2021-08-22 - August Dragon Release

[Myoukin]

5 minutes ago, XDLugia said:

 

I believe we still need to wait until tomorrow. That's when the forced adults should be able to have a second breeding.

 

4 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

Not until people start doing second breedings, I think that should start in the next day or two? I believe the first breeding data started around the 26th or 27th, which means second breedings can't take place until tomorrow or so.'

edit: Looks like the first posted breeding-results were late evening the 25th, so it's possible we'll see second-breedings starting late evening tonight.

It makes sense given a bred baby takes about six days to grow up if it's incubated and breeding has a seven day cooldown; I just wasn't sure what the itinerary was for the ones that were bred as soon as the option was available since I held off on mine until more results came out.

[Fyrebird]

7 hours ago, Meh said:

This makes no sense though, because "young hatchlings are often first set aflame by their parents. " and since their parents have both X color (or no flame),  by what kind of miracle the offspring got the orange flame when none of its parents could possibly give it while the description says bluntly that its the parents who first set the offspring aflame? 

Maybe because these are not wild dragons being raised by the parents, but "ranch" dragons being raised by... us, with little to no parent involvement. The hatchling description says they want to jump into the fire; maybe they're all being set alight by our campfires and not by adult dragons. That would explain why they're all orange to start with.

 

Edit: I see I was ninja'd by the artist, but at least I got it right that the hatchlings are set alight by fire.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Fyrebird

[purplehaze]

@Dohaerys Thanks for sharing the reasoning behind some of the aspects of Pyropellis that didn't seem to make much sense. It is always good to hear from the creators about their vision for the creatures.

[Shokomon]

10 hours ago, Dohaerys said:

Do keep in mind, the hatchling descriptions. The s1 keeps trying to jump into flames.

When the s2 is on fire, one could assume that the s1 has finally succeeded and jumped into flames, setting itself on fire. In a world of fire breathing dragons, it would not take long for you to find something that’s on regular fire somewhere… Though, admittedly, I do see how this is really vague currently with the current hatchling descriptions...

 

Also, I’ve seen people discuss the pyropellis breathing fire, which they are unable to, as it says in their description “unable to produce their own flame” - which is why they have sort of have the adopt other dragons’ flames

 

Regarding “why X water-aligned dragon doesn’t make them bald”: when deciding mates, I decided to go by only the sprites, not what a description might suggest, as sprites are the most solid representation of a dragon.  The water extinguishes the flames of a pyropellis, because there is water explicitly within the water dragon sprite, and as such the pyropellis, in its current form, would have to make contact with that water in the water dragon’s sprite. Other purely aquatic dragons don’t show water within their sprites, and would make it really confusing if anything but explicit water in a sprite were used: for examples, would Xols ignite or extinguish a pyropellis? What about Aranoas which are amphibious?

It’s for similar reasons that the spitfires don’t change flame color: they might breathe blue fire, yes, but if we assume the spitfire sprite is mating with the pyropellis sprite, the spitfire would have to actively choose to breathe fire, to change the pyropellis’ color. And why would it choose to randomly breathe fire while mating? For similar reasons, as almost everyone at this point has figured out, explicit flames within a sprite are better clues

Lastly amarignis flames don’t change pyropellis flame color, because myself and the other spriter of the amarignis both agreed that they are not flames in the conventional sense but rather magic manifesting itself to resemble flames.

 

hopefully that clears some lore confusion up for these guys!

Thank you very much! It does clarify a lot. I'm still sad about Spitfire, but it's understandable now. 

 

Though... with Water Walkers, you can see them stepping on water.

They are probably the only other dragon sprite that has water in it. Wouldn't they also make bald Pyropellis based on your description? 

 

Edit: And did anyone test the Female Astaarus again? Because earlier in the thread breeding didn't change the Pyropellis, like with female Hellfires, but they were fixed later on. Astaarus females definitely have blue fires so... Unless it's not fire?

Also, I didn't say this yet, but thank you TJ and spriters for the lovely dragons! 

Now I have a reason to use the Kill button. I never needed to before. 

