Trade Hub "Information/Rules" Page

[DragonLady86]

Pretty sure groups are allowed since they are part of the cave. 

 

What about excessive bumping? Canceling and reposting everytime a trade falls off the first page? Harder to prove though.

[Fuzzbucket]

59 minutes ago, Ruby Eyes said:

Eh? But those are not offsite. Why would they be forbidden if they help describe what I'm looking for?

 

No links at all, I believe, OK - misphrased. Editing.

55 minutes ago, Zimtie said:

Thanks for this suggestion. Good idea. And we need info on how often we are allowed to "bump" trades.

 

The person who indirectly launched this discussion in TLQ and here is just doing it again 😬

 

Bumping - sure, but to be fair it doesn't say anywhere that we can't...

 

That individual at least isn't offering targeted ones any more so I assume you mean bumping ?

[Ruby Eyes]

11 minutes ago, DragonLady86 said:

Harder to prove though.

We can't prove it, but I'm sure that's all logged somewhere for a while, accessible by TJ and possibly also the mods.

[Fuzzbucket]

Just now, Ruby Eyes said:

We can't prove it, but I'm sure that's all logged somewhere for a while, accessible by TJ and possibly also the mods.

If they have been reported for it, all reports are logged; a mod said so in TLQ.

 

First post edited.

[Varasse]

23 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

That individual at least isn't offering targeted ones any more so I assume you mean bumping ?

 

You assumed right. Sorry for not making that clear.

 

24 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Bumping - sure, but to be fair it doesn't say anywhere that we can't...

 

Oh. I thought there was a rule for that and that it was simply not placed in the hub but posted in the forums somewhere. Maybe I messed that up with the forums altogether 😳

[Fuzzbucket]

That's exactly the thing. It has been said (not officially) here - but most players aren't actually on the forum.

[Jazeki]

I support this for players who need it, especially since there are new players every day. It would also help to avoid having rules that are left to interpretation.

[HeatherMarie]

Support. Such Support. 

 

I've always thought the hub 'rules' were pretty straight-forward as-is, but time and time again it's been proven that people just don't understand/interpret the current text the way I do. *Especially* now that we are aware people who are banned *aren't told why* (which honestly is just horrible and wrong), there really really should be reasons spelled out on-site. 

 

Having rules really spelled out in the Hub has been asked for countless times, and I'll say again what I've said before: Giving examples of reasons you might be banned is good, helpful even, but it *must* include something to the extent of 'other reasons not stated here'. We don't want to run into the age-old issue of people complaining they were banned even though they didn't do the things specifically listed (but did do something definitely Not Okay). 

 

The bumping limit idea is good, but as far as I know that's not currently a bannable offense. Is it? 

[Paradisiske]

17 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

 

You may be suspended or banned from trading if you post:

 

• spam - e.g. song lyrics or "hahahaha" or so on
• trades aimed at an individual player
• trades asking for a specific egg (as in "the egg with code 12345")
• off-site links, or links to groups or to the forum (mentioning a group by its number is OK)
• If you bump your trades too often

 

 

 

Fuzz I dont know if what you have here are official rules or not but

 

I think banning people for wanting to trade for a specific egg that has a specific code is BAD. 

 

Plenty of people are interested in all numbers codes and word codes. Banning someone because they asked in their trade oh if you offer something that has a code like this as being seen as acceptable is BAD. 

 

People should NOT be artificially limited to what they are able to trade seeing as how the game itself does not treat certain codes as more special than others limiting them to not being tradable. 

 

 

Let people share links to their groups which are on site if they are already able to.  Plenty of people are searching for mates for their dragons. They are only interested in trading for the mates they are looking for.  If they can't post links at this time then fine group number is okay. 

 

Honestly bumping maybe once or twice a day should be fine. If its every hour then I guess it is a bit excessive. 

 

If someone wants to trade with someone specifically but that person has no forum account that they know of and they can't reach them off site then I see no issue with someone putting in their trade for so and so. As long as they are not excessively bumping the trade then it should be fine. 

 

 

And are you saying someone should be banned if they write "hahaha"? I mean if that is the only writing in their trade then I guess it is a bit frustrating trying to figure out what they want so it is I guess spam? But they should not be banned if they have a want and then write hahaha for example "Have cb copper want chicken hahaha."

 

 

When I go on the hub I can't find any rules. The only thing I see is when I go to report a trade do you get a rule which is report trades that do not help others figure out what the trader is looking for.

