Trade Hub "Information/Rules" Page

[animatedrose]

Yep, that would be where "make your Want apply to many people" translated into "make your Want apply to one or many people" in another language. I forget which, but it was a sad case all around for that guy because by the time anyone important actually saw it, the guy had already requested to be burned and had left DC.

 

Granted, DC is an English-based game so you usually get slammed with the "know English or else" argument with that one, which I can get...but when translations like that occur, looking at the wording would probably be a good idea.

[Sketch]

Just randomly thought of this while reading through the replies:

 Wouldn't requesting an AP'd egg be the same as asking for one of the specific Thuweds when they come through? I've seen plenty of people ask for certain Thuwed hybrids or offspring from one of the pairs for that week. Is that not technically the same thing as asking for one of the eggs you sent to the AP because it's just a matter of hunting for the right thing at the right time? Or is it just somehow different because one is a Thuwed and one isn't?

Edited August 4, 2020 by GalacticSketch

[random_dragon_collector]

30 minutes ago, GalacticSketch said:

Just randomly thought of this while reading through the replies:

 Wouldn't requesting an AP'd egg be the same as asking for one of the specific Thuweds when they come through? I've seen plenty of people ask for certain Thuwed hybrids or offspring from one of the pairs for that week. Is that not technically the same thing as asking for one of the eggs you sent to the AP because it's just a matter of hunting for the right thing at the right time? Or is it just somehow different because one is a Thuwed and one isn't?

 

That's an excellent point--that kind of request is absolutely aimed at one person.

 

Second everything @Zimtie posted on the first page--

[Keileon]

1 hour ago, GalacticSketch said:

Just randomly thought of this while reading through the replies:

 Wouldn't requesting an AP'd egg be the same as asking for one of the specific Thuweds when they come through? I've seen plenty of people ask for certain Thuwed hybrids or offspring from one of the pairs for that week. Is that not technically the same thing as asking for one of the eggs you sent to the AP because it's just a matter of hunting for the right thing at the right time? Or is it just somehow different because one is a Thuwed and one isn't?

I assume the difference is that a large number of players know about Thuweds and would be hunting for them, whereas the same isn't true for some random Moonstone you bred while you were locked, but it's still a double standard. If you can't ask for your own egg to be returned, you shouldn't be able to ask for a specific 2G Thuwed-- or even a specific 2G SAltkin.

[Tini]

1 hour ago, GalacticSketch said:

Just randomly thought of this while reading through the replies:

 Wouldn't requesting an AP'd egg be the same as asking for one of the specific Thuweds when they come through? I've seen plenty of people ask for certain Thuwed hybrids or offspring from one of the pairs for that week. Is that not technically the same thing as asking for one of the eggs you sent to the AP because it's just a matter of hunting for the right thing at the right time? Or is it just somehow different because one is a Thuwed and one isn't?

lmao i'd not thought of that but that is pretty common every time he breeds them. galactic out here with the galaxy brain. I mean a technical explanation would be other people can try to trade for those thuweds to offer on their trade but....that doesn't hold much water. So, I really think asking for APed eggs in general should be fine now. 

[Fuzzbucket]

2 hours ago, GalacticSketch said:

Just randomly thought of this while reading through the replies:

 Wouldn't requesting an AP'd egg be the same as asking for one of the specific Thuweds when they come through? I've seen plenty of people ask for certain Thuwed hybrids or offspring from one of the pairs for that week. Is that not technically the same thing as asking for one of the eggs you sent to the AP because it's just a matter of hunting for the right thing at the right time? Or is it just somehow different because one is a Thuwed and one isn't?

 

It is the same, and I THINK people have been told to stoppit - that said, it still happens. Just as people will ask for a 2 gen SA from - say - Marrionetta's pumpkin - and they name it. 

[Tawanda001]

Honestly if they don't want people stating they'd like to be contacted through the forums they need to make that want box a whole lot bigger. For instance I might want 3g spriter alt lineages, but not from ones I already have. So how do I say I want this, that, or these, but not those ones because I already have them? I don't want people to breed something I won't accept, so please pm for more details because I can't spell it all out on the hub.