 

Edit2:

So I have tried Earthquake to get the skittish Shumoga (and a few green cantos), and once again, I am unsuccessful.

At least I got a green canto out of it, even if I lost the other one...

 

And now to try if the Kill options...

And now I'm very sad.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Shokomon

[dod59]

Can we expect additional future releases that disregard world-building/lore? This is a very interesting decision and I look forward to seeing how this may impact gameplay, dragon descriptions, and sprite design from here on out. 

[Silverwatermist]

44 minutes ago, Shokomon said:

Thank you very much! It does clarify a lot. I'm still sad about Spitfire, but it's understandable now. 

 

Though... with Water Walkers, you can see them stepping on water.

They are probably the only other dragon sprite that has water in it. Wouldn't they also make bald Pyropellis based on your description? 

 

Edit: And did anyone test the Female Astaarus again? Because earlier in the thread breeding didn't change the Pyropellis, like with female Hellfires, but they were fixed later on. Astaarus females definitely have blue fires so... Unless it's not fire?

Also, I didn't say this yet, but thank you TJ and spriters for the lovely dragons! 

Now I have a reason to use the Kill button. I never needed to before. 

I was thinking about the Water Walkers, as well! I began wondering earlier if the mechanic had to do with Water Dragons actually having water in their sprites since many (all?) of the dragons that change the flame colors for the Pyropellis have visible fire in their sprites. So, I wonder if the difference is that the Water Dragon's description says adults can't survive at all on land, whereas Water Walkers say "They spend the majority of their lives on the water" but it implies they can move away from it, too, and are mostly standing atop the water rather than in it? (Sorry if this has been addressed elsewhere. My apologies if I missed anything.)

I like the idea of basing the ability to create a "bald" sprite on if actual water is visible in the sprite, but if descriptions count too (and therefore discounted the Water Walker), then I feel odd that the Deep Sea Dragon doesn't also make the "bald" sprite? I was just reviewing its description on the wiki, and it seems that even when they travel to shallow waters, they don't go anywhere near the shore. It says they spend "most of their time in the dark depths of the sea", but nothing about going on land, just that they occasionally go to those shallower waters. So I guess a Pyropellis that has a Deep Sea mate wears a fire-proof shower cap while they swim together so it can maintain its hairstyle 😂

[Lagie]

On 8/30/2021 at 12:01 AM, Fyrebird said:

~~ Trumpet fanfare! ~~

We've officially tested every dragon out there against the pyropellis, except for the alternate colors of pyropellis itself. As expected, there are no new additions to the list of dragons that change the colors.

• unlit/bald: breed with water dragon (the specific breed, not any water element) 
• green: breed with copper (any), exalted pitfire, arcana, or magi
• cyan/light blue: breed with red fire gem, female hellfire, female hell horse
• indigo/dark blue: breed with brimstone, carina, falconiform
• purple: breed with green fire gem, omen wyrm

Next week, we check secondary breedings! Then we'll find out if the "no change" are really that, or if they will change them back to orange (or possibly some of each!), and whether pyropellises with different flame colors affect each other.

 

On 8/28/2021 at 2:44 PM, Shokomon said:

My list and @Dinala1641882 's spreadsheet below. It is a complete list of known dragon breeding results. My lists are more specific to my own thoughts.

- Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Qg3Ef_XwycPQk_7bRbvzEQZgWX1Es1ZAe8NTC35fbFE/edit#gid=0 

Bringing this info forward as it's now pages back.

[helix9]

Interesting note about the Pyropellis breeding, I tried to breed one of my pyropellis females to a green fire gem male which is confirmed purples flames. However, because of a refusal the fire color change didn't occur. Smart move there, since the description is that they won't even go near each other.

[Switch]

10 hours ago, Dohaerys said:

Do keep in mind, the hatchling descriptions. The s1 keeps trying to jump into flames.

When the s2 is on fire, one could assume that the s1 has finally succeeded and jumped into flames, setting itself on fire. In a world of fire breathing dragons, it would not take long for you to find something that’s on regular fire somewhere… Though, admittedly, I do see how this is really vague currently with the current hatchling descriptions...

