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Get Rid of Name Exclusivity

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30 minutes ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Tag surnames are a very good reason for NOT allowing this.

How?

 

If names are exclusive and someone predicts what names the surname's owner will want next, they could steal those names before the owner can use them.

 

If names are not exclusive, someone could deliberately copy the exact names of the owner's real dragons.  But if codes are a thing, and if the owner displays their scrollname on the dragon's page, you can check that, and the view/n/ page would give you a list of all the dragons by that exact name, which would help you figure out whether there might be counterfeiting going on in this particular case.

 

There are two ways to counterfeit dragons with tag surnames that work just fine right now:

- Make up a new name that follows the naming pattern.

- Use a name that the tag's owner already has, but add an extra space between the main name and the surname.

 

It seems to me that it would actually be easier to spot exactly duplicate names than look-mostly-the-same names, because the exact duplicates would all show up together on the view/n/ page.  (And if people can use exact duplicate names, they may not feel the need to make almost-but-not-quite-the-same names.)

 

Would it help if any dragon with a duplicate name got a little link to the relevant view/n/ page under its name?  Here's a mockup:

view-n-link-mockup.png.3a719b4557c862bc92ad00132f652bcb.png

This would make it obvious that other dragons do have the name, which means that if you see that link, you know to check, and if you don't see the link, you know it's the only dragon by that name.

Edited by Pilauli
Realized I forgot to clarify something. I knew what I meant!

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I'm all in favor of getting rid of exclusivity. It's getting harder and harder to come up with creative names for dragons as the years go along. Some names I'd love to use, only to find someone else has taken it. That's just my 2 cents though. 

 

WB

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1 hour ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Tag surnames are a very good reason for NOT allowing this.

Literally how?

 

Here's a really good example of why I think your argument fails: TJ himself has said he can't use Thuwed names because people have already taken them the moment the breed's name becomes known, or earlier if people guess it.

 

Surnames don't actually solve anything, they just give another venue for a person with a unique naming style to find that they can't use a particular name. It doesn't even have to be out of malice. If some player picks up an egg where both parents have the same surname, like Freaky or Rainfur, they might decide to name the egg after the parents.

Edited by Keileon

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Exactly what Pilauli & Keileon said.

I think I actually have a dragon called Rainfur but since I tag them no issue.

And taking a follow-up name is no more 'malice' than not returning an auto abandoned egg. It is your dragon and you get to play however you want with it. You can't blame the taker! Especially a newbie.

The fault lais with the sistem. As it would affect Terafreaky (in this case) play stile and that is unfair.

Why would YOU get to play how you want and somebody else won't?

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16 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

That's your goal. It isn't everyone's. Just saying.

I'm looking at what benefits the most amount of people. Name exclusivity benefits a very tiny, tiny group of users. Plus...

 

2 hours ago, Fuzzbucket said:

Tag surnames are a very good reason for NOT allowing this.

You're realllly grasping at straws now trying to make an argument.

 

15 hours ago, olympe said:

I think that argument goes both ways. There's my side, which says that exclusivity is fine and you can find countless ways around it if the name is taken, and that exclusive names have their benefits. And there's your side, which says that only this exact name [insert your name of choice] will do, and nothing else, and every other argument pales in comparison. 

I don't really understand why there's even sides to this. Why is it bad to want a specific name and nothing else? How is that hurting other players? Why should I be required to create a workaround if a name I want is taken? How does that benefit the game?

 

Never mind the fact that the side favoring exclusivity literally has never produced a single reasonable argument in this entire thread.

 

Again, I emphasize: this benefits a ton of users. Exclusivity benefits very little. The choice is very obvious there.

Edited by KrazyKarp

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4 hours ago, MissK. said:

This is solved by displaying codes, which is no harder to check than names with the same phrase but different spaces/spellings (easier even, I would say). And if it's a long lineage it's impossible to tell "instantly" anyway.

Codes are usually harder to memorize than a name. Also, many people preferred code display on mouse-over. This, however, is never instant and quite hard on mobile.

