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Trade Hub "Information/Rules" Page

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If there is concern that having a long list of rules on the trading page would be cluttered, maybe there could be a link to a page with detailed rules? e.g.:

 

Quote

Describe what you’re offering and/or help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. If creating a public trade, your message must follow the rules.

 

That way the rules would be easy to find for anyone who is making a public trade and we would avoid unnecessary text cluttering the page when people who already know the rules want to make a trade. 

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10 hours ago, Kaini said:

IOUs can't be completed at all within the site's mechanics, which I assume is why they're not mentioned specifically in the rules. You can't do one on-site anyway... and elsewhere (such as the forums and discord) it's pretty explicitly disallowed. Since it's impossible on the site alone, I don't see a reason to put that rule there. If anything, updated the rules on the forum to also mention IOU talk is not permitted on the hub, either.

 

I really don't think the answer to 'we want specific rules on site' should be 'okay we'll do it, but off-site' you should be easily able to double check the rules without having to dig through a dozen faqs on the forums. The 'rules' already exist somewhere here on the forums, buried in some previous topic about the hub, people can't find them when they want to. 

 

10 hours ago, Kaini said:

Searching for a specific egg by code is not permitted. This violates the 'applicable to many people' rule. Yes this includes specific 2g thuweds and 2g SAs. If one person and one person alone has it, don't ask for it specifically. Try 'A 2g thuwed I don't have' or similar.

 

This doesn't mean word codes that don't exist yet - I say 'want some form of Kaini code' because it doesn't exist and isn't targeting anybody, and there are many variations. Now if 'Kaini' with perfect caps like that already exists and one person has it... again, no.

 

I disagree that these are different in regards to the rule. I get why word codes are different than 2g thuwed/SAs but, I don't think there's a difference in the wording of the actual rule we have. Word codes are rare in general, you're not gonna see two of the same word at the same time, at least for 4 and 5 letter codes. So in practice only one person will pick up any variant of a Kaini coded egg. (The odds are just so wildly stacked against there being two kaini eggs at the same time). Only one 2g from split thuwed is going to exist at any given time, only 1 egg coded kaini is going to exist at a given time. Only one person in both cases can have that egg, ergo, targeting one person. I don't think word code trades should be banned, for the record.

 

(Has anyone been banned for asking for specific 2g thuwed/SAs? Or are they protected through use of 'offers, x is auto'? Is it just that you can ask for specific eggs so long as you at least pretend you'll accept something else otherwise? Cause that's kinda how it feels.)

 

Also yeah I never understood why there wasn't a rules page. I mean, it's because its a single sentence so it would be a waste of bandwidth to dedicate a page to that, but if they were hopefully expanded there should just be a rules page.

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2 hours ago, Tinibree said:

 

I disagree that these are different in regards to the rule. I get why word codes are different than 2g thuwed/SAs but, I don't think there's a difference in the wording of the actual rule we have. Word codes are rare in general, you're not gonna see two of the same word at the same time, at least for 4 and 5 letter codes. So in practice only one person will pick up any variant of a Kaini coded egg. (The odds are just so wildly stacked against there being two kaini eggs at the same time). Only one 2g from split thuwed is going to exist at any given time, only 1 egg coded kaini is going to exist at a given time. Only one person in both cases can have that egg, ergo, targeting one person. I don't think word code trades should be banned, for the record.

 

 

There is a pretty big difference between 'this is rare' and 'only one specific person can possibly have what I'm asking for'. The current on-site phrasing says   your message should be applicable to many people using the trading hub, not just a specific person.  Notice it says *applicable*, and 'specific person'. Asking for a specific egg that already exists is breaking that, asking for a *rare* egg (code, rare cb, etc) is not. Just because it would be rather surprising to see two 4/5-letter 'kaini'-type codes in growing dragons at the same time doesn't mean it's *targeting* only one specific egg. 

 

I see how, in practice, those things might seem the same under the currently-vague rule. It is basically just splitting hairs, I admit that. But it *isn't* the same under the current rule, even if it seems like maybe it would be interpreted that way.

 

As far as IOUs, forum-mention, etc, at this point I feel like some general 'must be complete-able in-hub' would be helpful. But then people would say that excludes any forum communication at all, so a specific 'referencing off-site contact info is okay *if* a want is also given' might be good. Those two together should (should??) take care of both of those things. IOUs aren't allowed because they can't be completed on-site. Putting only 'contact on forum' isn't allowed because you need to actually put some sort of want (which really should be covered by the current Describe what you’re offering and/or help others understand what types of offers you are looking for.  but obviously not). 