 

Also, I’ve seen people discuss the pyropellis breathing fire, which they are unable to, as it says in their description “unable to produce their own flame” - which is why they have sort of have the adopt other dragons’ flames

 

Regarding “why X water-aligned dragon doesn’t make them bald”: when deciding mates, I decided to go by only the sprites, not what a description might suggest, as sprites are the most solid representation of a dragon.  The water extinguishes the flames of a pyropellis, because there is water explicitly within the water dragon sprite, and as such the pyropellis, in its current form, would have to make contact with that water in the water dragon’s sprite. Other purely aquatic dragons don’t show water within their sprites, and would make it really confusing if anything but explicit water in a sprite were used: for examples, would Xols ignite or extinguish a pyropellis? What about Aranoas which are amphibious?

It’s for similar reasons that the spitfires don’t change flame color: they might breathe blue fire, yes, but if we assume the spitfire sprite is mating with the pyropellis sprite, the spitfire would have to actively choose to breathe fire, to change the pyropellis’ color. And why would it choose to randomly breathe fire while mating? For similar reasons, as almost everyone at this point has figured out, explicit flames within a sprite are better clues

Lastly amarignis flames don’t change pyropellis flame color, because myself and the other spriter of the amarignis both agreed that they are not flames in the conventional sense but rather magic manifesting itself to resemble flames.

 

hopefully that clears some lore confusion up for these guys!

I would argue the fact that this mechanic has had to be explained offsite after being widely questioned about kind of constitutes a failure to make it not confusing anyway. Based on discussion, I’m not sure how many people would come to the “Oh, it’s because they’re the only dragons with water in their sprite” conclusion on their own. Especially since the “water in the sprite” rule appears to be inconsistent at first based on water-walkers being exempt— is it actually because they’re not submerged in the water even though water is explicitly visible, or was that an oversight? In any case, amphibians like water-walkers and aranoas as you mentioned would tend to have moist/mucosal skin, so I don’t believe these species extinguishing them would be confusing.
And, yeah, this does maybe unintentionally set a bit of a confusing precedent regarding how much liberty new dragon species have to actively ignore lore like this. Especially since you could kind of go down a rabbit hole arguing about what other core parts of dragons aren’t technically represented in the sprite. I would argue dragon descriptions (and names) are as much a part of the dragons as their sprites are, not sprites > descriptions unless something blatantly contradicts each other. If anything, you get more information about them from descs than sprites. 
I don’t know, I just find it... odd that species like deep sea dragons, who even if you don’t count their descriptions, are unambiguously a deep-ocean dwelling species based on their name and design now don’t count as.... “watery” enough because their spriter didn’t have the foresight to include visible water in their sprite a decade ago.

[Dohaerys]

well water walkers aren't strictly aquatic, hence no change... as for the astaarus, they actually weren't released when I came up with these guys and I forgot about their flames until now so... oops

 

Also this is not really "disregarding" lore - it is simply my interpretation of it, which might not match yours, which is not really my problem. I am also a very, very casual player of the game (I still don't have every breed yet after 3 years and only play when new releases occur), so it is also a factor that I simply didn't have the time or will to comb through every description of every dragon to look for details while deciding mechanics... do keep in mind, I am making art voluntarily for the site, and as such there is only so much effort that I will go through when making a concept. Ultimately, it was TJ's choice to release them, and he clearly thought they fit the lore enough??

Besides, I think these are very nit-picky details that really do not take away from the concept and overall feel of the dragon- which has functional mechanics that are working as intended- which is ultimately the most important factor, so I am not concerned.

 

If you really think this a really crucial detail, you can feel free to make a suggestions thread!

Edited September 2, 2021 by Dohaerys

[Shokomon]

2 minutes ago, Dohaerys said:

well water walkers aren't strictly aquatic, hence no change... as for the astaarus, they actually weren't released when I came up with these guys and I forgot about their flames until now so... oops

So for dragons to make bald pyropellis, the mate must be fully aquatic and have water in the sprite. Got it.

 

Also, lol. That happened my descriptions for the Sabertooth Bulldrakes, so it's not just you. Hopefully, it can be fixed now that we are aware.