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most of the anti-exclusivity obstacles here people are bringing up do have solutions. /view/n/ can have an alternative layout, inbred checking at a glance is already prone to error but can still be done with codes or with more certainty through an external website, imposter names should be double checked under nonexclusivity the same way they should be checked right now. there is no alternative solution to "i want to name my dragon in a specific way." the only solution to that is, "name your dragon something else." i still do not understand why other players' names should have an impact on how i manage my scroll when no other aspect of player action has any influence over my own actions to my own dragons.

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29 minutes ago, Sundew said:

most of the anti-exclusivity obstacles here people are bringing up do have solutions. /view/n/ can have an alternative layout

An alternative layout that could involve looking through hundreds of Bobs, if not thousands. Even if your own dragons are displayed on top, what if you're looking for the original which happens to not be on your scroll? It's not always easy as with Missingno, where you can tell at a glance whether that's the dragon you're looking for or not.

 

Inbred checking is something I only trust to external fansites by now, unless the lineage is no higher than 4th gen. Still, for those pesky low-gens, it's still easier to memorize names than codes because most names are not a random string of five characters.

34 minutes ago, Sundew said:

i still do not understand why other players' names should have an impact on how i manage my scroll when no other aspect of player action has any influence over my own actions to my own dragons.

The same way that other players' hunting and breeding affects your chances to hunt and breed, to find something but a wall in the AP or how much a dragon costs in the market. (And, yes, I'm still against AP walls literally taking out a big part of gameplay unless you raise what someone else forces you to raise.)

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18 minutes ago, olympe said:

The same way that other players' hunting and breeding affects your chances to hunt and breed, to find something but a wall in the AP or how much a dragon costs in the market. (And, yes, I'm still against AP walls literally taking out a big part of gameplay unless you raise what someone else forces you to raise.)

there's a difference between other players impacting gameplay for dragons that are not on my scroll and gameplay for dragons that are. I do not own any dragon in the AP or cave, and my dragons' offspring and market eggs don't exist and therefore are not on anyone's scroll until we press a button that conjures them into existence. I have no ownership or influence over them until I actually have them in my possession, and that makes sense. I DO own the dragons on my scroll and should be able to do with them as I please.

Edited by Sundew

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2 hours ago, Sundew said:

there's a difference between other players impacting gameplay for dragons that are not on my scroll and gameplay for dragons that are. I do not own any dragon in the AP or cave, and my dragons' offspring and market eggs don't exist and therefore are not on anyone's scroll until we press a button that conjures them into existence. I have no ownership or influence over them until I actually have them in my possession, and that makes sense. I DO own the dragons on my scroll and should be able to do with them as I please.

 

Very much agree with this. We pretty much have full control over dragons on our own scroll, we can kill them, freeze them, breed them to any other on-scroll dragon we like... But we can't name them the way we want if *anyone* else in the entire decade-plus of DC has used that name. Doesn't make sense. A *lot* of names are on dead scrolls, too, which makes even less sense, why should a user that hasn't played since 2011 be able to dictate how I can name my dragon? 

 

Surname tags and wanting to be able to 'instantly' identify specific dragons are, imo, not good arguments against this suggestion because those things are *already* issues that happen. I've said it before, I *have* dragons that have 'fake Thuweds' in their lineage. I also have dragon lineages where dragons are deliberately named in a way that makes it impossible to tell 'instantly' if it's inbred, using spaces and one-letter replacements to make it *look* inbred even if it's not. That already happens. That's not something that would suddenly be an issue if names stopped being exclusive, it's *already* an issue and there are *already* ways around it (look at the code, check for inbred on a fansite, etc).

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6 hours ago, olympe said:

Codes are usually harder to memorize than a name. Also, many people preferred code display on mouse-over. This, however, is never instant and quite hard on mobile.

 

I absolutely agree about codes on mobile, it's a pain in more ways than one, not being able to code-hunt at all on mobile for example. Which is why I'm all for displaying codes in text. 