And I never really considered the forums as off site either, just never gave it that much thought, to me it's all DC.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Tawanda001

[pinkgothic]

47 minutes ago, Tawanda001 said:

And I never really considered the forums as off site either, just never gave it that much thought, to me it's all DC.

AFAIK the forums don't fall under the "no offsite links" rule, but rather under the rule that it's not a "want". Telling people how they can reach you just isn't what you're wanting to trade for. What you can do is name a dragon "'Tawanda001' on the forums" and stick it at the top of your scroll, so it's not like pointing people to the forums is generally disallowed, it is just verboten in the trading message.

 

(For the record, I find the trading rule status quo severely broken, on multiple levels, so none of what I'm posting here is meant to encourage the status quo, I'm just here to explain what I've gleaned about it over time where I think it'll help understand things better, and better work with the constraints. / Though if anyone's curious, cliff notes: I'd like the rules to be better accessible, ideally in multiple places; I'd like the rules to be changed in several regards; and I generally find a situation that punishes people that are clearly posting in good faith obviously broken. But I've posted about my thoughts at length before and I assume approximately no one will be helped by my posting it again.)

[Kaini]

Just dropping in to clarify a few things -

 

IOUs can't be completed at all within the site's mechanics, which I assume is why they're not mentioned specifically in the rules. You can't do one on-site anyway... and elsewhere (such as the forums and discord) it's pretty explicitly disallowed. Since it's impossible on the site alone, I don't see a reason to put that rule there. If anything, updated the rules on the forum to also mention IOU talk is not permitted on the hub, either.

 

Searching for a specific egg by code is not permitted. This violates the 'applicable to many people' rule. Yes this includes specific 2g thuweds and 2g SAs. If one person and one person alone has it, don't ask for it specifically. Try 'A 2g thuwed I don't have' or similar.

 

This doesn't mean word codes that don't exist yet - I say 'want some form of Kaini code' because it doesn't exist and isn't targeting anybody, and there are many variations. Now if 'Kaini' with perfect caps like that already exists and one person has it... again, no.

 

Saying 'PM x on the forum' is fine if you have an actual want listed. if that's the only thing, eh. You need to list an actual want.

 

 

 

All these consequences are mod overseen - and there's a reason there's multiple warnings, now. If you continue the same behavior... yes, you will continue to receive bans. But we're not just tossing them out without looking at the context, etc.

 

If you have questions about a trade hub ban or why it occurred, contact a moderator and we can clarify for you so it doesn't happen again. Continue that same behavior heedlessly... and it will happen again.

[Fuzzbucket]

3 hours ago, Tawanda001 said:

Honestly if they don't want people stating they'd like to be contacted through the forums they need to make that want box a whole lot bigger. For instance I might want 3g spriter alt lineages, but not from ones I already have. So how do I say I want this, that, or these, but not those ones because I already have them?

 

The way to do THAT is to have a group, and say not the SAs in group 1678406295

[Tawanda001]

24 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

The way to do THAT is to have a group, and say not the SAs in group 1678406295

That could be a big group and people probably don't want to sift through it to see what I already have, not to mention that means making them all public, not something I really want.

I can do work arounds, like sticking to the forums, but I certainly don't think it's worth a punishment if you just want to clarify a hub trade opportunity by offering a 'feel free to pm'

[KrazyKarp]

If mods need to be coming into this thread to clarify rules (just like last time when we were all trying to solve the mystery of what the hub rules are), that's enough evidence that there needs to be more detailed rules on-site. I've always thought of things as follows

 

1. The "applicable to many people" is beating around the bush of the actual rule, which is "Don't reference a specific dragon, such as a specific code, thuwed, SA, and CB Prize." I didn't understand the "applicable to many people" as meaning that at first, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

2. The DC forums are off-site, and so from what the hub rules say, would be disallowed. That exception needs to be specified on-site.

 

Also why do we need to list an actual want if we say "PM x on the forum"? Because that's way more helpful in getting a trade done than the people who just say "W: Offers", the latter of which I assume is allowed. But the latter doesn't actually help people understand what the trader wants, either. It seems inconsistent to me.