 

[Tini]

28 minutes ago, Dohaerys said:

well water walkers aren't strictly aquatic, hence no change... as for the astaarus, they actually weren't released when I came up with these guys and I forgot about their flames until now so... oops

So you're saying there's a chance for a beautiful pyro/astaa line.

[Tehpikachu]

33 minutes ago, Dohaerys said:

well water walkers aren't strictly aquatic, hence no change... as for the astaarus, they actually weren't released when I came up with these guys and I forgot about their flames until now so... oops

 

Also this is not really "disregarding" lore - it is simply my interpretation of it, which might not match yours, which is not really my problem. I am also a very, very casual player of the game (I still don't have every breed yet after 3 years and only play when new releases occur), so it is also a factor that I simply didn't have the time or will to comb through every description of every dragon to look for details while deciding mechanics... do keep in mind, I am making art voluntarily for the site, and as such there is only so much effort that I will go through when making a concept. Ultimately, it was TJ's choice to release them, and he clearly thought they fit the lore enough??

Besides, I think these are very nit-picky details that really do not take away from the concept and overall feel of the dragon- which has functional mechanics that are working as intended- which is ultimately the most important factor, so I am not concerned.

 

If you really think this a really crucial detail, you can feel free to make a suggestions thread!

I do understand that this is largely a volunteer effort on the part of the artists, and that's great! I think it's great that the art here is held to a standard of quality, but the phrase "We're just doing this for free" gets thrown around a lot in response to user criticism, and I don't think that's very fair to them in this case. Sometimes there is a lot of criticism that is, for lack of better words, somewhat entitled. The current truth of the matter is that the dragons have been added to the game as they are, but as we've seen in past, there's always room for change and improvement, and I believe taking into consideration information about a dragon is important to the immersion into the game's world. Dragons are more than the sum of their sprites, after all. If a request thread does open to expand the number of breeds that change the color like you encourage, I will be in full support of it. The admission that you don't look very hard into the concepts of many other dragons when making new ones that rely on those existing concepts is somewhat disappointing because I feel that it doesn't add very much to the world that's been built. I'm not sure how much communication between currently-active spriters there is in the realm of cross-referencing lore elements, and that's something I really can't ever fully know.

 

But, yeah, I love the dragons! Ultimately, that's why I wish there was more to play with here. The mechanic works, and I'm excited to collect enough of them to get all the colors.

[schenanigans]

If it didn't fit within the lore then TJ wouldn't release it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ This is a wholely unique mechanic. People would have been disappointed with too many pairing possibilities (difficulty to create a lineage). Can't make everyone happy. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by schenanigans

[Tehpikachu]

I'm not really asking to make everyone happy or anything, I just personally think it would add more to the site : ( I also didn't say it didn't fit the lore, just that I feel it's lacking in features. Also, people LOVE lots of lineage possibilities! That's a lot of playing the game for people. I really like the colors, myself.

[schenanigans]

1 minute ago, Tehpikachu said:

I'm not really asking to make everyone happy or anything, I just personally think it would add more to the site : ( I also didn't say it didn't fit the lore, just that I feel it's lacking in features. Also, people LOVE lots of lineage possibilities! That's a lot of playing the game for people. I really like the colors, myself.

 

If they released as just an orange fire, single sprite dragon we wouldn't even be having this conversation; everyone would just be "ooh, pretty dragon!" The fact that there's disappointment because there isn't more for something new is... interesting. 

Also, I was speaking to the previous lore disparity discussion. Hence why I didn't quote you. 

[Kaini]

I feel I need to drop a reminder that the first rule of the forum is to respect others, including volunteer 'staff'.

 

Personal preference is just that, personal preference. One is allowed to be disappointed, but pushing a personal disappointment onto the artists is a great way to encourage them not to contribute their time and effort into the site in the future, and is simply unkind.

 

[Switch]

44 minutes ago, schenanigans said:

 

If they released as just an orange fire, single sprite dragon we wouldn't even be having this conversation; everyone would just be "ooh, pretty dragon!" The fact that there's disappointment because there isn't more for something new is... interesting. 