 

When it comes to inbred checking you said you use external tools anyway except for short lineages, but if it's only a 3rd or 4th gen then surely you don't need to memorize anything; the codes would all be visible on the screen so you can compare them. Depending on the names it's already very much not guaranteed that you can tell at a glance if something is inbred. 

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Exactly what Sundew said!

 

I invite you to 'instantly tell' me 'without checking for codes' if this is inbreed https://dragcave.net/lineage/5G5vv

As you can see you won't be able to tell and I could make it to 4-5G without you knowing. So this 'issue' is regardless of current or imagined sistem.

 

I don't understand what your need would be to look for all the dragons named Bob. So what if they're thousands? You should only care about what is on your scroll since you DON'T own the others.

 

How can you tell who is the first Bob if a dragon can be renamed at any time? How would you tell is the first *named* when you can only see is the first *bred*. Maybe I took a 2008 and named him Bob yesterday. It makes no sense

 

Edit: everything is harder on mobile! Yet you can hold the image of a dragon untill the link with the code pops up just like I did bellow

Screenshot_20201025-002731.png

Edited by camelia2

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1 hour ago, camelia2 said:

I don't understand what your need would be to look for all the dragons named Bob. So what if they're thousands? You should only care about what is on your scroll since you DON'T own the others.

Maybe because I saw a dragon named Bob that perfectly fits into a lineage project I'm working on, and I'd like to ask for a sibling or offspring? Which, while not officially part of the game, is quite possible on the fo5rums. (And, yes, I usually offer an at least equivalent exchange when asking for breedings.) We don't always have the codes or links to a dragon's lineage handy, after all.

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8 hours ago, olympe said:

Maybe because I saw a dragon named Bob that perfectly fits into a lineage project I'm working on, and I'd like to ask for a sibling or offspring? Which, while not officially part of the game, is quite possible on the fo5rums. (And, yes, I usually offer an at least equivalent exchange when asking for breedings.) We don't always have the codes or links to a dragon's lineage handy, after all.

 

I highly doubt this issue would actually come up all that often. I'm sure there will be thousands of Bobs, but I doubt you will be sifting through them to find what you are looking for (that often)... I am sure the Bob you need for your lineage project would come up naturally in a different aspect of the game, such as encountering someone else with offspring, on the hub, or in the AP - in which case, if the owner name doesn't show, you wouldn't necessarily find out who the owner of that Bob is anyway. If someone on the forums shared the Bob as theirs, then you would know, and wouldn't have to look through all the Bobs. I don't think you actually use view/n/ NOW to find randomly named dragons for lineages you could use. And before you counter argue with "Oh well what if I saw that Bob that one time and all I remember is the name" then you at least have a chance of finding said Bob now via this search feature rather than having to hope you come across the lineage or the code again 🤷‍♀️ Not to mention since names can be changed at any time, if I was saving a lineage to ask the owner later for offspring I would be saving the code anyway! 

 

As for your other arguments, I found them to be quite distasteful. You completely disregarded someone's want to NOT add descriptors to the name they want and proceeded to "save" your own for them. You also misspelled the name, by the way. You also completely bashed any person ever who has a common name or a special person in their life with a common name, good job. It doesn't matter if someone has a father with the most common in the world name like "John" or some such. Maybe that name has meaning to them, and you couldn't possibly have any knowledge base to weigh in on that. Rude. 

 

Saying names are easier than codes is subjective as well. Some people might find the codes easier to recognize. Not everyone names their dragons. There was ALSO a suggestion that Wyms added a mock up to, to include the code as well as the name in the lineage, which I was very much a fan of. That would be really nice even now, without duplicate names. You even contradict your own "well what about inbred checking" argument with adding that it's easier to check with an external tool than by yourself 🤦‍♀️

 

Needless to say, I support this suggestion. After having played a game where there is no name exclusivity, it is so nice to be able to name my creatures what I want to name them without any type of concern for others.... And I am actually far more creative with names there than I am here, because I know I don't have to spend time deviating around an idea and can instead spend the time finding a name that I find to be fitting of the colors, the creature, and whatever name themes I like. Here I tend to just slap my generational marker on a dragon with a super basic descriptor or name that takes hardly any thought because it is just so tedious. People have even taken my generational marker and added it to my dragon's offspring so obviously the "but mah tags!" argument is moot as well. 

