Get Rid of Name Exclusivity

[pinkgothic]

3 hours ago, Murkydepths said:

I recall when the cave emptied at each hour, when abandoned eggs were usually at 5 days, when there were hundreds of user made sprits being worked on, when the forum was less structured and stagnant, when you would see hatchlings frequently in forum signatures. 

Hey, Murkydepths, sorry for picking this out of your post, but I think you may be unintentionally misconstruing a few things here:

 

1 - the cave emptied each hour because it didn't scale well with its users. These days, egg generation scales with the number of users that are online (browsing the biomes), which is why the only time you'll likely see it empty is for limited releases, where even that algorithm can't keep up with the demand. This is site functionality that changed. In other words, the way it is currently designed, it should never empty out, regardless how many people are online. (Sometimes egg generation fails and then the cave is empty for that reason, but that's a different cup of tea.)

 

2 - the abandoned egg page was at 5 days because mass breeds happened less frequently (and even further back in time because it used to block the cave). Mass breeds have various suggestion topics in this forum because they're really impacting the variety in the AP and people don't engage with it very much when there is an egg "wall", which pushes the times down. If the AP is in a normal state, it still comfortably gets up to around the 5d mark, because that's the point where people can use an Incubate and hatch an egg reasonably quickly. (Mass breeds were literally not possible way back when because even the oldies only had that many dragons to breed. These days some people literally have thousands of the same species.)

 

3 - there was a complete overhaul of how the Dragon Requests subforum works, and most of the old concepts were archived without being completed, since they didn't match the new guidelines / structure in the one or other way.

 

4 - a lot of the activity you used to see on the forum has moved to the official Dragon Cave Discord. I personally find this very unfortunate as I'd prefer not to use Discord at all, but that's definitely where the hustle and bustle is.

 

In other words, none of those four things have anything to do with site popularity. (I don't think this is an argument against your overall impression, just to be clear - I just think those examples are not well-chosen, and you might not realise that they aren't, so I wanted to explain.)

 

That said, Dragon Cave is a pet site people who don't want to play dress-up with their creatures can go to (I am one of them), so it'll likely always have its niche.

 

The observation that established players "have nothing left to collect and trade except names" seems really odd to me, by the way. I tried trading for a name exactly once and that went nowhere. I tried giving someone a name once and that... also went nowhere - they didn't ever get back to me, despite their quoted enthusiasm for the name. Neither of these things discouraged me from name-trading, that's not what I'm trying to say - I'm trying to say that once is exactly the amount of times that I've wanted to engage in name-trading, in twelve years of playing. I don't think I'm an unusual case in that regard.

 

What keeps me engaged are lineages (and to lesser degree, catching name codes for a friend ❤️).

 

I'll grant you that name exclusivity once was a great way to kick my creativity into gear. Unfortunately, that stopped being the case about four years ago. The clever methods that made excellent, unique names then have stopped being reliable and turned naming into a chore now, since there are so many named dragons and they're just getting more numerous every day. Trying to vy for unique names is just really not much fun any more, so after trying a couple with clever methods, I revert to uninspired ones like turning the dragon's code into something pronouncible, which I find aesthetically questionable, but better than keeping it unnamed.

 

I'm sure it is still great for some people, don't get me wrong! Not everyone feels as I do. But I do just have under mostly-proudly named 8000 dragons, am holding onto about a hundred names Just In Case, and would still very like exclusivity to go away, because I care about my future self's frustration levels, which are getting higher as time goes on.

 

To be clear, thank you for pitching in, though! It's good to hear everyone's opinions.

[w0rmg0d]

I haven't read the entire topic but I saw a few of the posts.

 

On the one hand, my competitiveness really wants to keep name exclusivity. On the other hand, I don't really have a good reason for it other than that I want to win, which... is sort of selfish. 

