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Velvetie

Pink Sapphire mechanism

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Silverwatermist said:

But as a game play mechanic, it seems off compared to everything else on the site. Nothing wrong with trying out something new, but to me, it doesn't fit with what people often want to do with their dragons, so it feels off-center to what we know works well on DC. It makes sense to me that players will worry about how that's going to unfold as it goes on since we've never quite seen this before.

 

Indeed, having to throw an egg in the equivalent of a garbage can (AP) to get a special variant seems kind of counter-intuitive considering the spirit of the game until now. The only breeds that required you to do something outright negative to acquire them were zombies and neglecteds, and those are clearly not the average kind of dragon; too messed up to even breed or...well, too dead. Still, there's probably no chance of this mechanism changing so at the very least it would be nice if something was done to make CB pink sapphires slightly easier to get through an individual method. 

 

As an aside, I finally got my first one yesterday by AP-trading with a friend. I never expected to have to do this again since the introduction of teleport, the hub was supposed to eliminate the need for such risky, uncertain methods. 

Edited by MissK.
Can't type properly while also watching a lecture, who would have thought.

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Quite frankly I do not care if you call Trios, Unbreedable, Blusangs and the like rare or very uncommon. Offered multiple to one (including full sets, influenced breeding pairs) they should be sufficient to trade for a CB Common even during a release. Which tells me that the Trading Demand is all over the place even 3 weeks since release.

 

I offered anything you can imagine save a CB Metal or Stat for them and got nothing, and apparently even the people having those for trades are not successfull.

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I put up two NRs yesterday to try and get a CB albino. It's not all about rarity - a lot is about what other people want. I've put up 2 gen prizes to get a common I wanted  on occasion. Some days it works, others I am left with the thing !

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Posted (edited)

What kind of NR? Please keep in mind that bred stuff does not equal CB and for example the CB Peach Florets are common as sand compared to CB Pink Saphs.

 

Like I said I tried most every Rare/Very Uncommon (whatever) in hatched state or as egg, grouped or single. Aside of a Gen 2 Prize or a CB Metallic I tried everything I could think of. So it's not as if I tried like once and then came to cry here.

Edited by Nalyua

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CB floret HATCHIES, a bred BROWN floret (which is apparently hard to breed), eminences, electric (I tried the lot). And you have to admit even a CB peach is less common than an albino. and yes, I'm sorry you haven't managed yet - but that doesn't mean you never will.

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Posted (edited)

How did we get here? The topic is not about all new releases but the sapphires specifically. Edit: posted too soon oops. The rarity of other breeds has nothing to do with pink sapphires, which is what is considered a problem here.

Edited by MissK.

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Posted (edited)

@Fuzzbucket I can only speak for myself, and I had no issues whatsoever to obtain any of these via Trading or the Market. What I could not catch from the cave I was able to obtain via the Market as CB and if I chose so bred myself. For instance I can buy the Cbs or the parents of the Hybrids via Market and simply have them breed until they deign to give me the egg I want.

 

The Pink Saphires however DO NOT WORK THAT WAY. I do not know how this is so difficult to comprehend. Nothing I can do will get me a Pink Saphire unless I am dependant on someone dropping excatly what I need, someone else (or if I am lucky myself) picks it up and I can trade for it. So I agree with @MissK. here.

 

This is not about my crying that I am unable to obtain what I want, despite telling about my admittetly frustrating attempts to obtain the CBs I need, I am still trying to get them via the means we are given. However the longer I try through different way and different offers and the such, the more I am convinced that there is an issue with obtaining these supposed commons. Because in all the years I played the only time I saw something comparable was when the Prizes were first introduced and people got crazy about Holly Breeding when there was like only 100 CB Hollies on all DC and no Holiday Biome yet.

 

And saying "well others are not common like mints or albinos" is not adressing this issue, which we are talking about here.

Edited by Nalyua

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3 hours ago, Nalyua said:

Quite frankly I do not care if you call Trios, Unbreedable, Blusangs and the like rare or very uncommon. Offered multiple to one (including full sets, influenced breeding pairs) they should be sufficient to trade for a CB Common even during a release. Which tells me that the Trading Demand is all over the place even 3 weeks since release.

