is bad, but more because I don’t really care for the proposed solutions at this time.


I think a blanket approach, like making all trades or even just public trades protected, ignores the fact that there might legitimately be times where you’d want the other option available to you. Also, I feel like this might encourage people to use the hub as a place to “hold” their eggs that they don’t actually plan on trading but want something more effective than ward (This is with the understanding that fog is available. Perhaps one wants a dragon they can effectively fog while also being able to show it off? I know I’d like that). And what would you do if someone were to just…report your trade then viewbomb you after?

 

 On the other hand, I don’t like the toggle approach because that feels like unnecessary extra baggage. We do have tools in place to protect our dragons, and while cumbersome we can still protect our dragons to some degree when we put them up for trade. Do I think it should remain cumbersome? Absolutely not. But there are ways to have dragons “safely” available for public trade (at the moment, having a screen cap of the lineage and posting that in the trade threads or on discord are both possible. It’s not a perfect solution, but it is available.). On top of that, my concerns about the blanket option still apply for the toggle option.

 

If I were to make a suggestion, and this might be a bit of a stretch, but perhaps if being in a public trade merely effected the growth of a dragon less (say you get 30 UVs but on the back end they’re treated like 15), that might be something? Although again I feel it might encourage people to utilize the trade hub as a place to hold their dragons they want to protect.

 

Apologies for the novel but I thought I’d throw my two cents in there.

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1 hour ago, Rosastrasza said:

On the other hand, I don’t like the toggle approach because that feels like unnecessary extra baggage. We do have tools in place to protect our dragons, and while cumbersome we can still protect our dragons to some degree when we put them up for trade. Do I think it should remain cumbersome? Absolutely not. But there are ways to have dragons “safely” available for public trade (at the moment, having a screen cap of the lineage and posting that in the trade threads or on discord are both possible. It’s not a perfect solution, but it is available.).

 

You can't do that in the hub.

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12 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

You can't do that in the hub.

 

Exactly. This suggestion is specifically about the trading hub, not using other places to conduct your trades. And not everyone who plays DC has access to the forums or a chat service like discord, but everyone who plays DC does have access to the hub. 

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Literally nothing would stop people from posting the egg/hatchling on the hub with no description or even "offers" (with no intent to accept anything). Nothing at all - in fact it already happens! And it would only get worse if incentivized. Those are actually very valid points by Rosa. It would be easily abusable. It circumvents the "no sickness" thing while also having detrimental effects on the hub. 

 

ETA: again, there are other tools for trading. We used the forums only for a very long time. It is no one else's fault but yours if you do not wish to take advantage of opportunities provided. The forums and discord are already open to everyone, they are not closed communities. 

Edited by schenanigans

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TJ himself invented the hub. It's absolutely one of the best ways to trade. I thank him (in my head !) frequently. It's a shame if it is to become at times  unusable for anyone who gets targeted. I managed to contact someone on forum who had listed a want, and trade the gold egg I had up there after it was bombed, so I did get a trade - but otherwise that would have been a nice egg gone to waste. I shouldn't have had to do that. With this suggestion, I needn't have.

 

As long as it's optional - I didn't think you minded this idea ?

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I stated - multiple times now - that I don't like the idea of optional/toggleable.

 

I originally stated was I was neutral/okay with some things, but Rosastrasza has some very good points. I'm still neutral/okay with some specifics, but I think this suggestion needs to be seriously reconsidered and adjusted before TJ would even consider. I would love something that can prevent other people from having power over when my creatures hatch or grow; but I'm not sold on this solution.

 

Once again: if sickness exists and TJ has no intention of getting rid of it, why would he implement something that completely negates that mechanic altogether? The tradeoff to stop views is hiding; ward is just an added security measure that doesn't prevent sickness and is not guaranteed to prevent death after the 6 hours wears off. I sincerely don't think he will implement something that allows us to publicly post an egg/hatchling (for anyone at all to see) and also prevent views altogether and thus prevent sickness completely. There is no balance to that. At that point he actually might as well remove sickness lol

Edited by schenanigans

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First thing coming to mind when I read this - if this feature does get implemented, optional or not, I will definitely be utilizing it as a without-fogball fogging option, for either safety reason or for making my zb and nd-making life easier (by being able to see the sprites and not mix up things I hide because I toss them into hatcheries too soon vs things I actually need to hide for experimental purpose). It would even make it easier for me to check the time remaining on my eggs and hatchlings. I will not care if trade hub become filled with such teleports where the owner is simply using the trade option to "hide" the creature and have no intention of actually trading. Some people might have an issue with that.

 

I personally don't care if this get implemented in terms of protecting things in trade (mostly because I dont trade anyways), but I can see why people want this feature. While avoiding sickness and viewbombing might seem easy and straightforward to some people, including myself, I understand that it's not the same case for everyone and I have heard a lot of people who lose an egg because they've posted on trade hub. I am, however, not sure if a toggle that stops the creatures in trade from gaining any view despite maybe still being in hatcheries and being able to be clicked and have their info page viewed is a good option.

