Give advance notice of sprite changes

[Fuzzbucket]

It was great that we had advance notice that the Frills were being pulled - it meant those of us who had space could quickly get some before the deadline. Support.

[missy_]

24 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

It was great that we had advance notice that the Frills were being pulled - it meant those of us who had space could quickly get some before the deadline. Support.

I would definitely support advance notice if a dragon was being pulled. That is a different request.
 

A dragon’s sprite changing is not the same as a dragon being completely pulled from the Cave.

 

I would also support a notice, like HeatherMarie mentions in her fifth paragraph, if it was a notice-only format not meant for discussion and could only be discussed after the sprite was released.
 

But truly, I don’t have strong feelings about it one way or the other. I am fine with not knowing every detail of every sprite change. 

 

I would rather not see drastic changes of sprites. In that case, they should just make a new Dragon.

[HeatherMarie]

Updated the OP to emphasis what is actually being asked. Not asking for extra discussion/drama, just notice. 

[TCA]

I have a problem with this:

 

People will immediately proceed to take the discussion off the forums into spaces where it can't be effectively moderated.

[Tini]

I also foresee suggestion threads that are like 'suggestion: do not change sprite x!' 

[Jazeki]

@TCA and @Tini- These sorts of things have already been happening regardless of this suggestion as there are "unofficial" fan sites, discord servers, threads, etc. that exist outside of what happens here. 

 

The suggestion threads about specific sprites are locked as spam on the DC forums anyway. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Jazeki

[HeatherMarie]

2 hours ago, Jazeki said:

@TCA and @Tini- These sorts of things have already been happening regardless of this suggestion as there are "unofficial" fan sites, discord servers, threads, etc. that exist outside of what happens here. 

 

The suggestion threads about specific sprites are locked as spam on the DC forums anyway. 

 

 

This. There is no possible way to stop people from talking about DC, in any regard, outside of the forum. That already happens. (Heck, there have been off-DC websites dedicated to viewbombing!) I don't think something that has always been and will always be out of DC's control should be a reason to not help users cope with a significant change. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by HeatherMarie

[Ashywolf]

I'm of the impression that this just feels like it will feed the flames. Opening up early discussion will stir things up and echo the sentiment of "please don't change these sprites", while other users try and defend said sprite changes. The decision is not really in the hands of users and although that may not feel great, it's following a goal of style consistency and quality. That's a given, no discussion can (or should) stall that from happening if it is TJ's wish. Plus, the last thing you want to see as an artist is people voicing that they don't want to see your art make it in. It's not comfortable for any of the mentioned sides. 

 

At risk of coming across as inconsiderate, I am not sure providing "advance warning" for the purpose of comforting users really outweighs the potential cons of the decision.

 

edit: I know it's been clarified this is not for "extra discussion/drama", but I can't see how this is avoidable.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Ashywolf

[Nine]

I'd like this. I wish I had gotten a pic of a Thunder lineage I've been doing since 2011 before they changed. An advanced notice would have let me get a snapshot of that and even some others like my 2 dozen Split lines, etc.

 

People are so overly paranoid about drama and controlling how others can react to news. If people want to complain offsite who cares, they do that anyway. It will happen anyways. This would be a nice and helpful change, and even a little bit of an improvement towards better communication. One can brainstorm about all sorts of drama boogeymen like it's the end of the world, but for me personally this would have an actual, tangible benefit so I'd be happy with the head's up.

[HeatherMarie]

 

1 hour ago, Ashywolf said:

edit: I know it's been clarified this is not for "extra discussion/drama", but I can't see how this is avoidable.

 

It's actually fairly simple, or it should be. Lock the News thread immediately so no one can post a response, with a large/bold notice that on-forum discussion before the actual change won't be tolerated. Any threads/posts that do pop up can just be deleted, mods have done that in the past with other things. A long time ago mods would *immediately* lock any thread about Neglected dragons because we weren't supposed to talk about them on-forum. I don't see why that couldn't happen now. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Nine said:

I'd like this. I wish I had gotten a pic of a Thunder lineage I've been doing since 2011 before they changed. An advanced notice would have let me get a snapshot of that and even some others like my 2 dozen Split lines, etc.

 

People are so overly paranoid about drama and controlling how others can react to news. If people want to complain offsite who cares, they do that anyway. It will happen anyways. This would be a nice and helpful change, and even a little bit of an improvement towards better communication. One can brainstorm about all sorts of drama boogeymen like it's the end of the world, but for me personally this would have an actual, tangible benefit so I'd be happy with the head's up.

 

(bolding for emphasis) Yes. Exactly. 

 

Honestly, this suggestion might actually *help* with the whole drama/complaining issue, because a *lot* of the complaints come from a place of knee-jerk reaction to a huge sudden unexpected change. There is no possible way to control what happens outside the forums, but in-forum discussion *can* be contained until the actual change happens. And whatever hypothetical drama might possibly come from it, it's *going* to help users. Users have specifically said so. 

 

Sprite updates will always be met with debate/complaints/etc, that's never going to change. But if it's possible that a little advance notice might help users deal with it better and lessen all those emotions, I don't think hypothetical drama concerns are enough of a con to not do it.

[missy_]

2 hours ago, Ashywolf said:

I'm of the impression that this just feels like it will feed the flames. Opening up early discussion will stir things up and echo the sentiment of "please don't change these sprites", while other users try and defend said sprite changes. The decision is not really in the hands of users and although that may not feel great, it's following a goal of style consistency and quality. That's a given, no discussion can (or should) stall that from happening if it is TJ's wish. Plus, the last thing you want to see as an artist is people voicing that they don't want to see your art make it in. It's not comfortable for any of the mentioned sides. 