 

I offered anything you can imagine save a CB Metal or Stat for them and got nothing, and apparently even the people having those for trades are not successfull.

 

There is an issue with trying to equate hub-trades to actual rarity or frequency. Just because someone doesn't accept your offer doesn't actually mean the trade is *worth* more, or even that they accepted something worth more than what you offered. Just because there are trades *asking* for cb metals/stats doesn't mean those people will actually *get* what they are asking for. I've successfully traded a few cb common hatchies for pink sapphires in the hub. And this is something that *always* happens in the hub after a new release, it's not unique to the sapphire mechanic, the first couple weeks after a new release everyone in the hub is all over the new stuff and asking/offering insane things because HYPE and 'must get right now!!'. It will calm down. It has *always* calmed down. 

 

I don't like the pink sapphires being available only by abandoning. I really, really wish there was an alternative way to make them ourselves. But the release was only a tad over 2 weeks ago, acting like this is the way it will always be (or that it will get even worse) is simply panicking before we need to. We have no idea how common pink sapphies will be in the ap once most people move on to even-newer-releases or go back to what they were collecting before the birthday release. We have no idea if they will become less common in the ap because less people will be thinking about breeding/grabbing them, or if they will become *more* common because less people will want to keep them. 

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Feel like I've seen more CB metals in the cave than I actually have sapphires. I've caught 4 metals and 2 sapphires since the release. For a common dragon I think this is pretty abysmal.

 

There's a big difference between bred pink sapphires and CBs.

 

I just hope mechanics like this don't become the norm. I'm all for a bit of difficulty, such as the green cantos, but not these pink sapphires. It's also somewhat worrying that some dragons require interaction with other players (teleport canto, these) when previously you could obtain all breeds solo, with some difficulty, as far as I'm aware. How are players not on the forums supposed to obtain these if they don't become easier.

 

7 hours ago, MissK. said:

As an aside, I finally got my first one yesterday by AP-trading with a friend. I never expected to have to do this again since the introduction of teleport, the hub was supposed to eliminate the need for such risky, uncertain methods. 

uwu I felt like I was playing dragcave pre-2011.

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I support the mechanism change suggested by Velvetie.

 

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At this point i am just begging for pinks to be added to the market, i dont care if i pay 300 or 500 gems, i just want a CB pair of Pink Sapphires

 

It seems that AP-trading is the only sure method for a chance to get a CB currently, unless the method is changed as Velvetie suggested

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As time goes on I'm sure it will become easier to obtain pink Sapphires. New breeds are always in high demand, and eventually things even out.

 

However, no matter how much time passes this mechanic will still make lineage building with these sprites impossible. Pink Sapphires could become the most common dragon in the cave, but it won't help anyone who wants to breed them. If I want two of my dragons to have a pink baby there is no way I can actually have that hatchling for myself. The only possibility would be to change the parents' names and hope that whoever picks it up is both on the forums and willing to trade it back. But I shouldn't HAVE to depend on other users to have my own eggs from my own dragons for my own lineages.

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6 hours ago, FortyTwo said:

 

I just hope mechanics like this don't become the norm. I'm all for a bit of difficulty, such as the green cantos, but not these pink sapphires. It's also somewhat worrying that some dragons require interaction with other players (teleport canto, these) when previously you could obtain all breeds solo, with some difficulty, as far as I'm aware. How are players not on the forums supposed to obtain these if they don't become easier.

 

Just want to emphasis this. Honestly, one or two variants with ridiculous outside-help mechanics I can deal with. Yunno, if it's too much of a hassle I can decide they aren't worth it and just not collect them. But it *does* seem like DC has been trending towards more difficult, confusing mechanics the past couple years (not just the sapphires/cantors and not even just the birthday release...), and especially with ones that directly require other player's help I *really* hope these remain very niche exceptions and don't become a more common mechanic. 

 

A big draw for a lot of users is that DC is something you *can* play solitarily (or, used to be...). Some people avoid the hub completely because they want to accomplish their collection without depending on others. Some people don't have the ability to access the forum to learn all these complicated mechanics. Some people like DC because of the simplicity, because of the way you can play how you want without depending on other people's cooperation. That's how it used to be, at least. 