Also, I was speaking to the previous lore disparity discussion. Hence why I didn't quote you. 

Well, yes, if it was decided not to implement this breeding mechanic at all, then we naturally wouldn’t be having this discussion. But the mechanic was chosen for implementation on site, so there is room for further discussion over whether it is consistent with the rest of the site or should be made less limited. The fact that the mechanic was implemented as-is by TJ doesn’t inherently mean there’s no room to improve it or that nothing is off about it, we’ve seen that play out many times with site features.

In any case, I will admit that I assume but I don’t exactly know if increasing the amount of species that extinguish the dragon would be as simple as setting flags or not, but this conversation doesn’t amount to “unreasonable personal disappointment over not getting even more content” so much as “recognizing that a mechanic is almost definitely inconsistent with the previously established rules/lore of the site itself” and thinking that’s maybe worthy of being addressed further. I’m certainly not asking for even more new variations of it to be made, I’m only talking about what already exists.

It kind of stops just being down to “one person’s personal interpretation vs another” when it’s an ingame mechanic that interacts with and therefore has implications on other dragon species, intentionally or not. But I know these sorts of things take time, of course, and yeah there probably will be more room for that in the suggestions area.

Edit: ugh, sorry about that font size. My bad.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Switch

[paradoxangel]

42 minutes ago, Kaini said:

I feel I need to drop a reminder that the first rule of the forum is to respect others, including volunteer 'staff'.

 

Personal preference is just that, personal preference. One is allowed to be disappointed, but pushing a personal disappointment onto the artists is a great way to encourage them not to contribute their time and effort into the site in the future, and is simply unkind.

 

 

I find this a really weird comment.  Do we as users not deserve the courtesy of having vetted and consistent mechanics in the game that don't require us to hunt down explanations to play, or deserve to voice when we find a new mechanic clunky for entirely valid reasons? I find it really odd that we constantly coddle volunteer content contributors; everyone who plays this game puts in a lot of time, and while I do very much appreciate spriters, artists and lore-makers, I don't find valid criticism of something we all dedicate time to- significant or not- to be disrespectful.  If one cannot handle a valid criticism of a mechanic- or be bothered to align their mechanic to an already massively existing system- then perhaps their time and effort should not be contributed. 

 

Every time this user base offers valid criticism the pushback is always 'criticism means we lose talent,' except spun to sound like everyone is a wild pack of hyenas coming for blood instead of a vocal group of individuals pointing out genuine concerns. 

[schenanigans]

23 minutes ago, Switch said:

In any case, I will admit that I assume but I don’t exactly know if increasing the amount of species that extinguish the dragon would be as simple as setting flags or not, but this conversation doesn’t amount to “unreasonable personal disappointment over not getting even more content” so much as “recognizing that a mechanic is almost definitely inconsistent with the previously established rules/lore of the site itself” and thinking that’s maybe worthy of being addressed further. I’m certainly not asking for even more new variations of it to be made, I’m only talking about what already exists.

 

It's only inconsistent with the mechanics that we have currently because of the fact that it is a new mechanic. Sprite affects sprite. That is what the spriter himself says is intended, and everything is working as he wished. Sure, personal preferences definitely have room for discussion, and should players feel the need to request more, then that is an opportunity available. However, that doesn't make this mechanic "incorrect". Just as we can argue that written lore represents a dragon whether it has flames in its sprite or not, we can also argue that written lore would work to the benefit of the Pyropellis as well, whether it's represented in the sprite or not. The spriter just chose this method to be the way it shows up for this breed. I just find it a bit disingenuous to go so far as to blame the spriter for blatant disregard of lore, as if the admin doesn't have overall say on what gets released. 

 

Personally I find visual representation to be far more intuitive than combing through encyclopedia information and descriptions hoping to not miss a tidbit. This doesn't REQUIRE anyone to go offsite; players themselves chose to do so for easy compilation. This is also by far not the most difficult mechanic to have been introduced to the site. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by schenanigans

[Dohaerys]

24 minutes ago, paradoxangel said:

 

I find this a really weird comment.  Do we as users not deserve the courtesy of having vetted and consistent mechanics in the game that don't require us to hunt down explanations to play, or deserve to voice when we find a new mechanic clunky for entirely valid reasons? I find it really odd that we constantly coddle volunteer content contributors; everyone who plays this game puts in a lot of time, and while I do very much appreciate spriters, artists and lore-makers, I don't find valid criticism of something we all dedicate time to- significant or not- to be disrespectful.  If one cannot handle a valid criticism of a mechanic- or be bothered to align their mechanic to an already massively existing system- then perhaps their time and effort should not be contributed. 