[Paintra]

Just now, KrazyKarp said:

If mods need to be coming into this thread to clarify rules (just like last time when we were all trying to solve the mystery of what the hub rules are), that's enough evidence that there needs to be more detailed rules on-site. I've always thought of things as follows

 

1. The "applicable to many people" is beating around the bush of the actual rule, which is "Don't reference a specific dragon, such as a specific code, thuwed, SA, and CB Prize." I didn't understand the "applicable to many people" as meaning that at first, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

2. The DC forums are off-site, and so from what the hub rules say, would be disallowed. That exception needs to be specified on-site.

 

Also why do we need to list an actual want if we say "PM x on the forum"? Because that's way more helpful in getting a trade done than the people who just say "W: Offers", the latter of which I assume is allowed. But the latter doesn't actually help people understand what the trader wants, either. It seems inconsistent to me.

 

Exactly! The clarification is nice, but again- this is all clarification via the forums. It would be nice if this was actually listed on the site (Which is also the point of the thread ). Is there even a way for people to contact moderators about a ban through the site itself? 

 

As for "IOUs aren't possible through the site, so there's no reason to add it as a rule." Well... clearly asking for IOU trades is against the rules. Would adding "Asking for IOU trades is not allowed." really be that big of a deal? I don't know why people seem so insistent to keep the rules vague and not change them whatsoever. Clearly, it's causing people problems... Why not fix that?

[DuskOfTheStars]

I honestly do not understand why the full rules aren't onsite ... you can't know about rules that literally aren't there and as stated - not everyone uses forums. If you don't know it's a rule because it's not listed onsite at all - you'll probably think it's valid. Because why wouldn't you? There's nothing saying it's against the rules onsite! And the full hub rule list is hard to find on forums.

[Fuzzbucket]

23 minutes ago, KrazyKarp said:

Also why do we need to list an actual want if we say "PM x on the forum"? Because that's way more helpful in getting a trade done than the people who just say "W: Offers", the latter of which I assume is allowed. But the latter doesn't actually help people understand what the trader wants, either. It seems inconsistent to me.

 

Actually, as one who does ask for "offers" that's what I want. Something that would interest me. I'll breed something pretty that turns out to be the OTHER BREED for instance, or something that I bred for a trade that was rejected and I already have a sib. There's nothing specific I want just now (except whatever it was I just didn't get !) but I'll often start a new line based on something I was "offered" at random. So - please let me say that !

[KrazyKarp]

37 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

 

Actually, as one who does ask for "offers" that's what I want. Something that would interest me. I'll breed something pretty that turns out to be the OTHER BREED for instance, or something that I bred for a trade that was rejected and I already have a sib. There's nothing specific I want just now (except whatever it was I just didn't get !) but I'll often start a new line based on something I was "offered" at random. So - please let me say that !

Oh no, don't get me wrong; I didn't suggest to disallow simply asking for any offers. I just meant it doesn't make sense to allow just "Offers" and not "PM x on the forum" (in my opinion). There shouldn't be an issue with either.

[Naruhina_94]

I agree the rules on site should be clearer and listed in game. And i'm sorry you got banned, I personally wouldn't have seen the need, but I'm not a Mod.

I honestly disagree so much on not being able to discuss a trade with someone interested, not even mention that you would like to be contacted. The interaction is so limited that even normal trading is often as hard as buying a house without speaking or writing, but just with hand gestures. It seems to me that in order to prevent potential harrassing the entire feature is crippled. People aren't responsable for the actions they take, so asking for IOUS or being contacted is forbidden. Like, what? It's like stating that since people do car accidents while driving drunk you forbid people to drive at all... ehr, no.... you forbid the alchool... In this case you forbid people to complain about IOUs that aren't fufilled, as it is not the site responsability what you've got into.