 

What about a compromise where, like, the first Dragon to be named Bob will have a star or something next to the name, at least on the view/n/Bob page. That way, one person could still feel satisfied that they got The Bob, but others could still use the name. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by w0rmg0d
grammar

[Keileon]

7 minutes ago, w0rmg0d said:

What about a compromise where, like, the first Dragon to be named Bob will have a star or something next to the name, at least on the view/n/Bob page. That way, one person could still feel satisfied that they got The Bob, but others could still use the name. 

I'm not strictly against this, but what if Bob then has his name changed to something else? Does the second Bob get the star?

[w0rmg0d]

Just now, Keileon said:

I'm not strictly against this, but what if Bob then has his name changed to something else? Does the second Bob get the star?

 

I would say so, yeah 

[MissK.]

 

9 hours ago, w0rmg0d said:

What about a compromise where, like, the first Dragon to be named Bob will have a star or something next to the name, at least on the view/n/Bob page. That way, one person could still feel satisfied that they got The Bob, but others could still use the name. 

 

9 hours ago, Keileon said:

I'm not strictly against this, but what if Bob then has his name changed to something else? Does the second Bob get the star?

 

 

I don't mind this idea, my only concern would be that it might be a lot of information to store for such a small reason. The site would need to save the exact order in which possibly hundreds or thousands of dragons were named x, to shift the 'star' to the next one if there was a rename. However I'm not at all familiar with coding so I don't actually know how much of an issue that would be.

[Pilauli]

Well, the suggestion to sort all of the dragons in the order that they received that name would mean tracking that anyway, so if that's implemented, marking the dragon which had the name first shouldn't be too tricky.

[MissK.]

Oh I must have slightly misunderstood that suggestion then, I figured the dragons would be displayed by age and not by when they received the name. But yes in that case it would indeed be the same.

[Fuzzbucket]

13 hours ago, pinkgothic said:

4 - a lot of the activity you used to see on the forum has moved to the official Dragon Cave Discord. I personally find this very unfortunate as I'd prefer not to use Discord at all, but that's definitely where the hustle and bustle is.

 

That's kind of a shame; I hadn't registered that it was THAT bad, but as I have less than zero interest in Discord, I'll miss it all. Probably just as well - I spend too much time on line as it is.  

[dragongrrl]

This idea (or variations) has been kicked around or a long time. I returned to the Cave today after a long absence, almost 4 years, but I am so pleased to see that my names (over 5500 names) are intact. I was afraid they would have been wiped or traded out, both ideas discussed at some point, and it would have been the end of my connection to the Cave if all the names were gone. The exclusivity of names has always been one of the features I liked and I have spent a LOT of time getting my names in place. I always need to be creative if I can't get a name I want and I have enjoyed that challenge in the game. I'm all for retaining the name exclusivity.

 

Have no idea what Discord is, one more thing to check on...

[Windy]

On 11/12/2020 at 12:52 AM, w0rmg0d said:

I haven't read the entire topic but I saw a few of the posts.

 

On the one hand, my competitiveness really wants to keep name exclusivity. On the other hand, I don't really have a good reason for it other than that I want to win, which... is sort of selfish. 

 

What about a compromise where, like, the first Dragon to be named Bob will have a star or something next to the name, at least on the view/n/Bob page. That way, one person could still feel satisfied that they got The Bob, but others could still use the name. 

 

I love and support this idea! 

[evilSpectra]

If names weren't exclusive, a lot more of my scroll would be named and I'd stop stressing so much about being creative enough.

 

I can't count the number of times I'll try to name something, it's taken, I say I'll figure out a different name later and then I never come back to it.

[LadyLoki]

I wholeheartedly, 110%, truly and absolutely and utterly support this.

[Aniia]

I like the idea of displaying the code with the name on the lineage page, but I would place the code above the dragon and the name below, since some names are long and need room.

 

I don't really like the name wiping because it can damage carefully crafted lineages.

 

I do think when dragons die or are released their name should be removed.