 

 

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I think an updated set of rules would be a nice addition - provided they are easy to understand by all. From my days as a Mod on another site, I found that once we added in a clearer set of rules* with examples - some issues lessened (I say lessened because even after having public discussions and topics stating these clarifications, there were still some who didn't listen)

 

Here's a few examples of what I mean of clear rules with examples

 

1. Your wanted dragon(s) must apply to multiple people

- So asking for a 2g Albino from Albino x Black = yes. However, a 2g Aegis from SAlt Radiant Angel x SAlt Aegis = no (as only one person has the power to breed this*)

 

2. You can ask for codes, but not specific ones

-so asking for a 'riven' code of any capitalization/letter/number combo = yes

Asking specifically for "R1V3N" = no

 

3. You can NOT ask for or offer I.O.U's

- you must have the dragon(s) you intended to trade/offer on your scroll

 

Just a few examples, I know there are more and/or other ways to phrase these

 

*These rules had/have their own topic in the forums - they were not fully integrated into the actual help/game rules (though some changes were made to the actual help sections)

 

*I am aware the SAlt Aegis x SAlt Radiant Angel is impossible - they were just the first two SAlts on the same scroll I could think of

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4. You may not post links to other sites; this includes the forum.

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I'm confused as to why referencing the forum is bad? Why is the forum considered "off site"? 

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56 minutes ago, KRABBIT said:

I'm confused as to why referencing the forum is bad? Why is the forum considered "off site"? 

I think that might be because you don't need a Dragon Cave account to have a Dragon Cave forums account (and vice versa). Thus in a way, they are two different sites [plus comes the fact you can have a different username on both]

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21 hours ago, Keileon said:

 

On 8/4/2020 at 9:02 PM, olympe said:

@Keileon You can easily circumvent most restrictions regarding off-site links by using a group full of dragons that you name accordingly.

"Let's Discuss Trades"

"Forum Name is XXX"

"I'm XXX on [insert other site]"

"Always looking for..."

"2nd gen SA kin"

"2nd gen Prizes and Prizekin"

"Especially bronze Tinsel"

"ND is auto"

"Thanks for reading"

 

You... get the idea.

We really need a designated wishlist dragon...

That is very much not my point.

In a way, my response strengthens your point. We need sensible rules so people don't have to use loopholes (to rules that are hard to find, if at all) in order to use the hub to its fullest. ;) 

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Bumping this because there is still confusion from people that get banned not knowing why they did because the rules aren't clear.

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49 minutes ago, Tinibree said:

Bumping this because there is still confusion from people that get banned not knowing why they did because the rules aren't clear.

 

Personally I'd like to hear more from people in those situations, what *exactly* was unclear, what *exactly* did they do that they didn't know was against the rules? I did see the recent posts in Tiny Little Questions, I'm just saying in general I think it would be helpful to know more about what is actually happening when it comes to unclear bans. If a more detailed/explicit rules section is added to the Hub, we should make sure it includes all the things people are unclear about. 

 

So, for instance, this thread shows that the whole 'applicable to more than one person' is confusing and unclear for many, so it should be made more clear what exactly that means (no auto-abandoned asks, no specific code, no addressing a single person, etc). It's also obvious that IOUs and/or contacting off-site is unclear, so it should be made clear that IOUs aren't allowed and it's allowed to put off-site contact info as long as you *also* put some sort of want. (Oh, and it currently says 'off-site links are forbidden', which probably doesn't help the confusion about *mentioning* off-site contact info...) What else? What other things are getting lost or misunderstood? I just went back through this thread and those seem to be the biggest things talked about, but I'm sure there are other things that need to be clarified. 

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Honestly my current gripe is that nowhere does it actually say 'rules' on the page. It just says you 'should' so-and-so, it doesn't come across as a requirement. How can you break rules if nowhere does it say something is a rule? Like, many people would say one 'should' name their zombie fodder so others know not to use in lineages, but that's not a rule, its just a nice thing to do. I'm currently fighting rares for a lyrical, I've named the rares something that references it'll be a lyrical for other peoples convivence. 

 

The warning statement reads more as rules than the should statement. (You will be banned if you do Not head this feels a lot more like rules) And I think more people follow that for that reason. (no off-site, no random rambling)

 

So like, thing one, make it clear the 'should' is a 'must', preferably referring to it as a rule. And then the rest you mentioned is everything off the top of my head. Oh! Weather or not you can say what code you have if its Naughty would be nice just as a bullet point. I think most people assume you can't but I can easily see people that don't see anything against it and just copy-pasting the code into the Have section.

Edited by Tinibree

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People who are ARE banned should be told EXACTLY WHY, not just given the ban. That's the biggest issue, for me. Right now there are players who got a temp ban and dare not go back to the hub as they don't know just what they did wrong.

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2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

People who are ARE banned should be told EXACTLY WHY, not just given the ban. That's the biggest issue, for me. Right now there are players who got a temp ban and dare not go back to the hub as they don't know just what they did wrong.

