Dear TJ why did you do this?

[DigitalGarden]

If an employee is malicious and brings bad reputation to the company, they're fired. Depending on the contract, the content they have created is also removed. This is how it is and it's not up for discussion if things go way too far.

 

Which is a reasonable practice; I wouldn't want to keep content associated with the "bad person" still on site if I were TJ. Sometimes you need to make a sacrifice for greater good.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Orchi'dea

[KageSora]

8 minutes ago, Tini said:

'why now' is partly dependent on having the sheer amount of art ready.

That's true that new assets take time to make--but this isn't a case of "this person only just said some stuff recently that was vile", this person has a history dating at least as far back as 2014.  So while I don't doubt that there was a delay between the decision to replace the work and the actual rollout of the replacement due to needing to have new art ready for it (and more than just a handful of sprites at that!), I do expect there's more to it than that--but that isn't really my place to delve into beyond that suspicion.

5 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

And also I suspect there may have been a new rash of vile posts recently. That kind of thing is on the rise and we all need to stand against it.

Yes, I expect this may have happened somewhere off-site, and may have been what ultimately prompted this rather than it being merely a reaction to their past behavior.  That or there's been sustained (or intermittent) behavior that's received complaints over the years and it's become a case of tipping the scales into no longer being willing to associate with a person that shows no inclination to learn or change their views.

 

Or maybe this was already being considered for some time, and there was simply a new bit of vile posting that finally pushed it from "consideration" into "action"

[miaou]

i can't believe i used to play dc as a stress reliever.

 

anyhow, as much as i loved some of the old sprites, i'm okay with the decision to remove them because of the general reasons tj gave. (this was actually a big question in one of the literature courses i took at university; i think the fact that dc is a privately owned enterprise is the bottom line to any debate here).

 

i've discontinued and even released to the wilderness some lineage projects - not because i don't like the new sprites but because they don't fit with what i was doing anymore. for me, that just means new possibilities opening up and the fun of discovering what looks good together now.

[Falorni]

Agree 100% with what others have commented here - while some of these updates aren't my cup of tea (the new 2headeds look too chunky for my liking) I'll happily deal with that if it means disassociating entirely from a vile person and their work.

[Rally Vincent]

If the screenshots I googled looking for what this was about are true - and since people here are confirming it, I assume they are -, the decision to disassociate the site with from the artist is absolutely right. 

[ScarletBounce]

1 hour ago, Keileon said:

Please remember that the people who made the new sprites are real people and you're effectively insulting their hard work.

This is indeed true, but real people also have feelings towards artwork.

 

While some of the new sprites I can get by, I have to agree with OP on the others not being my type at all. Basically i'm saying that the art style is not my cup of tea.

 

Is that an insult? Call it what you want. It's my personal preference. I have the right to my own preference, do i not? This is why we all have the terms called "favorite", "most favorite", "least favorite", "loved", "disliked", etc.

 

Is it wrong to be vocal about what one dislikes about the artwork? That's called criticism, is it not?

 

Personally, I dislike the new Soulpeace dragons. The one feature I loved about the first version is how they glitter (and hence the name Glitterball was born at that time). This new change removes that (At least in my perspective), and that was the main reason why I loved collecting them. Now, looking at the new versions, I really do not like it.

[Keileon]

1 minute ago, MomoScarletKaulitz said:

Is that an insult? Call it what you want. It's my personal preference. I have the right to my own preference, do i not? This is why we all have the terms called "favorite", "most favorite", "least favorite", "loved", "disliked", etc.

 

Is it wrong to be vocal about what one dislikes about the artwork? That's called criticism, is it not?

While it's perfectly fine to like or dislike a sprite and comment accordingly, there's a very fine but still existing line between criticism and sprite bashing. This comes up literally every time there's a sprite update-- being disappointed is fine, insulting the art is not.

[Chaosdawn]

I don't normally comment in threads like this but I need to say a few things. 

 

I completely support TJ's decision to cut ties with this individual, even though I haven't seen the comments in question. I would not feel comfortable 'supporting' such a person by having their artwork on my scroll. Just as I won't buy items by a person/company whose views I do not agree with. 

 

This is a free site owned by TJ. None of us have a right to tell him what's best for it. Please do not bash him/artists for doing what they think is best for the free service they gift us with. Yes, we are allowed to be sad or upset but in the end, it's just pixels. People are more important than pixels.

 

I personally like the new sprites and every time I look at them I'll be reminded of how DC took a stand against hurtful people/behavior. 

[ScarletBounce]

4 minutes ago, Keileon said:

This comes up literally every time there's a sprite update-- being disappointed is fine, insulting the art is not.