 

Another option is adding an end marker to each dragon's name. Like, all dragons on my scroll could be called _______ (Aniia), while others would be ________ (scroll name)

[PsycloneDeth]

I personally vote to keep names but un-name dead dragons.

[Pilauli]

Some people want to have names for dead dragons.  For example, I'm considering (although not much progress yet) a lyrical lineage which would have tombstones in the base.

 

There was another project I was considering where it would have been nice if all the dead dragons were just anonymous (Deceased) tombstones, though.

 

If we don't get the option to give multiple dragons the same name, then it would be nice to give users the option of un-naming any of their tombstones to anonymize them and free up the names.  I don't want it to automatically happen, though.

[fergalicious214]

I second this!  I lost a couple names I had on dragons back in 2008 and 2009 when I stopped playing and I'd love a chance to rename my original babies.

[aegagrusScholarship]

Displaying either scrollname or code below each dragon's name would work to prevent inbreeding. Although, if it's scrollname, then it might have to be exclusive names for each scroll (you can't name two dragons 'bob' but you and another person can have the same name). That has been put up as a suggestion in OP too.

 

Yeah, automatically un-naming dead dragons isn't a very good idea, but it'd definitely be nice to be able to un-name them due to some people not knowing how that works and accidentally killing named dragons (and realizing you can't get the name back anymore).

 

Also, given how laid back the rest of the game is, I still don't really understand why naming has to be such an ordeal. Some people just want to put simple names on their dragons, and that I don't really think their playstyle needs to impact anyone else. Allowing the option for creativity, such as with a 'this is the first instance of this name' marker, would be fine, but having forced name exclusivity just feels stifling. It also, at least in my case, gives me an element of 'oh god, I need to raise enough dragons as soon as possible to snag the names I want'. That just really goes against the rest of the game's laid-back, 'you need to actually wait a while' nature.

[HeatherMarie]

I'm not sure how differentiating names with scrolls names would work, a lot of users deliberately hide their scroll names from their dragon's page, even hide their scroll. Unless I'm totally misunderstanding that suggestion? 

 

58 minutes ago, aegagrusScholarship said:

 

Also, given how laid back the rest of the game is, I still don't really understand why naming has to be such an ordeal. Some people just want to put simple names on their dragons, and that I don't really think their playstyle needs to impact anyone else. Allowing the option for creativity, such as with a 'this is the first instance of this name' marker, would be fine, but having forced name exclusivity just feels stifling. It also, at least in my case, gives me an element of 'oh god, I need to raise enough dragons as soon as possible to snag the names I want'. That just really goes against the rest of the game's laid-back, 'you need to actually wait a while' nature.

 

This, so so much. Honestly, the more I think about it the more unnecessary and strange the whole thing is. I have no knowledge of coding or behind-the-scenes of making DC or anything, so it's possible there was an actual coding reason in the beginning to have exclusive names (like the fact you can get to a dragon through the /n url).... But it just doesn't really make sense for the type of game DC is, or has become. There has always been a fairly big 'freedom of playstyles' push in this game, and users are completely able to play the game 100% independently without any sort of interaction with other users at all..... And yet if some older user named a dragon NameA 5 years ago, that directly restricts you from using that name. 

 

Summarizing my views: Name exclusivity is very very restrictive, especially given how many users there are and how many dragons there are after all these years. Many people (including people posting here) get frustrated and discouraged from naming at all when so many 'good names' are just totally unavailable. The only negative thing removing name exclusivity would do would be making 'specially-named dragons' less 'special' because other people can use the name too, but that's very much a subjective thing (and, honestly, a very elitist thing). Name exclusivity does *not* foster creativity or make naming more fun or interesting, it is in no way 'creative' to be forced to N a m e L i k e T h i s as a work-around to get the name you want. 