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10 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

Just want to emphasis this. Honestly, one or two variants with ridiculous outside-help mechanics I can deal with. Yunno, if it's too much of a hassle I can decide they aren't worth it and just not collect them. But it *does* seem like DC has been trending towards more difficult, confusing mechanics the past couple years (not just the sapphires/cantors and not even just the birthday release...), and especially with ones that directly require other player's help I *really* hope these remain very niche exceptions and don't become a more common mechanic. 

 

A big draw for a lot of users is that DC is something you *can* play solitarily (or, used to be...). Some people avoid the hub completely because they want to accomplish their collection without depending on others. Some people don't have the ability to access the forum to learn all these complicated mechanics. Some people like DC because of the simplicity, because of the way you can play how you want without depending on other people's cooperation. That's how it used to be, at least. 


All of this x10. I very strongly agree with every word.
 

3 hours ago, UnicornMaiden said:

As time goes on I'm sure it will become easier to obtain pink Sapphires. New breeds are always in high demand, and eventually things even out.

 

However, no matter how much time passes this mechanic will still make lineage building with these sprites impossible. Pink Sapphires could become the most common dragon in the cave, but it won't help anyone who wants to breed them. If I want two of my dragons to have a pink baby there is no way I can actually have that hatchling for myself. The only possibility would be to change the parents' names and hope that whoever picks it up is both on the forums and willing to trade it back. But I shouldn't HAVE to depend on other users to have my own eggs from my own dragons for my own lineages.


I also very strongly agree with this point about lineages. I know some people don't build lineages and just collect CBs, messies, etc. But the fact that we can breed a dragon (unlike the unbreedables) and yet can't retain at least 1 egg (like Holidays/Celestials) is a strange mechanic. I saw some people reflecting that the mechanic of abandoning to the AP promotes kindness/generosity (people have to give up their egg for others to be able to have any) and teamwork (you can work together with other players or trade) and while I guess the teamwork part might have some merit apart from me loving that you used to be able to play DC 100% solo and still potentially get every dragon, the kindness/generosity part seems off to me. When you get to choose what to breed/gift to AP, that's generosity and kindness. But this mechanic makes it harder to gift blue Sapphire eggs/lines to the AP (thankfully there's still a way with auto abandon!) and gives you no choice but to do so if you want Pink Sapphires to exist. So sometimes it's generous, sometimes it's just a bummer. And while I saw many people mentioning that if you want to get one of the eggs back, you can change the names of the parents, apart from the fact that it's unlikely that'll work-- as UnicornMaiden said, the person might not even be on the forums or understand HOW to return the egg to you--I have a couple problems with that option:

1) I don't breed dragons unless I name the parents first or am going to name them within a couple days of breeding the egg, especially if I'm gunna drop it in the AP so that whoever finds it can have a nice-named lineage to work with if they choose, which means I'd have to delete the parents' names, change them to a "help me!" message, then remember to change it back later. Which then effects every other existing Dragon bred from that pair, and if I'm often breeding Sapphires for folks in the AP, that means that pair will eventually have a lot of children, and all those lineages will constantly be in flux with changing names if I eventually want to try again and again to get 1 or 2 eggs back for my scroll. I find that frustrating for both myself and whoever picked up/raised any of that pair's eggs.

and 2) To me personally, it feels kind of ... unfair ... and like the opposite of kindness and generosity for me to breed a dragon and then change the parent's names to "help, trade this back to me" or whatever? Like, someone picks up the Pink Sapphire, probably really excited that they'll either have their own OR get to trade it for whatever they're planning around, only to check the lineage and potentially feel disappointed or sad about giving it back but guilty about keeping it because they want to help someone out. Some people will be like "nope, mine" and ignore my message (good for them honestly, that's their choice!) so I'd never expect to actually get my egg back by doing this, I'd expect that if someone grabbed it from the AP, they want it for something for themselves! But I know if it was me picking up the Pink Sapphire and seeing that message, I'd give the egg back, even if it was perfect for a breeding project and I felt really disappointed and was left wondering when in the world I'll catch another one like that, and I get that it'd be generous of me to give it back, but I don't want to make someone else feel torn about the egg they picked up? Like, if my eggs go to AP, I just want people to be either neutral and toss it back, or happy and keep it? Yet, if I want to ever breed a lineage with Pinks, that's currently the only option, so that's a big reason why I support another way (even a very difficult one) to obtain Pinks on our own. I support Infinis's suggestion of an extra way to create them and hope it'll be implemented.