 

Hopefully this could be incorporated when more detailed rules are put in, there will be a list of specific rules so when banned it could just go 'you broke such-and-such rule' or something. I'm not assuming anything regarding whoever actually does the banning, but imo it seems that these things go hand-in-hand, if there are clear rules spelled out it'll be easier to give the reason for the ban. 

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I don't use the trading hub that much, but the rules do confuse me, so I only post trades saying "Looking for XXX"

 

...Hopefully that's not against the rules.

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Sadly there will ALWAYS be people who misunderstand any rules.... Some of them deliberately....

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My personal thought is that if you can be banned for not following the rules, then the rules need to be explicitly stated.  You should NOT be able to be punished for rules that are only inferred.  I think that a short and clear message of: 

 

By posting this trade, you agree to have read and understood the rules and regulations regarding trading (insert link to more detailed rules here)  Questions regarding the rules should be directed here(link to help forum)

Edited by Nectaris

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I'll be honest here, I rarely use the trading hub in fear of being banned because someone decides to report my 'want' for not being perfect to the rules.

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Didn't realize this had been bumped and I'm thankful it was, I've been thinking about it a lot since trading was very difficult for me this Holiday season.

I ended up getting 2 temp bans from the Hub within about a month because I didn't know what I was doing wrong. I asked in Tiny Little Questions and was like "oh okay. I should avoid doing this then". Still ended up with a perm ban on posting in the Hub and I'm still really upset about it because posting on the Forums and in the Discord still results in maybe only half of all users seeing the trade available.

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3 hours ago, Nectaris said:

My personal thought is that if you can be banned for not following the rules, then the rules need to be explicitly stated.  You should NOT be able to be punished for rules that are only inferred.  I think that a short and clear message of: 

 

By posting this trade, you agree to have read and understood the rules and regulations regarding trading (insert link to more detailed rules here)  Questions regarding the rules should be directed here(link to help forum)

 

This is exactly how I feel. If the rules are not explicitly stated anywhere - in one single definitive place - it is hard to figure out just what they are.

 

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6 hours ago, Nectaris said:

My personal thought is that if you can be banned for not following the rules, then the rules need to be explicitly stated.  You should NOT be able to be punished for rules that are only inferred. 

Very much this! I have seen too many people asking where the rules are or what the rules are because they were banned and have NO idea why.

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Still unhappy that descriptions have a page of rules when there's no consequence for doing them wrong while trade hub get a few strikes before they're out permanently, over a blurb of extremely unspecific guidelines.

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I haven't had issues with trades, aside from seeing the occasional person who doesn't seem to understand what "free" means ("this egg is FREE for 2 hatchlings" - pal, I have news for you XD ), but on the other hand I've been on the forums a long time and it still wouldn't have occurred to me that asking for a specific egg - especially one you know is in the AP - would violate the 'specific user' rule. 

 

Now that trading has been around a while, I think there are a LOT of users new enough that trading has "always" been an option for them, and they've never visited the forums at all - and may not be familiar with any of the rules that came with forum trading.  If making a simple bullet-point list of trade rules on the Action page would reduce violations, I'm all for it.  I want more potential trading partners, not fewer!

Edited by sorenna

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Having read in TLQ that if a player is not on forum there is no way they will never know why they were banned from the trade hub, and that - as many have pointed out - the "rules" are vague, to say the least, could we perhaps have a "help" page linked to the hub with a bullet list of reasons this might happen (or in the case of someone who has been banned, why this HAS happened !)

 

Trading Hub.

 

When setting up a public trade:

 

  • Describe what you’re offering and/or help others understand what types of offers you are looking for. If creating a public trade, your message should be applicable to many people using the trading hub, not just a specific person.
  • Warning: Use of trading messages for any purpose except those stated above may result in disciplinary action, such as loss of ability to create public trades. Off-site links are forbidden.
  • Trades should not be bumped more than once in 24 hours unless significantly changed (e.g. you add something to the trade.)

 

You may be suspended or banned from trading if you post:

 

  • spam - e.g. song lyrics or "hahahaha" or so on
  • trades aimed at an individual player
  • trades asking for a specific egg (as in "the egg with code 12345")
  • off-site links, links to the forum or links to groups (mentioning a group by its number is OK)
  • If you bump your trades too often

 

Maybe even suggest that if you feel a need to, you can go to the forum and contact a mod ?

 

I have probably not included everything that is an issue, but could this fly ?

Edited by Fuzzbucket

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9 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

including to groups

Eh? But those are not offsite. :blink: Why would they be forbidden if they help describe what I'm looking for?

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Thanks for this suggestion. Good idea. And we need info on how often we are allowed to "bump" trades.

 

The person who indirectly launched this discussion in TLQ and here is just doing it again 😬

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