 

 

 

Edited by schenanigans

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As Schen points out, this theoretical is so near unlikely to inconvenience you that it might as well be non-existent compared to the number of times someone will be inconvenienced by *not* being to name their way. The only way you can't somehow get a link or code is either by screenshot (which only occurs off-site with communication) or because you only remember the name Bob, which is *much* worse with name exclusivity because which Bob might you be looking for here? Bob the Destroyer? Bob Destroyer of Worlds? Bob the Unbuilder? Bob Loss? Bob Unholy Keysmash? And in this hypothetical, what are the odds that all of the *rest* of the lineage is equally common in its names that you can't track Bob down searching any of them?

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2 hours ago, Shadowdrake said:

As Schen points out, this theoretical is so near unlikely to inconvenience you that it might as well be non-existent compared to the number of times someone will be inconvenienced by *not* being to name their way. The only way you can't somehow get a link or code is either by screenshot (which only occurs off-site with communication) or because you only remember the name Bob, which is *much* worse with name exclusivity because which Bob might you be looking for here? Bob the Destroyer? Bob Destroyer of Worlds? Bob the Unbuilder? Bob Loss? Bob Unholy Keysmash? And in this hypothetical, what are the odds that all of the *rest* of the lineage is equally common in its names that you can't track Bob down searching any of them?

 

Agreed. Honestly, it feels like these theoretical scenarios are grasping at straws. Is it possible a few people *might* be inconvenienced by non-name-exclusivity? Of course. Is it possible a *lot* of people will be incredibly happy and actually play more often and do more with their dragons if name-exclusivity is dropped? Heck yes, as proven by this thread (and many others over the years). Of course there are going to be the random very specific scenarios where having lots of dragons named exactly the same will be frustrating, but then again that's true of *any* change to the site at all. But right now, as it stands, it's *already* really frustrating for *many* people *because* of the name-exclusivity. 

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I would rather keep name exclusivity, but I would absolutely support dead dragons losing their names, and scrolls left inactive for 2 or 3 years having all names released.  That should cover the people who only drop in at holidays but are still somewhat 'regular' players, while freeing up names for reuse/keeping abandoned scrolls from 'hoarding' names forever.

 

Tangentially related: I would also really like it if dead dragons went back to displaying as "Deceased" instead of their codes.

Edited by sorenna

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34 minutes ago, sorenna said:

I would absolutely support dead dragons losing their names, and scrolls left inactive for 2 or 3 years having all names released.  That should cover the people who only drop in at holidays but are still somewhat 'regular' players, while freeing up names for reuse/keeping abandoned scrolls from 'hoarding' names forever.

 

This would negatively affect any named dead dragons with offspring e.g. this deadline. I'm also personally someone who has gone on hiatuses for over a year and returned, and am not in favor of any form of automatic wiping names because it can be so discouraging to return and have all of that progress lost

Edited by Sundew

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6 minutes ago, Sundew said:

 

This would negatively affect any named dead dragons with offspring e.g. this deadline. I'm also personally someone who has gone on hiatuses for over a year and returned, and am not in favor of any form of automatic wiping names because it can be so discouraging to return and have all of that progress lost

 

I'm sympathetic to that, as I have some deadlines on my own scroll!  But in exchange for name availability it's something I'd be willing to sacrifice.  

 

Possibly dead dragons' names could be altered in some way: put them in parentheses/italics like a code, perhaps? That way their former name would be released for reuse, but there wouldn't be codes/unnamed dragons suddenly turning up in deadlines. 

 

On the other hand, I really would like deceased dragons to display as "Deceased."  It would negatively affect some deadlines, but positively affect deadlines like this one - there's got to be a balance somewhere, and nothing is going to make every player happy.  Perhaps to give both parties something they want, only unnamed dead dragons would display as "Deceased," and named ones would have (Former Name Of Dragon) with the original name becoming available again?