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

There is an issue with trying to equate hub-trades to actual rarity or frequency. Just because someone doesn't accept your offer doesn't actually mean the trade is *worth* more, or even that they accepted something worth more than what you offered. Just because there are trades *asking* for cb metals/stats doesn't mean those people will actually *get* what they are asking for. I've successfully traded a few cb common hatchies for pink sapphires in the hub. And this is something that *always* happens in the hub after a new release, it's not unique to the sapphire mechanic, the first couple weeks after a new release everyone in the hub is all over the new stuff and asking/offering insane things because HYPE and 'must get right now!!'. It will calm down. It has *always* calmed down. 

 

 

1) Yes I am aware that the Hub contains really batty requests. However I have been trying since three weeks and I am still trying. Neither have my offers been accepted nor was the CB Pink Saph I am looking for offered to me. Again, I am not here to cry about not getting the offer I want, so please stop lecturing me how sometimes there is a Hype and how sometimes people request crazy stuff in trading and how sometimes you have to try for some time. I have been playing since 2009 and despite a hiatus of some time I am aware of this as I did casually keep tabs on DC via another source and have seen enough crazy releases during the time I actively participated in the forums.

 

Also I am not sitting there like some spoilt kid crying. I am still trying by all means I can think of. Having said as much, unless we are actually talking rares, three weeks is usually plenty of time for the Hype after a release. And I am voicing my observations on this point, and aparrently I am not the only one experiencing this, since people with CB metallics seemed to have the same issues. I repeat: I have never seen anything like this since first Holly Craze Breeding or the Introduction of Prizes, both which are (opposite to Saphs) Holidays.

 

2) You traded without issues, yes I see bred Pinks there frequently. And yes the hype for the bred ones has gone down somewhat. Though I am still talking about CBs, so unless you can show me constant and repeated trades where CB Pinks go for a reasonable price (should you be able to, I rest my case), I must assume you are talking about bred ones.

Edited by Nalyua

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10 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

A big draw for a lot of users is that DC is something you *can* play solitarily (or, used to be...). Some people avoid the hub completely because they want to accomplish their collection without depending on others. Some people don't have the ability to access the forum to learn all these complicated mechanics. Some people like DC because of the simplicity, because of the way you can play how you want without depending on other people's cooperation. That's how it used to be, at least. 

 

This is one thing I do rather regret. I am lucky enough to have plenty of contacts here, but even so, I do like to be able to go t alone.

 

2 hours ago, Nalyua said:

1) Yes I am aware that the Hub contains really batty requests. However I have been trying since three weeks and I am still trying. Neither have my offers been accepted nor was the CB Pink Saph I am looking for offered to me. Again, I am not here to cry about not getting the offer I want, so please stop lecturing me how sometimes there is a Hype and how sometimes people request crazy stuff in trading and how sometimes you have to try for some time. I have been playing since 2009 and despite a hiatus of some time I am aware of this as I did casually keep tabs on DC via another source and have seen enough crazy releases during the time I actively participated in the forums.

 

Where has anyone lectured you personally - there have been many posts saying it will die down (and it will) and suggesting ways to get around it all but I haven't seen any suggesting you are crying about not getting what you want. I am sad that I haven't got a CB yet - you aren't alone.

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Posted (edited)

I kind of feel like this is adressed to me. If it's not, good. Might be language issue (I am not a native english speaker), especially if I am quoted.

 

I just do not wish people to think that I am posting here merely to cry about not getting the offer I want. Because I am still trying and I will not give up. Just I get the feeling that this demand is not behaving like with previous releases and wish to make that observation. Considering we are already 3 Weeks in.