I think definining this fine line is very difficult.

 

In the open art world, when one prefers to commission artist A over artist B simply because they really dislike artist B's work, no matter how much artist B tries to advertise, the consumer would turn their nose up on artist B's work because they would rather not see that art--and the reasons are irrelevant: whatever the reason is for disliking the art that much, the reasons are there.

 

The thing is, we can't just turn up our nose on the stuff here in DC. What's there is there, ESPECIALLY for established dragons. Unlike the new ones where we can make a choice, old ones we're FORCED to live with.

 

So how then do we vent out the feelings that are more than just "disappointment"? As these are my feelings for the Soulpeace ones.

[Fuzzbucket]

2 minutes ago, Chaosdawn said:

every time I look at them I'll be reminded of how DC took a stand against hurtful people/behavior. 

 

Me too.

1 minute ago, MomoScarletKaulitz said:

I think definining this fine line is very difficult.

 

In the open art world, when one prefers to commission artist A over artist B simply because they really dislike artist B's work, no matter how much artist B tries to advertise, the consumer would turn their nose up on artist B's work because they would rather not see that art--and the reasons are irrelevant: whatever the reason is for disliking the art that much, the reasons are there.

 

The thing is, we can't just turn up our nose on the stuff here in DC. What's there is there, ESPECIALLY for established dragons. Unlike the new ones where we can make a choice, old ones we're FORCED to live with.

 

So how then do we vent out the feelings that are more than just "disappointment"? As these are my feelings for the Soulpeace ones.

 

You were polite about them. You said why you didn't like them, in a measured way. You didn't say they  were so ugly you wouldn't want them on your scroll. Or that they were "monstrosities". You said they weren't your type. That's fair comment, criticism, not insulting art. I'm not fond of a few breeds here, but I know others love them, and that tastes differ. Big deal.

 

19 minutes ago, Rally Vincent said:

If the screenshots I googled looking for what this was about are true - and since people here are confirming it, I assume they are -, the decision to disassociate the site with from the artist is absolutely right. 

 

I'm pretty sure that's EXACTLY what others of us had already seen. So thanks for validating hose of us who had seen it all earlier.

[Keileon]

8 minutes ago, MomoScarletKaulitz said:

I think definining this fine line is very difficult.

 

In the open art world, when one prefers to commission artist A over artist B simply because they really dislike artist B's work, no matter how much artist B tries to advertise, the consumer would turn their nose up on artist B's work because they would rather not see that art--and the reasons are irrelevant: whatever the reason is for disliking the art that much, the reasons are there.

 

The thing is, we can't just turn up our nose on the stuff here in DC. What's there is there, ESPECIALLY for established dragons. Unlike the new ones where we can make a choice, old ones we're FORCED to live with.

 

So how then do we vent out the feelings that are more than just "disappointment"? As these are my feelings for the Soulpeace ones.

A lot of it is in how things are phrased and worded. Saying things like, taking the OP as an example, "[x random thing] instead of [dragon name]" in such a way that it comes across as derogatory, or saying the dragon looks like it's literally being put to death (this came up in the last sprite update as well) are unnecessarily mean and, as an artist, if it was said about my work it wouldn't feel great.

 

Rather, it would be better to say it like "this feature of the dragon makes it look like this" or "the colors are so different it hurts this lineage" or "the pose was changed so much it looks like a different dragon" etc. It's all about the phrasing, and how you can spin it into something constructive-- this is the crux of criticism.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Keileon

[JaziandCo]

3 hours ago, KageSora said:

I, too, have seen some of the things said and would not repeat them because of their blatant malicious bigotry.  I'm more surprised it's happening now, rather than years ago, as this user has a history dating back at least as far as 2014 with their racist commentary (I cannot speak to any of their other comments, as I haven't seen them but I've heard tell of their continued behavior.  I'm rather curious what prompted this now, rather than years ago, but there's a reason TJ didn't go into details in the post--I expect that's not meant for those of us not directly involved in the situation to know, and curious though I am, I respect that.  Especially if it means protecting the privacy of their victims rather than forcing them to come forward and trot out their suffering to prove to people that it was "enough" to warrant an on-site change.)

 

Besides, if a privately owned website decides they wish to wash their hands of involvement with a person for their behavior--or any reason, really--that's something that is their decision.  It's like when a publisher drops a book by a bigot, or when somebody gets kicked off a creative project.  Happens all the time out in the wider world as well as on relatively small websites.

 

If you disagree with it, you're free to stop collecting those breeds or even using the site--I know there's been people who've stopped using the site because of that person's continued presence over the years, after all.