 

 

Fuzz if you came up with these rules then I have to disagree with the majority of them. They feel inane and artificially restrictive. Plenty of people use the hub. Not everyone is going to post a trade that caters to your or my taste. That does not mean that those people should be banned from the hub. 

 

 

As for the very premise of this thread, yes I do agree that people who are banned should have something either on the hub page or an email preferably both that tells them why they are banned from the hub. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tini]

Those are the current unofficial rules that get you banned. I don't agree with them all but that's not up to me.

[Paradisiske]

19 minutes ago, Tini said:

Those are the current unofficial rules that get you banned. I don't agree with them all but that's not up to me.

Where can you find these rules on the site? Because I can't find them on the hub for some reason

[dragongrrl]

Forum trading rules:

 

[HeatherMarie]

34 minutes ago, CellyBean said:

Where can you find these rules on the site? Because I can't find them on the hub for some reason

 

That's exactly what this thread is about. They *aren't* on the site. At least, not spelled out in the way they have been in this thread. They *are* the current bannable rules, but they aren't specified that way on the site. That's why this thread is suggesting a change. 

edit to add: The 'not addressing one specific person' is the only rule currently actually spelled out when you make a trade.

 

(edit again: A lot of users don't agree with those rules, what can get you banned from the Hub, etc. There have been multiple threads debating those things. This thread is simply to actually spell out the rules on-site, not debate yet again over whether or not the rules are right/fair/whatever. I *really* would like this whole 'hub rules' issue to just be settled, so many users frustrated with it, I'm concerned about this thread devolving into something different...)

Edited April 15, 2021 by HeatherMarie

[MissK.]

4 hours ago, dragongrrl said:

Forum trading rules:

 

 

This is actually the first time I hear that these rules supposedly apply to the trading hub. Nowhere in that post does it mention anthing about the trading hub, in fact it specifically mentions the trading subforum only in the title, as in on the forum. Most rules mention threads and posts, and even the bumping rule which could potentially refer to the trading hub talks about editing, which is only possible on forum posts. From the first post here and what others are saying I assume it's confirmed by mods that these rules also apply to the hub? But in that case it is extremely unclear that that is the case, I've been playing since 2008 and trade regularly and I would never have made that connection.

 

We do absolutely need clear rules on-site, especially if people are getting banned and don't know why. But even before/aside from that, if the rules in that thread also apply to the hub, that needs to be made way clearer with specific references to it.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by MissK.
grammar is hard in the morning

[Ruby Eyes]

5 hours ago, CellyBean said:

I think banning people for wanting to trade for a specific egg that has a specific code is BAD. 

 

Plenty of people are interested in all numbers codes and word codes. Banning someone because they asked in their trade oh if you offer something that has a code like this as being seen as acceptable is BAD. 

I think you misunderstood this one.

Wanting a specific TYPE of code is not a bannable offense. Like, You can ask for all-caps codes, all number codes, z-codes, namelike codes - no problem, as long as it addresses *multiple* people.

However, asking for something with a specific code because you know that egg exists right now (e.g. it's a Thuwed egg, or you accidentally dropped it, etc), so you asking for the thing with the code l04wf - now THAT is bannable, because it cannot possibly apply to multiple people - only to one, the item's current owner.

 

(that code is my leetle tree, btw)

Edited April 15, 2021 by Ruby Eyes
typo

[Moonlight_Eevee]

On 4/14/2021 at 4:30 AM, Fuzzbucket said:

off-site links, or links to groups or to the forum (mentioning a group by its number is OK)

 

I think you need to re-edit this part to "off-site links or links to the forum". Right now it sounds like it's just a contradicting statement. It had me alarmed when I first browsed through it.

[Varasse]

18 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

*Especially* now that we are aware people who are banned *aren't told why* (which honestly is just horrible and wrong), there really really should be reasons spelled out on-site. 

 

Wasn't the question if the mods could contact them instead of having to ban them without a warning?

 

They do know why they got banned. Sort of. You get a notification bell and then this appears: "Your account’s ability to create public trades and add messages to trades has been temporarily removed due to misuse."

 

When you follow the link it leads you to https://dragcave.net/help/trading_ban where - in my case - it said:

---

Your account’s ability to create public trades and add messages to trades was temporarily removed due to misuse.

The restriction expired on Apr 13, 2021.

 

The following trade messages were reported and may have contributed to this restriction. Not all these messages may violate the rules:

 

"-Name removed-, please read the trading rules (message/warning that shows when you set up a trade)."

 

For reference, the rules for trading are as follows:

Describe what you’re offering and/or help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. If creating a public trade, your message should be applicable to many people using the trading hub, not just a specific person. Off-site links are forbidden.