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@schenanigans How do you suggest being able to trade safely in the hub without risking viewbombing ? I'm open to any suggestions that would help with that. I already hide my scroll when trading so that with luck only one or two things will be affected, but that won't do it for the item/s in trade, and we can't ward hatchies (I do stun any hatchie I am trading, but still...)

 

For the record, though: from a post of yours: 

which was a response to:

 

23 hours ago, AGYK said:

Depends on your scenario. I had a couple of attempts to target very low time Halloween trades. There, the aim wasn't to get the trades sick but to grow them up before the trades could go through. My scroll was hidden throughout, but any traffic was a problem due to how low time the trades were, so even one hatchery was one too many.

 

I support the suggestion as long as it's optional; as others have noted, putting a hard "no views on things in trades ever" would ruin ND making.

 

 

 

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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37 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

@schenanigans How do you suggest being able to trade safely in the hub without risking viewbombing ? I'm open to any suggestions that would help with that. I already hide my scroll when trading so that with luck only one or two things will be affected, but that won't do it for the item/s in trade, and we can't ward hatchies (I do stun any hatchie I am trading, but still..

 

Are every single one of your trades being targeted?? I don't know what people are doing to be constantly getting targeted by viewbombers, I legitimately don't lol

I would find one person getting specifically targeted on the hub for most/every one of their trades to be far out of the norm, and while I'm sorry at the possibility & suffering, one person's gameplay isn't worth the balance of the game. Using the forums (and/or discord) to trade via private 2 ways or screenshots are you safest bet at that point. Otherwise just dealing with the cycle of taking a trade down to fog and/or ward 🤷‍♀️

 

But as Moriaty highlights this would just make the hub easy to use for other benefits, and hinder the functionality of what the hub is intended for, which is trading. 

 

If you post your egg anywhere publicly at all, trading or not, it's open to being targeted. That's just the nature of how this game functions at the core, unless sickness goes the way of the dodo. 

 

Also I don't understand why you linked to one of my posts. 

Edited by schenanigans

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I have often wished for a way to protect things I have in the Hub. I have had several trades ruined by viewbombers targeting eggs that are up for trade.

Having your scroll hidden is not sufficient. In a public trade both the egg/hatchling's code and your scroll name are visible. That is more than enough info for a determined viewbomber.

 

On 11/21/2021 at 2:45 PM, HeatherMarie said:

Much support, always support. There has been threads for this before but I can't seem to find them to post links.

 

On 11/21/2021 at 3:17 PM, 0x08 said:

I made sure to check this subforum for similar threads before I posted, but couldn't find any.

 

https://forums.dragcave.net/topic/153851-fog-while-in-teleport/?tab=comments#comment-7635151

https://forums.dragcave.net/topic/183466-teleport-option-invisibility/?tab=comments#comment-9739007

https://forums.dragcave.net/topic/185122-prevent-items-in-trade-from-gaining-views/

https://forums.dragcave.net/topic/185151-bsa-suggestion-bodyguardescort/

 

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@0x08 I don't think so. All the threads address the same problem, but they come up with different solutions. It's up to a mod if this is too similar to something else. (Of the ones that I linked to only the Invisibility suggestion is similar to yours, and it's not exactly the same; the others offer different ideas.) I just linked them for information so people could see what others ideas have come up. Also to show how prevalent this problem is since so many people have been coming up with ways to address it for so long. I do like your suggestion since it seems simple and flexible.

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12 hours ago, schenanigans said:

Also I don't understand why you linked to one of my posts. 

 

Because that was where you said being optional was 

 

Quote

the aspect I am talking about that makes me okay with this suggestion.

 

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2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Because that was where you said being optional was 

 

No, I was specifically responding to the part where they were talking about their low time Halloween trades being targeted. Hence why I clarified what I was referring to when I was talking about hiding a scroll in the second sentence of that post. 

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On 11/22/2021 at 2:57 PM, 0x08 said:

@UnicornMaiden I had only searched for the word trade in titles and completely missed those threads. Should this thread be closed / hidden?

 

On 11/22/2021 at 3:13 PM, UnicornMaiden said:

@0x08 I don't think so. All the threads address the same problem, but they come up with different solutions. It's up to a mod if this is too similar to something else. (Of the ones that I linked to only the Invisibility suggestion is similar to yours, and it's not exactly the same; the others offer different ideas.) I just linked them for information so people could see what others ideas have come up. Also to show how prevalent this problem is since so many people have been coming up with ways to address it for so long. I do like your suggestion since it seems simple and flexible.

 

I agree, which is why this should remain open. The end goal is the same, but the roads proposed to get there are different. @UnicornMaiden thank you for the links to the other threads, in case anyone wanted to chime in there and now they don't have to dig to find them. 