 

Edited by Nalyua

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I think the key is simply to discuss the mechanism, not to say "and I STILL haven't got one." Most of us haven't - but that in itself isn't going to change anything. We need a rational discussion about how to change something while abiding by Infinis' wishes. Which are that the primary mechanism is to be by abandoning - and that is her absolute right.

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Posted (edited)

Yes I agree, though I do like her suggestion by offering the chance via the ND-mechanism (well sort of) with the low views. Since it does fit her lore of Pinks being lonely and you have to work up for it, making AP still the fastest source.

 

It also solves the lineage issue to some extent.

Edited by Nalyua

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Exactly. But we all have to respect her wishes for the primary source being the AP.

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If I may voice my opinion here... I have to say I really DO NOT like the mechanism for getting Pink Sapphires. I'm saying this as someone who's caught my scroll goals as well as traded for a bunch to gift & I've caught a few to randomly gift people. They are INSANELY HARD to get. I have average internet speed as well as reflexes & for every one I've pounced on in the AP, more often than not another player got to it first. XD

 

I also wish there was another way to get them besides trying (and failing!!) to grab them from the AP. Honestly, I would LOVE it if they bred true & you had to wait until they were 3 days & under to get a pink one before it hatched. When something is really HARD to get, I can usually manage to get a pair, 2 if I'm lucky & then I breed what I need for scroll goals. But this mechanism makes that impossible to do & I can just imagine the frustration of those who like to build lineages being unable to keep their eggs. Maybe have it take forever for it to hatch so you can breed your own & combine that with a multiclutch, where you have to pick one & the rest are abandoned. That seems like a win-win to me. You have the lonely neglected egg that's too depressed to hatch out on time, plus you have anywhere from 1 to 3 other eggs being sent to the AP for others to find, unless you forget to pick one & they all end up there. XD People who make lineages will get to keep their eggs, solo players can continue to play by themselves, & something "nice" ends up in the AP for others to find. :D You'll still need to hunt the AP to get your initial pair or trade for it or get gifted a pair & then you can continue to play solo if you like or trade with your friends, or send eggs to the AP for others to find. :D

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I wouldn't want it to be as difficult as getting a Neglected dragon. That requires so much work and luck that it would still make lineage projects unfeasible, especially checkers where you need a lot of dragons in the first generation. However, something like needing to be down to less than two days before hatching, like the purple Siyats, would work fine.

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also a problem i have with lineage building is that if you dont have forums, the hub has a rule against targeting specific players in a trade. this feels really bad, like an unintentional trap for players who may not know better to fall into by trying to be nice only to get trade banned in the worse case scenario, having no idea what theyre doing wrong. this is an issue with the trading hub being generally unclear in general, so i dont want to turn the discussion in that particular direction, but its still... hrm. it just doesnt feel good to have a mechanic that REQUIRES you to rely on other players giving you your egg back if you want to build a lineage with your own dragons and also have a rule against targeting players in trades. yknow?

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7 hours ago, lexi_ said:

also a problem i have with lineage building is that if you dont have forums, the hub has a rule against targeting specific players in a trade. this feels really bad, like an unintentional trap for players who may not know better to fall into by trying to be nice only to get trade banned in the worse case scenario, having no idea what theyre doing wrong. this is an issue with the trading hub being generally unclear in general, so i dont want to turn the discussion in that particular direction, but its still... hrm. it just doesnt feel good to have a mechanic that REQUIRES you to rely on other players giving you your egg back if you want to build a lineage with your own dragons and also have a rule against targeting players in trades. yknow?


Wow, this is a fantastic point. For users without the forums, they can't use the trading hub to return the egg to the owner, and if they try without realizing the rule about it, they can get banned. It seems like this all might've been done intentionally (making it really hard/hopefully impossible to ever get your egg back) to enforce the lore, so to speak, that the dragon is lonely, but I really feel that most of this doesn't work as a game play mechanic... maybe even more strongly now, after the point you just made. I respect that Infinis wants it to be this way, but a second option really needs to be looked at if the AP mechanic must stay as is. I hope TJ will consider this, because as of now, it feels chosen purely for the lore, and not with the game and how it's played in mind.

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Can we just agree that on Wednesdays we wear pink, so that would be the day we breed/ buy/ catch and deliberately abandon Sapphires? 

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