Asking for a 2nd gen thuwed from a specific pair is yes, tecnically targeting the one person who caught it, but the user who's asking for it could not even know that the egg has been bred or caught at all! How can that being seen as harassment of any sort? As I speak there are 379 public trades. I don't have time to watch each single one of them to check if what i'm looking for is already been offered, I may aswell breed the best lineage I have and ask for it. I don't see how is that of any harm to just state something I want, as I do in any other trade. I'm not pointing a gun and demanding the egg. I merely stated I would offer something for it, it's up to them to read about it or being interested. If I have a group called 12345 with 2nd gen silver shimmer from all silver shimmers existing in game except one and I ask for "a 2nd gen from a shimmer that I dont own" that is targeting a specific user, therefore even what we're doing now by giving group names should not being allowed. Also my request of a specific dragon doesn't forbid all the other users to offer something completely different that I may end up interested in trading.

 

 

 

Would it be against the rules if I just write: My name on the forum is Naruhina_94 without asking to be contacted or that I want IOU? I'm not expliciting asking anything or targeting anyone but me... 

Edited August 4, 2020 by Naruhina_94

[Keileon]

2 hours ago, Kaini said:

Just dropping in to clarify a few things -

 

IOUs can't be completed at all within the site's mechanics, which I assume is why they're not mentioned specifically in the rules. You can't do one on-site anyway... and elsewhere (such as the forums and discord) it's pretty explicitly disallowed. Since it's impossible on the site alone, I don't see a reason to put that rule there. If anything, updated the rules on the forum to also mention IOU talk is not permitted on the hub, either.

But this doesn't make any sense. It's impossible to do ANY real communication on the site alone aside from trade messages, so if someone drops their email or Discord tag-- WITHOUT being a member of either Discord server-- neither of these are explicitly against the rules, and there's no reason for someone to think they can't do that or ask for an IOU in their trade message. This vague "it's not possible on the site so even though it's not allowed we're not putting the rule there" seems obtuse and serves no purpose but to punish people who aren't on the forum or servers.

 

Searching for a specific egg by code is not permitted. This violates the 'applicable to many people' rule. Yes this includes specific 2g thuweds and 2g SAs. If one person and one person alone has it, don't ask for it specifically. Try 'A 2g thuwed I don't have' or similar.

Does this include things like "want 2G thuwed swap, Aeon x Chrono auto" or similar? Are these trades reportable? Because they happen literally every time the Thuweds are bred or a spriter breeds their alts.

 

This doesn't mean word codes that don't exist yet - I say 'want some form of Kaini code' because it doesn't exist and isn't targeting anybody, and there are many variations. Now if 'Kaini' with perfect caps like that already exists and one person has it... again, no.

What if you use "Want a Kaini code" and that exact code exists, but you're either unaware of the fact or you phrased it in a way that suggests you were?

 

Saying 'PM x on the forum' is fine if you have an actual want listed. if that's the only thing, eh. You need to list an actual want.

This doesn't make sense either. Can I say "My wants are complicated. Offer away, but you'll have better luck PMing Keileon on the forum"?

Responses bolded + colored.

[olympe]

@Keileon You can easily circumvent most restrictions regarding off-site links by using a group full of dragons that you name accordingly.

"Let's Discuss Trades"

"Forum Name is XXX"

"I'm XXX on [insert other site]"

"Always looking for..."

"2nd gen SA kin"

"2nd gen Prizes and Prizekin"

"Especially bronze Tinsel"

"ND is auto"

"Thanks for reading"

 

You... get the idea.

We really need a designated wishlist dragon...

[Sketch]

4 minutes ago, olympe said:

@Keileon You can easily circumvent most restrictions regarding off-site links by using a group full of dragons that you name accordingly.

"Let's Discuss Trades"

"Forum Name is XXX"

"I'm XXX on [insert other site]"

"Always looking for..."

"2nd gen SA kin"

"2nd gen Prizes and Prizekin"

"Especially bronze Tinsel"

"ND is auto"

"Thanks for reading"

 

You... get the idea.

We really need a designated wishlist dragon...

 

But if people are going to circumvent the restrictions anyway by doing this, what's the point of having that as a rule? 

[olympe]

@GalacticSketch Beats me. But it is what it is.

[Lyncerta]

What about asking about returning one egg from auto abandoned multiclutch? From celestial or holiday dragon.