---

 

I posted a trade directed at the person in question. Said trade has apparently been reported. I got banned for one day. Which is absolutely fine with me.

 

But this info does not help when the person does not click the link. And if they click it but do not understand why they were banned. So the rules need to be clear and fleshed out and somewhere where you see them - always and not just when you are setting up a trade (on-site help maybe?).

[animatedrose]

I agree with getting the actual rules on-site anyway possible. Them being forum-only defeats the whole point, especially since there is a ban element. Just put ALL of the rules or a link to the rules on-site so everyone can access them. I still don't see why this is hidden behind the "these are obvious, it's not needed" argument for some. It has been proven to be wrong so many times now. Please just make them accessible from the Hub itself so these events can lessen in number.

[Fuzzbucket]

9 hours ago, CellyBean said:

 

Fuzz I dont know if what you have here are official rules or not but

The bits quoted verbatim from the trading hub are official:

 

Describe what you’re offering and/or help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. If creating a public trade, your message should be applicable to many people using the trading hub, not just a specific person.

Warning: Use of trading messages for any purpose except those stated above may result in disciplinary action, such as loss of ability to create public trades. Off-site links are forbidden.

 

Quote

I think banning people for wanting to trade for a specific egg that has a specific code is BAD. 

Well, it is against the rules, so we shall have to disagree. 

 

Quote

 

Plenty of people are interested in all numbers codes and word codes. Banning someone because they asked in their trade oh if you offer something that has a code like this as being seen as acceptable is BAD. 

A code LIKE this (an all number code, an all caps code, a word code is fine. "The egg with code ghijk" is not. It applies only to one person.

 

Quote

People should NOT be artificially limited to what they are able to trade seeing as how the game itself does not treat certain codes as more special than others limiting them to not being tradable. 

 

Let people share links to their groups which are on site if they are already able to.  Plenty of people are searching for mates for their dragons. They are only interested in trading for the mates they are looking for.  If they can't post links at this time then fine group number is okay. 

No links - TJ cannot allow direct communication between scrolls. Put "group number" and you're fine.

 

Quote

 

Honestly bumping maybe once or twice a day should be fine. If its every hour then I guess it is a bit excessive. 

 

If someone wants to trade with someone specifically but that person has no forum account that they know of and they can't reach them off site then I see no issue with someone putting in their trade for so and so. As long as they are not excessively bumping the trade then it should be fine. 

It isn't fine at all.

 

The rules specifically state:

• Describe what you’re offering and/or help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. If creating a public trade, your message should be applicable to many people using the trading hub, not just a specific person.

 

Quote

And are you saying someone should be banned if they write "hahaha"? I mean if that is the only writing in their trade then I guess it is a bit frustrating trying to figure out what they want so it is I guess spam? But they should not be banned if they have a want and then write hahaha for example "Have cb copper want chicken hahaha."

Yes you can be banned for just hahahaha and nothing more, or for a line of song lyrics. I have no idea what happens if you put it as a part of your message.

 

Quote

When I go on the hub I can't find any rules. The only thing I see is when I go to report a trade do you get a rule which is report trades that do not help others figure out what the trader is looking for.

 

Fuzz if you came up with these rules then I have to disagree with the majority of them. They feel inane and artificially restrictive. Plenty of people use the hub. Not everyone is going to post a trade that caters to your or my taste. That does not mean that those people should be banned from the hub. 

 

You can disagree all you like - but they are all (except possibly bumping) things that people HAVE been banned for. That was why I listed them. 

This message  comes up every time you go to post a public trade.

 

Describe what you’re offering and/or help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. If creating a public trade, your message should be applicable to many people using the trading hub, not just a specific person.

Warning: Use of trading messages for any purpose except those stated above may result in disciplinary action, such as loss of ability to create public trades. Off-site links are forbidden.

1 hour ago, Dalek said:

 

I think you need to re-edit this part to "off-site links or links to the forum". Right now it sounds like it's just a contradicting statement. It had me alarmed when I first browsed through it.

Edited - please see if that's better for you ?

 

43 minutes ago, Zimtie said:

 

Wasn't the question if the mods could contact them instead of having to ban them without a warning?

 

They do know why they got banned. Sort of. You get a notification bell and then this appears: "Your account’s ability to create public trades and add messages to trades has been temporarily removed due to misuse."

 

When you follow the link it leads you to https://dragcave.net/help/trading_ban where - in my case - it said:

---

Your account’s ability to create public trades and add messages to trades was temporarily removed due to misuse.