 

Please continue the discussion.

 

I would love this since it would be optional. Full support here.

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On 11/23/2021 at 2:08 PM, schenanigans said:

 

No, I was specifically responding to the part where they were talking about their low time Halloween trades being targeted. Hence why I clarified what I was referring to when I was talking about hiding a scroll in the second sentence of that post. 

 

OK  ☮️- I have to say that was easily misconstrued.

 

3 hours ago, purpledragonclaw said:

 

 

I agree, which is why this should remain open. The end goal is the same, but the roads proposed to get there are different. @UnicornMaiden thank you for the links to the other threads, in case anyone wanted to chime in there and now they don't have to dig to find them. 

 

Please continue the discussion.

 

I would love this since it would be optional. Full support here.

 

Thanks PDC.

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On 11/21/2021 at 4:03 AM, 0x08 said:

 

The current state of the Trading Hub makes it easy for griefers to be disruptive by adding traders' scrolls to multiple hatcheries, which results in sick or dead creatures if left unchecked.

 

Given the above, I ask that some form of protection for creatures in the Trading Hub be implemented.

Automatic suspension of views for creatures that are up for trade sounds like the most straightforward and unobtrusive way to do it. Individual traders could also choose whether to have the "stop" active or not; it would be totally optional and apply only to hub (public) trades.

 

Here is a mockup.

  Hide contents

mockup.thumb.png.b367322b4f90b49bb66be35899cdfee8.png

The added section states:

Trade protection – Suspend views for this trade – The eggs or hatchlings in this trade will not receive views or clicks if this option is checked.

 

Feel free to share your thoughts and objections about this suggestion. :)


First, I ask anyone in this thread: Please do not quote my posts in this thread, as I may remove them shortly.  If you want to quote, please copy or quote without using my name. 
 

I fully support this.  It makes it optional, is brilliant, and gives all traders control over whether their traded items will receive views.

 

I believe there are many more victims of viewbombing than the few that publicly mention it, because by publicly mentioning it, one can become a target themselves, or if already a target, can provide satisfaction to the viewbomber.

 

(Off-topic: I personally wish that all hatcheries would require log-ins; there is such a suggestion and will look for it. It isn’t cumbersome at all; Evina’s uses it and I am auto logged in every time. Maybe once every few weeks I have to login again, which takes a couple of seconds.)
 

On-topic: I am tired of having to hide my scroll and other shenanigans simply to trade or to prevent others from wrecking my growing dragons. I recently had the cutest chicken. It had super low views and a lot of clicks, and I was so pleased. Then it was viewbombed and while it survived, it had many more views than I wanted it to. I was hoping it would be the lowest number of views ever for one of my chickens. I am tired of having to hide my scroll because when I trade, inevitably I find my dragons, all of them, have been added to every hatchery in existence, including one that I have to contact the owner every single time to remove my growing things because for some reason there is a bug in that hatchery and I am not able to remove them myself.

 

Hiding my scroll is the antithesis of this game.  I have a special group on my main scroll page that tells people how to contact me on the forum.  Ironically, for the purposes of this conversation, no one in the Trading Hub can see that group when my scroll is hidden.  (I know they could see it if I give them a link in my trading post, but there is never room for me to do that.  So please don’t suggest that.  What I mean is people who naturally go to someone’s scroll to check out their dragons, and there they happen to find a way to contact me.)  I enjoy sharing my scroll with people because sometimes it gives them ideas of what I might like in a trade.  I also enjoy sharing my dragons with people.  I want them to be able to view my dragons.  All of this becomes impossible with having to hide my scroll and be ever vigilant and anxious just because one is trying to trade either here on the forums or on the trading hub.  Part of the game that is basic is sharing our scrolls with others if we choose and allowing others to peruse our dragon collection.  Likewise, I like having my scroll name appear on the dragons I have bred. I am proud of the dragons that I breed.  But I have been removing it because of these fears.  So I become just another anonymous dragon breeder.  Especially because my scroll name is not the same as my forum name.

 

I do not do Discord, and never will.  The idea of having to take a screenshot of a lineage for a trade, in order to protect the growing dragon, is ludicrous.  No one should have to go to such extremes to avoid having their growing eggs and hatchlings disrupted.  TJ may have meant to have sickness in the game, but I’m pretty sure he never meant for viewbombing to take such a toll on so many players.

 

I fully, 100% support this along with any other measures to prevent anyone but ourselves from adding dragons to places to get views.  It should be as much under the player’s control as possible. That does not get rid of sickness, but it does allow a player to control the views that their dragons receive.

 

Again, I request that you kindly:  Please do not quote my posts in this thread, as I may remove them.  You can copy the text but don’t quote my name or use my name. Thanks.
 

Please feel free to discuss, just not directly quote. Thanks.

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