 

I am also sympathetic to people who go on hiatus, but I feel that a 2-year or 3-year period is a good compromise for most.  (I notice you said your own hiatus was "more than a year" - was it 2+ years?)  I wish TJ was here to scare up some statistics on how many scrolls that go 3 years without a login are ever revisited; I would guess it's a minority, but of course I don't have data for that feeling.  It could be discouraging to come back and have to start over with names, but on the other hand it could also be an opportunity.  I was just in the 'make scroll renaming possible' thread, and I'm sure what applies to scroll names also applies to dragon names: sometimes people outgrow their name choices.  I have definitely changed some names that I chose back when I started playing in 2010, because it turned out Homestuck/Harry Potter/Anne Rice was no longer something I wanted to use for naming...  :P 

 

Ultimately, though, I'd support it because I think active players should have priority over inactive players.  Leaving the site for 3 years bumps someone down the priority list when it comes to whose wants should be addressed; if you showed up at a restaurant after walking away for three hours, would you expect your table to still be available and your meal waiting?  Active players who are using the site and offering input should have the greater 'weight' in gameplay and site decisions, compared to people who might or might not ever come back.

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Okay, that's not what this thread is about...? If you want dead dragons to drop their names I'm pretty sure there's already a suggestion for that, or you can make your own. This is kind of derailing and hijacking the thread.

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10 hours ago, MissK. said:

 

I absolutely agree about codes on mobile, it's a pain in more ways than one, not being able to code-hunt at all on mobile for example. Which is why I'm all for displaying codes in text. 

 

When it comes to inbred checking you said you use external tools anyway except for short lineages, but if it's only a 3rd or 4th gen then surely you don't need to memorize anything; the codes would all be visible on the screen so you can compare them. Depending on the names it's already very much not guaranteed that you can tell at a glance if something is inbred. 

 

Oh, you can totally code-hunt on mobile! Just long press on the egg you want to check, and (for me at least) both android and ios displays a link preview window where I can check the code. It's a bit slower compared to the "hover over it" method, but I found all of my great codes that way. 

 

Edited by Windy

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1 hour ago, Windy said:

 

Oh, you can totally code-hunt on mobile! Just long press on the egg you want to check, and (for me at least) both android and ios displays a link preview window where I can check the code. It's a bit slower compared to the "hover over it" method, but I found all of my great codes that way. 

 

 

That is a great tip, but seems to depend on the phone (or browser idk). I get the link display but it is cut off unfortunately.

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19 minutes ago, MissK. said:

 

That is a great tip, but seems to depend on the phone (or browser idk). I get the link display but it is cut off unfortunately.

 

Oh, that makes sense. :( 

 

EDIT: @MissK. Oh, wait! You have to tap on the incomplete link and then it will show it fully, I almost forgot that I had the same problem before! 

 

Edit2: You're welcome, I'm glad it helped! ^^ Sorry for the off topic too.

Edited by Windy

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6 minutes ago, Windy said:

 

Oh, that makes sense. :( 

 

EDIT: @MissK. Oh, wait! You have to tap on the incomplete link and then it will show it fully, I almost forgot that I had the same problem before! 

 

Oh wow you're right! Thanks for that, a few extra steps but still much better than not being able to do it at all. 

 

Sorry for the off topic...

 

I maintain that, while I also use name links to quickly reach dragons sometimes, this is a very niche function for other people's dragons. It's only ever useful if someone displays a scroll name after all, otherwise you have to know the username of the person already and they have their scroll visible and you comb through it to locate the dragon to verify it's theirs.

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I fully support the "delete names on a dead dragon" thing, because I mostly forget about unnaming a zombie fodder before killing... And since my dragons follow a name scheme, the dead dragon is blocking the name for me (if not successfully revived).

 

I'm not really sure about my feelings regarding the "names should stay exclusive" thing. I don't know if that would change so much beside the value of a very popular name. ;) Do people loose anything when others can give their dragons the same name as they did?

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