The restriction expired on Apr 13, 2021.

The big issue here started when someone was repeatedly breaking the rules and a mod stepped in and said that no, there is no way to warn them if they aren't on forum - so although they are probably well-meaning, they were repeatedly offending, and will in the end be banned simply for not stopping.

 

43 minutes ago, Zimtie said:

But this info does not help when the person does not click the link. And if they click it but do not understand why they were banned. So the rules need to be clear and fleshed out and somewhere where you see them - always and not just when you are setting up a trade (on-site help maybe?).

 Exactly this, Like the PM you get when you get a warn on forum - which tells you  precisely what you did wrong and which post it was in.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Fuzzbucket

[Paradisiske]

9 hours ago, dragongrrl said:

Forum trading rules:

 

Thank you. A bit silly that these rules are labelled for the forums but apply to the hub as well with no mention of it on the hub. 

 

1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

 

Well, it is against the rules, so we shall have to disagree. 

 

 

 

I apologize Fuzz. I thought you might have been possibly creating those rules themselves. I did not realize they were official rules for the hub when i looked all over the hub, checked the help page and TOS and didn't see any of those rules mentioned.  I wasn't here when the hub was introduced into the game so I wrongfully assumed that any rules that apply to it would be easily accessible. I was wrong. 

 

But as I stated before I agree with the premise of your thread. 

[Murkydepths]

I agree that the rules of the hub need to be available, on the hub. This thread is proof that we aren't even sure what rules apply to the hub, and which are for forum trading. 

 

And if they are considering what the official rules should be, I don't agree with the bumping rule since I think it will punish legit people more than stop actual bump-crazy people. It'd be pretty hard to determine if someone is bumping frequently or if they just changed what they were asking for or fixed a typo. If it were done automatically (eg exact same egg + text uploaded twice in one hour) I think that'd be even worse. I don't even think people bumping often is really a problem, as we have a search bar and there's not that many pages on the hub. And I very rarely see serial bumpers. 

[KrazyKarp]

Trade hub definitely needs a well-defined set of rules. Right now, it's very difficult to discuss what rules the trade hub exactly as because they're scattered across the forum. I think right now we just need to focus on actually getting a list of rules on-site, then from there if we need to discuss specific rules, we can.

 

And of course, people need to be told why they were banned. I feel like that much is obvious.

[Kaini]

The hub rules are on the hub every time you go to make a public trade, and have been quoted here many times:

 

 

What is unclear about this? They are there, on site.

 

The 'unofficial' rules fuzz stated:

• spam - e.g. song lyrics or "hahahaha" or so on (Does not help anyone understand what you are looking for, covered above)
• trades aimed at an individual player (Your message should not be applicable to only one person, covered above)
• trades asking for a specific egg (as in "the egg with code 12345") (Your message should not be applicable to only one person, covered above)
• off-site links, links to the forum or links to groups (mentioning a group by its number is OK) (explicitly stated above)
• If you bump your trades too often (this isn't a thing. We've never taken action on someone for this, but look! This isn't stated above. purposefully.)

 

? All these rules are there.

 

As others stated, you are also given a notification if you are temporarily suspended (not banned... this never happens without multiple infractions or a severe misuse such as abusive speech) and you are told which messages violated the rules.

 

I'm sure TJ would be open to suggestions to re-wording these rules to make them more clear, but afaik we will NOT be making a laundry list of unacceptable actions, because there will always be another one people come up with and then they'll point and say well it wasn't on the no no list!

 

So how can this be made clearer?

 

(Also fyi I'm support for a forum link if you get a temp suspension that says 'join the forum to contact a moderator' or sm)

[Wymsical]

13 minutes ago, Kaini said:

So how can this be made clearer?

By making a clear and concise list of rules instead of a vaguely worded couple of sentences. So, the very thing this thread is suggesting. There is such a huge demand for trade rules to be more clear, similar to how the rules for descriptions are laid out (and, mind you, trade rules wouldn't need to be anywhere nearly as long, it wouldn't be difficult to make a simple bullet point list of the rules), instead of leaving it up to interpretation.

There's no need to make a large laundry list, just a simple few types of disallowed trades and examples of such, it wouldn't be that hard to do.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Commander Wymsy

[KrazyKarp]

10 minutes ago, Kaini said:

So how can this be made clearer?

Compare the forum rules with the hub rules. Forum rules are much more detailed and structured; hub rules are a small and brief statement of words. The forum rules even have a "laundry list" of inappropriate content.