 

Every time this user base offers valid criticism the pushback is always 'criticism means we lose talent,' except spun to sound like everyone is a wild pack of hyenas coming for blood instead of a vocal group of individuals pointing out genuine concerns. 

the difference is that volunteer-contributors are crucial to the game's survival: without them there would be no new breeds or holiday events.  As such, ensuring that they are not driven away by an overly disrespectful or harsh community (because who wants to put time and effort into making art that will only receive criticism, when they could have spent that same time doing art for something else, or just doing something else with their lives). I will not lie when I say that the community can sometimes put off artists from making breeds for DC. It is highly doubtful that large-scale events like another RPG or Snow wars would ever happen, if even just a handful of the currently active artists left DC...

 

Volunteer artists are just that- volunteers, and can choose to walk away any moment, leaving the website without new art. Since we are people too, for the interest of the site, it would be nice if genuine concerns were phrased less harshly - remember what you might think is fine, might be perceived more harshly by an artist - a human, just like you, who might then feel like their art and time would be better spent elsewhere...

 

Also,  "courtesy of having vetted and consistent mechanics in the game" - this would apply if you had paid, or contributed in some way. But you are playing for free - there is no contract between you and the game. If you don't like something, you can just choose to not engage with it. If the mechanics bother you that much, you can choose not to engage with the breed at all. ( Remember that completionist goals are self-imposed, and it is not my responsibility as an artist to reconcile my voluntarily-made breed with your self-imposed completionist goals... ) Or leave nicely-phrased feedback. 

 

It's true that the game is "something we all dedicate time to".  The distinction here is that most of the playerbase dedicates all of this time to their own satisfaction - to playing the game, as they should. On the other hand, we artists dedicate probably a lot more time, to not just our satisfaction, but also yours (by creating new content), so that you can enjoy the time you put, by choice, into the game...

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Dohaerys

[paradoxangel]

11 minutes ago, Dohaerys said:

the difference is that volunteer-contributors are crucial to the game's survival: without them there would be no new breeds or holiday events.  As such, ensuring that they are not driven away by an overly disrespectful or harsh community (because who wants to put time and effort into making art that will only receive criticism, when they could have spent that same time doing art for something else, or just doing something else with their lives). I will not lie when I say that the community can sometimes put off artists from making breeds for DC.

 

Volunteer artists are just that- volunteers, and can choose to walk away any moment, leaving the website without new art. Since we are people too, for the interest of the site, it would be nice if genuine concerns were phrased less harshly - remember what you might think is fine, might be perceived more harshly by an artist - a human, just like you, who might then feel like their art and time would be better spent elsewhere...

 

Also,  "courtesy of having vetted and consistent mechanics in the game" - this would apply if you had paid, or contributed in some way. But you are playing for free - there is no contract between you and the game. If you don't like something, you can just choose to not engage with it. If the mechanics bother you that much, you can choose not to engage with the breed at all. ( Remember that completionist goals are self-imposed, and it is not my responsibility as an artist to reconcile my voluntarily-made breed with your self-imposed completionist goals... ) Or leave nicely-phrased feedback. 

 

It's true that the game is "something we all dedicate time to".  The distinction here is that most of the playerbase dedicates all of this time to their own satisfaction - to playing the game, as they should. On the other hand, we artists dedicate probably a lot more time, to not just our satisfaction, but also yours (by creating new content), so that you can enjoy the time you put, by choice, into the game...

 

the difference is that volunteer-contributors are crucial to the game's survival: without them there would be no new breeds or holiday events.  As such, ensuring that they are not driven away by an overly disrespectful or harsh community (because who wants to put time and effort into making art that will only receive criticism, when they could have spent that same time doing art for something else, or just doing something else with their lives). I will not lie when I say that the community can sometimes put off artists from making breeds for DC.