 

I say this as a person who does feel that, while lovely in and of themselves, some of the replacements completely ruined the lines I worked hard on because it changes the appearance so much.  I am, for once, more than happy to accept this because this was for a very, very good reason.

I also would like to know why now, when he chose not to do this the first time it was brought to his attention, and chose to silence and demote users that acted as whistleblowers.

 

I was demoted as an artist for 'breaking contract' due to reblogging a screenshot a different artist sent to my tumblr regarding the situation. ~~~ was not demoted. I have yet to be reinstated and frankly don't want to be, but it's very interesting to me that she's been allowed to continue to make art which makes TJ money for several years despite having made her racism and bigotry clear, meanwhile someone who her racism directly affects was removed from their position for posting about the problem on their personal time.

 

Her posts were pretty bad then and would be a bannable offense nowadays if she had posted it in public. Why it was allowed to continue for years and without an apology to those who she hurt doing so is beyond me.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Kaini

[Syiren]

1 minute ago, MomoScarletKaulitz said:

I think definining this fine line is very difficult.

 

In the open art world, when one prefers to commission artist A over artist B simply because they really dislike artist B's work, no matter how much artist B tries to advertise, the consumer would turn their nose up on artist B's work because they would rather not see that art--and the reasons are irrelevant: whatever the reason is for disliking the art that much, the reasons are there.

 

The thing is, we can't just turn up our nose on the stuff here in DC. What's there is there, ESPECIALLY for established dragons. Unlike the new ones where we can make a choice, old ones we're FORCED to live with.

 

So how then do we vent out the feelings that are more than just "disappointment"? As these are my feelings for the Soulpeace ones.

The person's tag on here was clear. Don't use their art/dragons for anything. Since they have been kicked from all things DC, and their scroll burned, it makes little sense to hold onto their work. I'm not happy with every new design, but it's been said perfectly by others: people come before pixels. I agree with this completely and will adjust. 

 

Tbh, I'm more bothered by the revolting misdeeds of said unnamed person. The phrases and terms just.... how can anyone think of other human beings that way? We're all human. Simple as that.

[vibrancy]

Honestly, I am a little frustrated at the whole situation, but, because of the circumstances, I don't feel like a have a right to complain.

The new sprites aren't bad, in fact, they look really cool. If they were new releases everyone would probably be all over them.

 

I mean, look at the new Sergammas! I think they look AWESOME.

And the new Day/Night Glorydrakes? Okay, they're beautiful, I think I prefer the new ones over the old!

 

If I'm being honest, the names changes bother me a little more then the sprite changes do, isn't that dumb? xD

 

I do think people have a right to be a little frustrated, it will take some getting used to, and yeah, lineages will look different.

But I don't see how there could've been another solution to the problem. So, what can we do.

I'm not happy with the Soulpeace change. I LOVE the previous Soulpeace sprites. The mature female hatchling? One of my favorite sprites, like, ever.

And I loved the soft, pastel colors of the breed. So extremely sad to see them go. For what feels like a stupid reason, even though it's not.

BUT, the new sprites are cute! They're not soulpeaces 😕 but they are cute!! And I think they look like a more accurate hybrid then the prev sprites. xD

^ me telling myself to try to look on the bright side.

 

The new artist(s) did an amazing job. As someone with little talent in art, I try to appreciate when others do what I could not. And well, in this situation. I think they hit it out of the park.

[Ran]

For the record, some faves of mine are affected by this, and it'll take me a while to warm up to the new sprites.

 

However, I am much happier with the new ones if it means cutting ties with a horrid person. I'm pleased and relieved to know that TJ's willing to have a hard stance on things like this.

[Chaos Rider]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

For the record, some faves of mine are affected by this, and it'll take me a while to warm up to the new sprites.

 

However, I am much happier with the new ones if it means cutting ties with a horrid person. I'm pleased and relieved to know that TJ's willing to have a hard stance on things like this.

This, I loved the original Electric Dragon sprites and wanting to own one was one of the reasons that I joined DC in the first place. I'll live with the new ones, heck if this was a new release and not replacement dragons I would have been thrilled with this many new sprites to collect. There was one lineage project I was working on but I can do a mock-up of what it would have looked like and see about finding a new mate to start over with

[Fuzzbucket]

8 minutes ago, Vibrance said:

Honestly, I am a little frustrated at the whole situation, but, because of the circumstances, I don't feel like a have a right to complain.

The new sprites aren't bad, in fact, they look really cool. If they were new releases everyone would probably be all over them.

 

 

This, very much. I don't like every new release, but if these were all new, everyone would be going wild for at least some of them and saying which they liked best and so on.

[Starscream]

The situation itself was extremely nasty. I, for one support the change fully. 