^^ This. The more I consider the idea, I cannot support it, even if it is only a locked announcement.  It seems like an opportunity for unnecessary bad feelings on many fronts. 
 

1 hour ago, HeatherMarie said:

Lock the News thread immediately so no one can post a response, with a large/bold notice that on-forum discussion before the actual change won't be tolerated. 

I recall how there have been complaints in the past about locking threads without allowing discussion to continue. The whole “won’t be tolerated” mindset is something that I heartily hope will not be encouraged. I hope for free and open discussion (polite and civilized), so this feels like a step backward to me.

 

This suggestion would have (some) people upset about impending sprite changes, others upset they cannot yet discuss it, artists upset about people being upset. Granted, not everyone will be upset. Some won’t care one way or the other, while others will be glad to see a notice. I think it’s better to leave it the way it is now. I do not mind and have no issues whatsoever with minor sprite tweaks. IMO, if something is going to change drastically then it should probably be a new dragon, but that is just me, and only my opinion.  In the end, it is still TJ’s site, so if a sprite gets turned on its head, I can’t control that. Would it be upsetting? Probably. But I survived the Silvers changing (it was a whole lotta drama); I missed the Golds changing as it happened before I started playing. (The old Gold sprites are cute, though!)

[Fuzzbucket]

2 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

It's actually fairly simple, or it should be. Lock the News thread immediately so no one can post a response, with a large/bold notice that on-forum discussion before the actual change won't be tolerated. Any threads/posts that do pop up can just be deleted, mods have done that in the past with other things. A long time ago mods would *immediately* lock any thread about Neglected dragons because we weren't supposed to talk about them on-forum. I don't see why that couldn't happen now. 

 

Honestly, this suggestion might actually *help* with the whole drama/complaining issue, because a *lot* of the complaints come from a place of knee-jerk reaction to a huge sudden unexpected change. There is no possible way to control what happens outside the forums, but in-forum discussion *can* be contained until the actual change happens. And whatever hypothetical drama might possibly come from it, it's *going* to help users. Users have specifically said so. 

 

Sprite updates will always be met with debate/complaints/etc, that's never going to change. But if it's possible that a little advance notice might help users deal with it better and lessen all those emotions, I don't think hypothetical drama concerns are enough of a con to not do it.

 

Yes indeed. And there's nothing wrong with certain  things not being tolerated. I'm on two forums where ANY mention of politics is shut down at once. No problem. And in terms of this game - anything on neglecteds was shut down at once, for instance.

 

Like Nine, there are some lineages I would have taken screenies of if I'd known a change was coming.

[schenanigans]

5 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

 Sprite updates will always be met with debate/complaints/etc, that's never going to change. But if it's possible that a little advance notice might help users deal with it better and lessen all those emotions, I don't think hypothetical drama concerns are enough of a con to not do it.

 

I'm not particularly a fan of this suggestion and am also going to point out that this isn't the case for everyone. You're going to have a lot of users angry that there's an impending change and even angrier that they can't discuss it and get their opinions heard. People are going to want to express "I really like xyz of this sprite so please don't change it!!" and be disappointed that A. they can't even voice this opinion anywhere that matters, B. angry if it gets removed or changed. An early announcement is only going to give users a false sense that they can provide input on the changes prior to them being done and some are going to be upset they can't comment on the announcement thread and start suggestion threads. Which is entirely valid for them to do so, but it becomes a whole other can of worms.

 

I am sure an announcement thread with no comments will only stir the pot for the announcement thread with the changes, which will be open for comments. I personally prefer a bandaid approach with a situation like this. One and done.

 

While I understand this may benefit some users, it comes with a lot of negative backlash potential that I do believe should be taken into account and not ignored. 

[DragonLady86]

Sprite updates already have a negative backlash. You don't actually know if this would make it worse, yet multiple people have said it would be a better experience for them. What is wrong with at least trying this next time updates go through?

[HeatherMarie]

1 hour ago, DragonLady86 said:

Sprite updates already have a negative backlash. You don't actually know if this would make it worse, yet multiple people have said it would be a better experience for them. What is wrong with at least trying this next time updates go through?

 

This. This this this. Right now we don't *know* how exactly things will go if something like this is implemented. Will there actually be a ton of drama and backlash? Maybe, but *we don't know*. That's all just assumption right now. What we *do* know, because many people have *said* so (not just in this thread but in update threads themselves), is that many people would like to know about a planned change before it actually happens. That might *help* some of the usual drama and backlash. Of course if advance notice with no discussion makes things worse or makes the responses to the update even more angry/upset/etc, then it'll be clear advance notice didn't go over well and it probably won't happen again. But there is no proof it will happen that way yet. 

 

I don't understand the idea that 'maybe this will make drama worse so it shouldn't happen even though it will definitely help people'. That doesn't make sense to me. And it kind of feels like that attitude isn't taking into consideration that we *already* have drama and backlash and hurt feelings etc etc etc *when* sprite changes happen with no notice. All of that stuff already happens. We don't *know* that advance notice would make any of that worse. But maybe it's something to at least *try* next time there are changes planned, because we *do* know that it will help some users.

[Jazeki]

I think my comment about TJ previously announcing sprite changes got eaten (or I posted it in some other thread and my memory is going). But this would in no way be some brand new thing on TJ's part as evidenced here: Circa 2015. Communication on this site waxes and wanes, but the inevitability of someone being upset over sprite changes does not. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Jazeki