The game's survival is actually contingent on it driving enough profit that TJ remains incentivized to keep it running.  This would require an active userbase, which I would suggest implies the userbase itself being happy and interested in playing the game is crucial to the game's survival.

 

Volunteer artists are just that- volunteers, and can choose to walk away any moment, leaving the website without new art. Since we are people too, for the interest of the site, it would be nice if genuine concerns were phrased less harshly - remember what you might think is fine, might be perceived more harshly by an artist - a human, just like you, who might then feel like their art and time would be better spent elsewhere...

I've seen a lot of valid concerns voiced perfectly reasonably here that have essentially been addressed as personal preference or attacks when that is clearly not the case.  Valid, constructive criticism like 'this is confusing for new or even continued players' and "I think this might be helpful to add in for x reasons" are not attacks or harsh.  If absolutely zero criticism can be applied without the spriter,  artist, or writer feeling attacked, they again, this may not be a platform that said person is ready for.

 

Also,  "courtesy of having vetted and consistent mechanics in the game" - this would apply if you had paid, or contributed in some way. But you are playing for free - there is no contract between you and the game. If you don't like something, you can just choose to not engage with it. If the mechanics bother you that much, you can choose not to engage with the breed at all. ( Remember that completionist goals are self-imposed, and it is not my responsibility as an artist to reconcile my voluntarily-made breed with your self-imposed completionist goals... ) Or leave nicely-phrased feedback. 

A courtesy is something that is extended to you as a favor, not as something you have earned or feel you deserve.  Considering the user base is what drives a profit to the game, I think certainly we as a group can expect the courtesy to be extended to us that we can play a game that functions consistently within its own universe.  See free to play expectations within Pokemon Go for a comparable reference.   

 

I would expect people willingly interacting with your concept and offering suggestions for improvement to be nice feedback that indicates they do very much like the concept, but perhaps find the execution lacking, and are willing to offer suggestions for improvement, which is a compliment.  After all, as you say, if they didn't like it, I'm sure they're ignoring it altogether, as any reasonable person would do. 

 

As I said before, 

Every time this user base offers valid criticism the pushback is always 'criticism means we lose talent,' except spun to sound like everyone is a wild pack of hyenas coming for blood instead of a vocal group of individuals pointing out genuine concerns. 

 

Everyone here seems genuinely respectful and seeking answers while pointing out flaws that conflict with what we've come to expect from the game.  

[Dohaerys]

18 minutes ago, paradoxangel said:

 

the difference is that volunteer-contributors are crucial to the game's survival: without them there would be no new breeds or holiday events.  As such, ensuring that they are not driven away by an overly disrespectful or harsh community (because who wants to put time and effort into making art that will only receive criticism, when they could have spent that same time doing art for something else, or just doing something else with their lives). I will not lie when I say that the community can sometimes put off artists from making breeds for DC.

The game's survival is actually contingent on it driving enough profit that TJ remains incentivized to keep it running.  This would require an active userbase, which I would suggest implies the userbase itself being happy and interested in playing the game is crucial to the game's survival.

 

That is exactly my point.

Without artists, there would be no new breeds and no new events. 

Without no new breeds and no new events, there would no longer be an active userbase.

Without an active userbase, TJ is no longer incentivized to keep it running.

 

I've seen a lot of valid concerns voiced perfectly reasonably here that have essentially been addressed as personal preference or attacks when that is clearly not the case.  Valid, constructive criticism like 'this is confusing for new or even continued players' and "I think this might be helpful to add in for x reasons" are not attacks or harsh.  If absolutely zero criticism can be applied without the spriter,  artist, or writer feeling attacked, they again, this may not be a platform that said person is ready for.