 

I *do* want name exclusivity 100% done away with, if it happens at all. By that I mean, I don't think it makes sense to 'free up' all these names for use and change the way naming works *but* still have name exclusivity live on a per-scroll basis. If I want to name 10 of my dragons the exact same name, there is no reason I shouldn't be able to. I'd support a little symbol/note when naming that shows you already have that name on your scroll, to help prevent *accidental* same-naming.

Edited December 15, 2020 by HeatherMarie

[MissK.]

1 hour ago, HeatherMarie said:

I'm not sure how differentiating names with scrolls names would work, a lot of users deliberately hide their scroll names from their dragon's page, even hide their scroll. Unless I'm totally misunderstanding that suggestion? 

 

Yeah, showing usernames in the lineage pages would essentially remove the privacy of not displaying username on dragon pages, making that option useless. I am not a fan of it both because of this and because I think it will be too cluttered (usernames are longer than codes after all).

[aegagrusScholarship]

7 hours ago, HeatherMarie said:

I'm not sure how differentiating names with scrolls names would work, a lot of users deliberately hide their scroll names from their dragon's page, even hide their scroll. Unless I'm totally misunderstanding that suggestion? 

There was something about- since names wouldn't be unique- 'how do you check for inbreeding without clicking each dragon'. Someone suggested 'display code below the name as well' and someone else suggested 'instead of the code, display scrollname'. I'd prefer displaying codes for the same reason MissK says, but that's what the suggestion is, I guess?

[Murkydepths]

I commented earlier in the thread but now I've actually got back into playing, I want to re-iterate that I'm in favour of name exclusivity. I like that it makes you have to be creative, I like that it makes your dragons unique, I like the feeling of getting a rare name, I like being able to tell who owns a dragon when I look at AP egg, I like the naming themes and surnames people have come up with. This is just my opinion on it, but I'd be disappointed to lose name exclusivity. 

[KrazyKarp]

20 hours ago, Murkydepths said:

I like that it makes you have to be creative

This has already been disproven, and so I'd like for people to stop bringing up creativity. It's impossible to generalize exclusivity (taking this statement as the general "you") as being creative or uncreative because it depends on individual people.

 

It's one thing for people to discuss subjective factors such as enjoying the feeling of getting a name (which still strikes me as odd, but again, it's subjective). It's another thing for people to continue to bring up something that isn't true.

[Aniia]

Would it be possible for the site to automatically add a suffix for dragons named the same? Sorry if this has already been suggested, but like... Lilibeth XI. Or something.

 

Although, the site would then have to keep track of the order every single dragon was named, so that might be too complicated...

 

Just for the sake of argument, what are the negatives to fully removing name exclusivity? I don't think it would really affect the way I name my own dragons, so for people against it, what is the concern?

[aegagrusScholarship]

4 hours ago, Aniia said:

Would it be possible for the site to automatically add a suffix for dragons named the same? Sorry if this has already been suggested, but like... Lilibeth XI. Or something.

 

Although, the site would then have to keep track of the order every single dragon was named, so that might be too complicated...

That seems like a unnecessary change and definitely (in my case) would put me off naming my dragons, honestly. People want to abolish exclusivity to avoid things like that, so having it automatically added would be... targeting the wrong problem, I guess? Sorry, hopefully that makes sense.

 

Also, I'm fairly sure some other suggestions here (such as updated /n/ page showing dragons like lineage pages do) require that the order of naming be kept track of too.

 

5 hours ago, KrazyKarp said:

This has already been disproven, and so I'd like for people to stop bringing up creativity.

Same here. In my case, for example, I really doubt 'latin species names' + 'random suffix i came up with once' counts as creativity. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also, in case of intentional misspellings or s t r e t c h i n g out words or whathaveyou, uh, I guess that's creative? But it's more 'what loopholes are you able to think of and jump through to get this one name', I guess.

 

Uh, I'm probably just sounding like a broken record now. Whoops.

[Sextonator]

I want name exclusivity gone so I can name all my cave borns Bob and all my inbreds Moon Moon.