2021-02-17 - Abandoned Page Updates

[HeatherMarie]

1 hour ago, Tawanda001 said:

Time is relative. I suppose a 12 hour wall is better than two days, but if 12 hour walls are a continuous issue it will still have a detrimental effect on those of us who enjoy AP hunting.

And if the AP is still full of eggs from one breeder you still have a SINGLE player 'influencing' the AP and what other people are able to do, regardless of who last abandoned what. I fail to see how that changes in any meaningful way.  

 

Agreed. TJ said "The entire point is to spread out the ability to influence the AP amongst multiple people", not prevent walls themselves, but how is one single breeder being able to wall-up the AP for hours at a time accomplishing the 'spread out the influence'? 

 

If this change actually, truly makes a huge difference in the amount of time a wall blocks the AP, that would be awesome. But honestly I'm still not understanding the logic behind how that would happen. People picking up and reabandoning wall eggs does absolutely nothing towards actually ending the wall, walls only end when all the wall-eggs are actually taken and kept. I don't understand how simply showing different amounts 'per-abandoner' of re-abandoned eggs *from that same wall* will do anything. Maybe it will. Maybe it will somehow help in a significant way. Just can't wrap my head around how it would. 

[random_dragon_collector]

16 minutes ago, HeatherMarie said:

 

Agreed. TJ said "The entire point is to spread out the ability to influence the AP amongst multiple people", not prevent walls themselves, but how is one single breeder being able to wall-up the AP for hours at a time accomplishing the 'spread out the influence'? 

 

If this change actually, truly makes a huge difference in the amount of time a wall blocks the AP, that would be awesome. But honestly I'm still not understanding the logic behind how that would happen. People picking up and reabandoning wall eggs does absolutely nothing towards actually ending the wall, walls only end when all the wall-eggs are actually taken and kept. I don't understand how simply showing different amounts 'per-abandoner' of re-abandoned eggs *from that same wall* will do anything. Maybe it will. Maybe it will somehow help in a significant way. Just can't wrap my head around how it would. 

 

Yeah, his explanation just doesn't make sense to me.

[Duskwing472]

3 hours ago, Tawanda001 said:

Time is relative. I suppose a 12 hour wall is better than two days, but if 12 hour walls are a continuous issue it will still have a detrimental effect on those of us who enjoy AP hunting.

And if the AP is still full of eggs from one breeder you still have a SINGLE player 'influencing' the AP and what other people are able to do, regardless of who last abandoned what. I fail to see how that changes in any meaningful way.  

 

So by your words, if a person bred only messies, or they bred 2g/3g checkers, there would be no difference? They're considered the same problem?

[Uther_Pendragon]

Actually, my family and I were playing around in the ap for a couple hours this morning, and during that slice of time, (cherry-picking if you will), most of the eggs were from one breeder. BUT they were all different types of eggs, which, to me, is a lot better than one single breed of boredom. (We were also able to siphon out some cb's, too, which was great. (Thank you to those who toss 'em!))

 

Is anyone preparing a mass breed of their one-breed army so we can really get a full pic of what it will be like? I'm reserving judgement until I see how that works.

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, Sacred_DuskRose472 said:

 

So by your words, if a person bred only messies, or they bred 2g/3g checkers, there would be no difference? They're considered the same problem?

Well, yes, they are the same problem.

[Duskwing472]

7 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Well, yes, they are the same problem.

 

Why?

[random_dragon_collector]

Just now, Sacred_DuskRose472 said:

 

Why?

 

I, for one, am looking for caveborns.

[Uther_Pendragon]

4 minutes ago, Sacred_DuskRose472 said:

 

Why?

For me, if it's just one breed, for more than a couple hours, I don't care what the lineages are. 

   I'm mostly a cb hunter, but will choose some 2 gens if the pairing is unusual. I love variety!

 

  My internet, out here in the boonies, is really bad, so biome hunting can be difficult, which is why I like the ap, even if the times get rather high (unpopular opinion that). I also can have trouble remembering which egg is which, so visually seeing the types of eggs in the ap helps a lot.
 

[Duskwing472]

15 minutes ago, random_dragon_collector said:

 

I, for one, am looking for caveborns.

 

So when people scoop from biomes and toss to ap, that's good for you, but you hate when people breed their dragons to the abandoned page?