Naming the person in question would give them power and notoriety, this is not something we should allow.

No matter how pretty the sprites were, it is best to change them.

Dragon Cave is also a privately owned site.

I do not want to be associated with the person and the revolting things they said.

I believe how the sprites looked in lineages was considered.

I believe the changes were done from a legal standpoint.

To remove the sprites altogether would have causes chaos

 

These are all my own thoughts on the situation. Mine and mine alone.

 

Artists, well done on your work. Thank you TJ09 for distancing us from such a horrific individual.

 

This is all I am saying on the matter, I cannot reply to quotes and whatnot.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Starscream

[Confused Cat]

I will miss some of the sprites, but I think TJ's newspost explained perfectly well why this had to happen. That it was not an easy decision with regard to what it does to lineages (and sprite collectors), but the only right decision with regard to dealing with that person.

 

Thank you @TJ09.

[random_dragon_collector]

I respect TJ for doing what he did for the reason he did it.  I feel for those who are frustrated (I felt horribly about changes to the Magi and the seasonals and reds), and I understand that you need to vent.

 

The artists of the new sprites did a great job.  The only sprite I will really miss is the female RF Tidal, but I like the new Tideweavers.  I really like the new hybrid--though I feel for the person who said they lost their glitter, because I will always miss the trailing stuff on the seasonal hatchlings (my fave thing about them).  I like the lines and colors of the new ones.  I love the tail of the new 2-head, and the new seawyrm pygmy is fantastic from egg to both adults.  In fact, the new eggs look cool for all the breeds.  I always wish for simpler names I won't have to learn how to spell, but I'll adapt.

 

If I'm not mistaken, all or all but one have dimorph adults, and hatchlings, too.  The artists put in a lot of work, and I like the news one better in most cases, and like them at least the same as the orginal in all cases.  As someone posted above, at least for this sprite replacement, when I see the new art I'll know what it stands for instead of the site changing the art for other reasons.

[RealWilliamShakespeare]

Quite honestly I can't believe this is a discussion that needs to happen!

 

I'm incredibly proud to be part of a website which stands up so actively against bigotry, and couldn't be happier with TJ's decision. The new art we've got is beyond beautiful and the hard work that went into it is incredibly commendable. Thank you for putting a stop to this person's terrible views. I'm happy to be collecting sprites which are made by better people.

[JaziandCo]

39 minutes ago, Starscream said:

Naming the person in question would give them power and notoriety, this is not something we should allow.

 

Bull.

 

The person in question said awful, nasty, vile racist things such as advocating for the genocide of an entire race. And TJ knew about it and allowed that person to stay on staff for LITERAL YEARS before finally doing something about it. And in the mean time silenced one of the ONLY black artists on staff for speaking up about a co-worker's words that DIRECTLY affects them.

 

Refusing to name her provides a shield and allows for anonymity. It's the Voldemort problem.

 

You want to know why I haven't been around since 2014? Take a guess. This is not news to TJ that she was a problem and she should not be provided a shield to hide behind when she certainly wasn't providing one to those she herself said she'd like to see dead.

[Fuzzbucket]

One mistake - however bad, doesn't render this excellent action by TJ worthless. 

[Paradisiske]

It is upsetting that it took TJ years. I had resigned myself to the fact that TJ will once again do nothing over a legitimate issue because he couldnt be bothered.

 

This decision of his has been a long time coming. 

 

The artists have done a wonderful job with the new sprites.

 

As for the op what could have been said that's soooo bad to change the sprites? Not like hitler right?

 

They basically are hitler. A white supremacist advocating for genocide, a racist mf who hates black people and fetishes asians, hates trans people and LGBTQ+ people.

 

If you need to see proof about this then google groovie from flight rising. They caused drama in a lot of communities. 

 

This person deliberately insulted and attacked other dc artists and then pulled the it's just a joke why you so mad crap.

 

 

I am glad to see their scroll finally got burned. I am glad that their art is removed and replaced with objectively better art.

 

The glitter on the old soul peace I'm pretty sure you're talking about how they couldnt sprite feathers for **** and gave it that crunchy look of glittery fish scales.

 

 

I do think tj should apologize to JaziandCo for his treatment of them back then. He did chose the nazi over them. He cant truly make it right without an apology. 

 

 

 

Trans rights are human rights.

Black lives matter.

Nazis will burn in hell.

[random_dragon_collector]

4 minutes ago, CellyBean said:

 

 

I do think tj should apologize to JaziandCo for his treatment of them back then. He did chose the nazi over them. He cant truly make it right without an apology. 

 

 

This seems reasonable.  Doubtful it will happen, but reasonable.