 

You are using a slippery slope fallacy here. There is a huge difference between 'this is confusing for new or even continued players' and "I think this might be helpful to add in for x reasons" - which are absolutely AMAZING as far crits go - nowhere in this thread have I ever seen anyone calling those crits too harsh? What is less pleasant is implying that there is no pure logic, or that it is a failure. Remember, artists are humans - it might be constructive, but if it framed in a rude way, someone will feel bad

 

A courtesy is something that is extended to you as a favor, not as something you have earned or feel you deserve.  Considering the user base is what drives a profit to the game, I think certainly we as a group can expect the courtesy to be extended to us that we can play a game that functions consistently within its own universe.  See free to play expectations within Pokemon Go for a comparable reference.   

You are contradicting yourself here

Pokemon Go is not obligated to be like that - it has chosen to be like that so that it will survive as a free-to-play game, given that it is a game run by a profit-driven company.

Y'know what dc needs to survive? artists and writers

 

 

It is late, and I am tired so this will be my last post...

Edited September 2, 2021 by Dohaerys

[paradoxangel]

3 minutes ago, Dohaerys said:

That is exactly my point.

Without artists, there would be no new breeds and no new events. 

Without no new breeds and no new events, there would no longer be an active userbase.

Without an active userbase, TJ is no longer incentivized to keep it running.

 

I can assure you, controversial mechanics and forum policing are far less crucial to keeping a userbase happy than new content. As such, you can see how artists and writers are crucial to the continued survival of the game...

 

Without no new breeds and no new events, there would no longer be an active userbase.

I know people who have literally done nothing but collect neotropicals for the last 10 years.  This doesn't exactly hold water.

 

I can assure you, controversial mechanics and forum policing are far less crucial to keeping a userbase happy than new content. As such, you can see how artists and writers are crucial to the continued survival of the game...

I agree- new content for the game is going to matter more to the userbase!  The thing is, the userbase can care about more than one thing at a time.  Lore and consistency don't have to be sacrificed so that content can exist for content's sake.  They can all matter, and if the userbase cares about them- as they've clearly voiced in this thread- then they should be addressed.  

 

I don't see that anyone here is trying to drive off artists.  The community as a whole in fact loves the artists and writers.  The community is simply asking that we address lore and consistency, respectfully, and it's being taken as an attack.  

[Dohaerys]

1 minute ago, paradoxangel said:

 

Without no new breeds and no new events, there would no longer be an active userbase.

I know people who have literally done nothing but collect neotropicals for the last 10 years.  This doesn't exactly hold water.

 

I can assure you, controversial mechanics and forum policing are far less crucial to keeping a userbase happy than new content. As such, you can see how artists and writers are crucial to the continued survival of the game...

I agree- new content for the game is going to matter more to the userbase!  The thing is, the userbase can care about more than one thing at a time.  Lore and consistency don't have to be sacrificed so that content can exist for content's sake.  They can all matter, and if the userbase cares about them- as they've clearly voiced in this thread- then they should be addressed.  

 

I don't see that anyone here is trying to drive off artists.  The community as a whole in fact loves the artists and writers.  The community is simply asking that we address lore and consistency, respectfully, and it's being taken as an attack.  

that might be anecdotally true, but those people are not the majority of the userbase at all.  And would you really prefer a DC with no new content?  It does hold water, the vast majority of the userbase will be gone...

 

I see we're finally agreeing on something. It's not that the community wants to drive off artists. It's that it's unintentionally doing so by asking, sometimes very harshly,  of certain requirements, which drives off artists. I am an irrational human, as are all the other artists, and I won't lie when I say that all of these posts and complaints like "no logic" or "failure" has really me off spriting for dc for the near future - after all, I'd rather just make art and show it to my friends, who will certainly have far less expectations and criticisms. Where I won't have to read 10+ pages on how the mechanic should be changed (keep in mind, the mechanic hasn't even been fully figured out yet) or on how you hate this mechanic so much... It doesn't matter if the criticism was perfectly valid - I am not a snowflake in the sense - but I would still be put off by seeing a bunch of people dogpiling onto my choices and criticising them.

Phrasing criticism nicely is the antidote to all of these. Even if it is constructive it should be phrased politely - would you say the same things to your professor or a stranger? Because that is what you are to me - strangers. That is all we ask for - constructive, polite criticism. I feel like the second adjective is thoroughly forgotten sometimes...