[Firefury Amahira]

5 hours ago, Keileon said:

I would hardly call this "exploiting". It took a lot of effort and time to make walls before the update, and it's going to take even more now, which should offset the amount of walls we see. We'll just have to see what the long-term results of the change are, both in terms of frequency/duration of walls and the (currently atrocious) AP times, before making a real judgement, I think.

Can confirm the "lot of effort and time", a full mega massbreed of my entire almost-2000 blacktips basically takes me the better part of an entire day (and that isn't counting the time it takes to corporealize 1,000 celestials first!) No plans to do a mega massbreed any time soon though, I'm trying a "rotary cannon" approach to hitting the ratios and breeding 100 pairs a day instead.

 

I think at the moment we're at a point where talking isn't going to do much until the change has been in play through a few big massbreeds and we can get some real data on how the change impacts how walls work their way through the AP. I get the impression that the "per abandoner" is to mitigate, not eliminate single-breeder walls while also limiting the potential for those massbred eggs to die behind a display limit.

[Stromboli]

okay, i'm attempting to visualize this for my understanding. this is a hastily made visual just based on how i'm understanding the new mechanic, not necessarily actual behavior.

 

Spoiler

Say you have an abandoned pile: One user has bred and dumped a whole bunch of eggs, but only some of them are shown. The rest remain stacked behind the visible-eggs-per-abandoner limit. They're there, but only the top couple are visible.

 

Now, if a bunch of other users grab out of that stack, and re-abandon the eggs, whoever picked them up and re-abandoned them is now the "abandoning" user. These eggs don't go back into the breeder's stack, because they're now abandoned by someone else. Since they don't go back into the original stack, other things in the AP get forced back, which can create a wall.

 

 

But we've still only got the top row of slots that are many eggs deep with the same person's bred eggs. so if someone else comes along and grabs from any of those other slots, then other non-wall things pop back in again. We may still end up with walls, but it's also easier for non-wall things to appear, since non-wall things only need to clear that thinner layer of re-abandoned eggs to start showing again, instead of waiting for the entire wall to move.

 

 

 

 

[random_dragon_collector]

13 minutes ago, Sacred_DuskRose472 said:

 

So when people scoop from biomes and toss to ap, that's good for you, but you hate when people breed their dragons to the abandoned page?

 

No, not really.  I breed my z-scroll to the AP, I know that others will, too.  But if it's a nice mix of lineages and caveborns, that is ideal.  I really only collect z-codes--z-code bred dragons without z-code parents aren't useful to me--but I just breed those myself.  Then my z-fails fill up the AP from time to time!  I'm probably abandoned 100-200 eggs in a couple hours from time to time--but never 2000 or more.  I also like to scroop up three caveborns from the AP then trade them for 1 z-code.  It's relaxing and fun.

Edited February 22, 2021 by random_dragon_collector

[Arcy]

12 minutes ago, Stromboli said:

okay, i'm attempting to visualize this for my understanding. this is a hastily made visual just based on how i'm understanding the new mechanic, not necessarily actual behavior.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Say you have an abandoned pile: One user has bred and dumped a whole bunch of eggs, but only some of them are shown. The rest remain stacked behind the visible-eggs-per-abandoner limit. They're there, but only the top couple are visible.

 

Now, if a bunch of other users grab out of that stack, and re-abandon the eggs, whoever picked them up and re-abandoned them is now the "abandoning" user. These eggs don't go back into the breeder's stack, because they're now abandoned by someone else. Since they don't go back into the original stack, other things in the AP get forced back, which can create a wall.

 

 

But we've still only got the top row of slots that are many eggs deep with the same person's bred eggs. so if someone else comes along and grabs from any of those other slots, then other non-wall things pop back in again. We may still end up with walls, but it's also easier for non-wall things to appear, since non-wall things only need to clear that thinner layer of re-abandoned eggs to start showing again, instead of waiting for the entire wall to move.

 

 

thank you, this is a very helpful visual (assuming this is indeed what TJ meant)! ^^

[FortyTwo]

Is it worth breeding my 2000+ mint army to test the new changes? Just think it's worth testing how it holds up to 800 something of the same breed.

[Falorni]

11 minutes ago, FortyTwo said:

Is it worth breeding my 2000+ mint army to test the new changes? Just think it's worth testing how it holds up to 800 something of the same breed.

Absolutely imo, nothing like a proper stress test to see how well the system's working!  unleash the full mint carnage

Edited February 22, 2021 by Falorni

[Uther_Pendragon]

I believe so, FortyTwo! I'm very curious to see the changes in action with a huge breeding like that, if you don't mind putting in all that time and effort.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Uther_Pendragon

[Charu]

Seconded. It would be interesting to see how the changes hold up against a wall similar to the blacktip scale. The blacktip wall would sometimes happen for 2 days, yes?