It seems to be fine, because there can be 2-4 people who could catch one of those eggs. Unless there's one person who decided to catch all of them, then trade is targeting a specific person and should be reported, I guess.

 

Also, asking about direct descendant from specific spriter alt doesn't seem to be against the rule of applicability to many people in all of the cases. Yes, there's only one specific person who can breed those, but there's always a chance that they decide to abandon multiple to AP, or that they traded some of those to other people.

Not to mention that not every player on Dragon Cave knows that only one specific person owns this one specific, very cool looking variant of dragon.

Whatever goal the rule of 'not aiming the trade to specific person' acomplishes, it also prohibits doing things that don't seem bad or harmful. I think it's not ideal, and it's also possibly one of the reasons people keep breaking this rule.

[Keileon]

4 hours ago, olympe said:

@Keileon You can easily circumvent most restrictions regarding off-site links by using a group full of dragons that you name accordingly.

"Let's Discuss Trades"

"Forum Name is XXX"

"I'm XXX on [insert other site]"

"Always looking for..."

"2nd gen SA kin"

"2nd gen Prizes and Prizekin"

"Especially bronze Tinsel"

"ND is auto"

"Thanks for reading"

 

You... get the idea.

We really need a designated wishlist dragon...

That is very much not my point.

[schenanigans]

1 hour ago, Lyncerta said:

What about asking about returning one egg from auto abandoned multiclutch? From celestial or holiday dragon.

It seems to be fine, because there can be 2-4 people who could catch one of those eggs. Unless there's one person who decided to catch all of them, then trade is targeting a specific person and should be reported, I guess.

 

Also, asking about direct descendant from specific spriter alt doesn't seem to be against the rule of applicability to many people in all of the cases. Yes, there's only one specific person who can breed those, but there's always a chance that they decide to abandon multiple to AP, or that they traded some of those to other people.

Not to mention that not every player on Dragon Cave knows that only one specific person owns this one specific, very cool looking variant of dragon.

Whatever goal the rule of 'not aiming the trade to specific person' acomplishes, it also prohibits doing things that don't seem bad or harmful. I think it's not ideal, and it's also possibly one of the reasons people keep breaking this rule.

 

You can rename your dragons to ask for a returned abandoned egg but asking for specifically the codes of the eggs abandoned is not allowed. The people who catch the abandoned eggs are also not obligated to return them, so I think that's why this walks the line of not allowed. 

 

Asking for a 2G from a specific Spriter's Alt is also not allowed, as ultimately only one or two people may have what you are seeking at that time, only one person is able to breed it, etc. No matter how you slice this, it is specific and targeted, whether at the owner of the offspring or the owner of the alt. Asking for a lineage including them of any generation 3rd or higher is fine, as that widely opens the playerbase capable of breeding what you are seeking. 

 

These are bad or harmful because they are 1. not available for other players to offer and 2. the more important one, targeted at one specific player and can be regarded as harassment. Basically, don't fish for things that are limited and targeted at what only one person may have. 

 

All in all, I really do wish there would be more clarity in the hub rules as well. I have to constantly warn people I know who ask for IOUs on their hub trades so they don't get banned, or have to try and explain why their trade requests aren't allowed. More communication doesn't hurt, and only helps, especially when people can apparently get banned for things they aren't aware of. It's not fair to ban someone who doesn't frequent the forums because of a forum rule they aren't aware of that isn't listed in the hub rules, for example. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by schenanigans

[animatedrose]

I know that some people have put together Google Docs of the rules to pass out to others on the unofficial Discord and such, specifically because the rules are basically forum-only and long buried despite being in full effect. I forever stand by the notion that important information like feature rules should be on-site, not on what has officially been declared an off-site platform. Using the "forums and site are connected enough, it's fine, the rules don't need to be on-site" doesn't fly, I'm sorry that some people seriously believe that everyone is on both. It's not true, it's never been true, it will never be true.

 

Those rules really should be on-site. So what if it'll make things look cluttered for a bit? At least everyone will be on the same page for once regarding the Hub rules and bans for things people cannot feasibly know will minimize. Because those bans do add up eventually. There is nothing wrong with more on-site communication regarding these rules. Less is not always more, sorry to say.