[random_dragon_collector]

31 minutes ago, FortyTwo said:

Is it worth breeding my 2000+ mint army to test the new changes? Just think it's worth testing how it holds up to 800 something of the same breed.

 

Just give @Lagie time to clear her slots!

[Firefury Amahira]

6 minutes ago, Charu said:

Seconded. It would be interesting to see how the changes hold up against a wall similar to the blacktip scale. The blacktip wall would sometimes happen for 2 days, yes?

On a full army mega massbreed when AP times are already over 5 days, yeah. My personal record was something like 50-someodd hours. AP times were seldom that high when my blacktips hit though, so a full army massbreed could generally clog the works for 36-48 hours easily. Something else I keep track of when possible on my stats sheet I linked previously. ^^;

[Confused Cat]

@FortyTwo Please send Mints for science, but maybe not all of them?

[Charu]

3 minutes ago, Firefury Amahira said:

On a full army mega massbreed when AP times are already over 5 days, yeah. My personal record was something like 50-someodd hours. AP times were seldom that high when my blacktips hit though, so a full army massbreed could generally clog the works for 36-48 hours easily. Something else I keep track of when possible on my stats sheet I linked previously. ^^;

Very informative for the hard numbers. Let’s see what happens

[FortyTwo]

So is it better I breed them as normal (to different breeds) or breed them to each other/metals/holidays? What are we trying to accomplish? The latter would produce a more prominent wall because it wouldn't be interspersed with other breeds from me. TJ's mechanic makes it so only 12 eggs abandoned by me show up at a time.

 

Should the other smaller mint army owners I know breed theirs?

[Fuzzbucket]

1 hour ago, Sacred_DuskRose472 said:

 

Why?

 

See below:

 

1 hour ago, Uther_Pendragon said:

For me, if it's just one breed, for more than a couple hours, I don't care what the lineages are. 

   I'm mostly a cb hunter, but will choose some 2 gens if the pairing is unusual. I love variety!

 

  My internet, out here in the boonies, is really bad, so biome hunting can be difficult, which is why I like the ap, even if the times get rather high (unpopular opinion that). I also can have trouble remembering which egg is which, so visually seeing the types of eggs in the ap helps a lot.
 

 No-one really wants an AP containing only one breed - whatever the lineages are.

 

1 hour ago, random_dragon_collector said:

No, not really.  I breed my z-scroll to the AP, I know that others will, too.  But if it's a nice mix of lineages and caveborns, that is ideal.  I really only collect z-codes--z-code bred dragons without z-code parents aren't useful to me--but I just breed those myself.  Then my z-fails fill up the AP from time to time!  I'm probably abandoned 100-200 eggs in a couple hours from time to time--but never 2000 or more.  I also like to scroop up three caveborns from the AP then trade them for 1 z-code.  It's relaxing and fun.

 

This kind of variety is what makes the AP fun.,

[soullessheartofsteel]

1 hour ago, Sacred_DuskRose472 said:

So when people scoop from biomes and toss to ap, that's good for you, but you hate when people breed their dragons to the abandoned page?

 

The issue is when one person's eggs are everywhere. If there's over a thousand Blacktips in the AP, all from the same person, it can get irritating and disappointing for people who go to the AP. It's less bad if they're all different breeds, but some people's scrolls still end up being largely populated by descendants of one user's dragons, simply because that breeder is so prolific.

 

10 minutes ago, FortyTwo said:

So is it better I breed them as normal (to different breeds) or breed them to each other/metals/holidays? What are we trying to accomplish? The latter would produce a more prominent wall because it wouldn't be interspersed with other breeds from me. TJ's mechanic makes it so only 12 eggs abandoned by me show up at a time.

 

Should the other smaller mint army owners I know breed theirs?

 

It shouldn't matter whether or not the Mints are purebred. We're trying to get as many of the same species from the same breeder out so that we can see if the AP still makes a wall with the new change.

Since the restriction is by breeder and not by species, getting smaller army owners onboard shouldn't be necessary.

[purplehaze]

36 minutes ago, soullessheartofsteel said:

Since the restriction is by breeder and not by species, getting smaller army owners onboard shouldn't be necessary.

In fact, it would probably just confuse the issue. A single breeder army is probably best right now to determine how the mechanic works.